ancient J1b-F4306(xZS80) Satsurblia Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus

My perception of linguistic groups is now being nudged back to periods that are too early for the lexicon, among the fringe.

And it feels so liberating.

Dare I say that I'm very close to making a bet that the Gravettians were the actual proto-proto IEs? They would speak some sort of a pre-farming Proto - Indocaucasoeuropean. This would be the UP root of IE and Caucasian with proto - Uralic arriving later. So basically Teal/CHG and WHG were early gravettians and later contact with proto - Uralic peoples resulted in ANE. (Mal'ta settlement was essentially Gravettian or very close to it IIRC). So you would have underlying genetic and linguistic relations from Karelia to at least the Caucuses through the LGM.

Indeed there are people now speculating that "ANE" is not a real component but a fusion of something CHG /WHG like with something nowadays found in Amerindians aka ancient Siberians. It looks more and more like Mal'ta is not really representing an ancestral population but is simply a "ghost or zombie" component hiding most of the CHG and WHG ancestry in South_Central Asians. Indeed some people say Yamna fits even better as a mixture of 2/3 CHG aka Teal and 1/3 WHG.

Makes me wonder if ANE is a real component. But there are also almost as much arguments for ANE being actually a real component and the affinity of CHG or EHG to it is basically shared ancestry.
 
You probably meant me? no I am not confusing this Haplogroups with any other. Haplogroup J1b is so far predominantly found in people of North Iran and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia.

I have researched a bit on 23andme on this Haplogroup and in the Near East the only individuals with this Haplogroup so far were Kurds, Iranian People and a Jordanian guy who says His paternal origin is of Kurds from Jordan. Beside them I only remember Ricardo and some British guy.

It is a specific branch connected to West Iranic speakers in Anatolia no other people beside the Kurds have actually a decent frequency of this Haplogroup there.

http://j1bm365.blogspot.de/

i suggest you revisit the paper from this site

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html
 
My perception of linguistic groups is now being nudged back to periods that are too early for the lexicon, among the fringe.

And it feels so liberating.

Dare I say that I'm very close to making a bet that the Gravettians were the actual proto-proto IEs? They would speak some sort of a pre-farming Proto - Indocaucasoeuropean. This would be the UP root of IE and Caucasian with proto - Uralic arriving later.



There is quite some compelling evidence that Uralic and PIE have combined origins. But they share very few shared roots or words. That would indicate old age. The shared roots that can be traced, however, indicate to an old common origin: ne- for negation, m- for me, tu/tun for you. Indo-European kwi,kwe,kwo for what and who and so on is ki, ke, ku, ko in Uralic. Words that are typically not loan words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages
http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art216e.pdf
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812

Onekind of relationship between PIE and PU that would account for the apparently shared pronouns, noun endings, and basic vocabulary would be ancestral: The two protolanguages could have shared a very ancient common ancestor, perhaps a broadly related set of intergrading dialects spoken by hunters at the end of the Pleistocene. Nichols (1997) called this kind of very deep, apparently genetic grouping a quasi-stock. Unfortunately, relationships that deep cannot be demonstrated with any confidence even by state-of-the-art statistical assessment (Kessler & Lehtonen 2006).


So basically Teal/CHG and WHG were early gravettians and later contact with proto - Uralic peoples resulted in ANE. (Mal'ta settlement was essentially Gravettian or very close to it IIRC). So you would have underlying genetic and linguistic relations from Karelia to at least the Caucuses through the LGM.

No, PIE can best be described by having a North-West Caucasian substrate.

Uhlenbeck’s view can be unified with Gimbutas’ theory of a primary homeland north of the Caspian Sea and a secondary homeland north of the Black Sea (cf. 1985). What we have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors (cf. Kortlandt 1995: 94), we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Indo-Uralic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum connected with the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus.

See also this: http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2015/05/the-origins-of-proto-indo-european.html

I believe HG's had enormous language diversity. Take for instance our best proxy for the Paleolithic world, Aboriginal Australia. There is enormous language variability, with a number of language families next to a number of language isolates. New Guinea is even more diverse, literally hundreds of languages and language families. American Indians have a number of language isolates. I think this may be extrapolated to HG Europe, indicating that Europe too had enormous language diversity.

EDIT: There still are a number of issues with this theory, to wit where did the rather large amount of IE roots for agricultural words came from? There is ample archaeological evidence for wheat growing east of the Dniepr earlier than 2000 BC. How then did these roots end up in Indo-Iranian languages?
 
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There is quite some compelling evidence that Uralic and PIE have combined origins. But they share very few shared roots or words. That would indicate old age. The shared roots that can be traced, however, indicate to an old common origin: ne- for negation, m- for me, tu/tun for you. Indo-European kwi,kwe,kwo for what and who and so on is ki, ke, ku, ko in Uralic. Words that are typically not loan words.
Good point.

I believe HG's had enormous language diversity. Take for instance our best proxy for the Paleolithic world, Aboriginal Australia. There is enormous language variability, with a number of language families next to a number of language isolates. New Guinea is even more diverse, literally hundreds of languages and language families. American Indians have a number of language isolates. I think this may be extrapolated to HG Europe, indicating that Europe too had enormous language diversity.
Exactly my thoughts. The only difference might be that Eurasians were very compressed to just few refugia during LGM, till basically Neolithic. This could have limited amount of language diversity.

EDIT: There still are a number of issues with this theory, to wit where did the rather large amount of IE roots for agricultural words came from? There is ample archaeological evidence for wheat growing east of the Dniepr earlier than 2000 BC. How then did these roots end up in Indo-Iranian languages?
Agriculture was mediated to the Steppe through Cucuteni and Maykop farmers.
 
So, the working hypothesis is something like this: The PIE culture started out by the EHG groups north of the Black Sea. The proto cultures expanded over Maykop and possibly Cucuteni-Trypillian. There the proto PIE came into being. It expanded. Somehow an after-migration from the Western part brought the agricultural roots back to BMAC. There these roots traveled south.

Does this fit somehow?

EDIT: There is clear evidence for after-migration in Mathieson's research: http://polishgenes.blogspot.nl/2015/10/the-sun-and-moon-srubnaya-people-and.html

After the Poltavka period, population change occurred in Samara: the Late Bronze Age Srubnaya have ~17% Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry (Extended Data Fig. 2). Previous work documented that such ancestry appeared east of the Urals beginning at least by the time of the Sintashta culture, and suggested that it reflected an eastward migration from the Corded Ware peoples of central Europe5. However, the fact that the Srubnaya also harbored such ancestry indicates that the Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry could have come into the steppe from a more eastern source. Further evidence that migrations originating as far west as central Europe may not have had an important impact on the Late Bronze Age steppe comes from the fact that the Srubnaya possess exclusively (n=6) R1a Y chromosomes (Extended Data Table 1), and four of them (and one Poltavka male) belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93 which is common in central/south Asians12, very rare in present-day Europeans, and absent in all ancient central Europeans studied to date.
 
Exactly my thoughts. The only difference might be that Eurasians were very compressed to just few refugia during LGM, till basically Neolithic. This could have limited amount of language diversity.

Expansion started earlier, at the start of the Holocene. See for instance Ahrensberg culture. American Indians were in a similar position, at a similar timeframe. Look at their language diversity, even with isolates.

Agriculture was mediated to the Steppe through Cucuteni and Maykop farmers.

Yes, but not to the cultures we consider ancestral to Indo-Iranian cultures, while these do have the same agricultural roots. Hey, not my objection, but Mallory's ;)

http://jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf
 
Expansion started earlier, at the start of the Holocene. See for instance Ahrensberg culture. American Indians were in a similar position, at a similar timeframe. Look at their language diversity, even with isolates.
We are talking about Yamnaya at 5-6 kya. Today's North American language picture had few more thousand years to diversify. Not exactly same time frames.


Yes, but not to the cultures we consider ancestral to Indo-Iranian cultures, while these do have the same agricultural roots. Hey, not my objection, but Mallory's ;)
Couldn't it come with II from Yamnaya? They were already farmers before they started expending.
 
So, the working hypothesis is something like this: The PIE culture started out by the EHG groups north of the Black Sea. The proto cultures expanded over Maykop and possibly Cucuteni-Trypillian. There the proto PIE came into being. It expanded. Somehow an after-migration from the Western part brought the agricultural roots back to BMAC. There these roots traveled south.
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There is more archaeological/material evidence that farmers of Cucuteni and Maykop expanded over hunter-gatherers of the steppe.
 
We are talking about Yamnaya at 5-6 kya. Today's North American language picture had few more thousand years to diversify. Not exactly same time frames.

Well, the idea is that proto-Indo-Uralic was just one of the many languages that existed. It split into two languages. One became PIE on a Caucasian substrate, the other proto-Uralic on an Asian substrate. That would render a small possible are from where it may have originated from.

Couldn't it come with II from Yamnaya? They were already farmers before they started expending.

It seems a timing issue combined with the fact that Indo-Iranian peoples settled among farmers that already must have had words for wheat, barley, ploughs and what not.

The timing issues seem to be that the cultures from which Indo-Iranian languages seem to originate are east of the Dniepr, which, as I said, has little to no evidence for farming before 2000 BC. The expansion to the Indo-Iranian target areas happened before that. Why and how would these peoples remember words they didn't use? Both Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages have many words regarding agriculture that are derived straight from PIE roots. Why not copy the words that were in use before their arrival in the target areas? Or create new ones?

There is more archaeological/material evidence that farmers of Cucuteni and Maykop expanded over hunter-gatherers of the steppe.

Is there? Got a summery of what exactly there is?
 
There is also the possibility that later archaeological proof of wheat growth and plowing will be found from before 2000 BC. It's not like we dug up the entire steppe. As Mallory already states in the pdf I linked to: We hardly know anything from these cultures but their burials.
 
Grotte du Bichon I2a*
Jason Neuharth :
After 4 days of working with a 18Gb bam file Ted Kandell I have the Y snps calls and Mtdna for Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h
He is positive for L460/PF3647/S238 = I2a and nothing downstream. His Mtdna is the same U5b1h.
Good work. Many thanks.
 

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