Do you believe EEFarmer with 2 light skin genes had light skin?

johen

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Even if Bulgarian(EEF 72%), greek(79%), and Albanian(78%) are still dark, was it possible for the EEF to have light skin?


Or is it possible 2 light skin genes to be inactivated while EEF were living in sunburnt Middle East?
 
Are you saying that maybe it has to do with Epigenetics? As Sardinians are the closest proxy of the ancient EEF I would look at their skin color for answers, but I believe it has to do with other populations from southwest asia that many are dark skinned today and the fact that many native European populations had dark skin.
 
[h=3]I don’t know the epigenetics. IfEEF and WHG were dark, how come European became white? As far as I know, theywere interbreeding , hence, whole European got 2 light skin genes around 5,000BC.[/h]
 
My question is : The EEF entered with light skin gene SLC 25/45. But I think they were not light skinned, considering the fact that Bulgarian(EEF 72%), greek(79%), and Albanian(78%) are still dark. I mean even if they had two light skin genes, they looked like dark skinned people at that time.
If they were light skinned, I think modern greek would be pink-white skinned.
 
Even if Bulgarian(EEF 72%), greek(79%), and Albanian(78%) are still dark, was it possible for the EEF to have light skin?


Or is it possible 2 light skin genes to be inactivated while EEF were living in sunburnt Middle East?

Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians are not 70%+ EEF. Their "CHG"(Ancient Caucasus Mountains) and other West Asian ancestors raise their EEF score. In reality maybe something like 40-50% of their ancestry is from actual EEFs and another 30% from other Ancient West Asians.

Both EEF/WHG(Mixture of EEF and WHG, took up most of Europe in 4000-3000 BC) and "Steppe"(Russia, Ukraine in 4000-3000 BC) were swarthy. Some certainly were Pale, but I think it was a minority. Probably what happened is after "Steppe" and "EEF/WHG" mixed, Light skin became the norm. That's what ancient DNA suggests. Light skin mutations more than tripled in frequency between 3000 and 2800 BC after EEF/WHG and Steppe mixed.
 
My question is : The EEF entered with light skin gene SLC 25/45. But I think they were not light skinned, considering the fact that Bulgarian(EEF 72%), greek(79%), and Albanian(78%) are still dark. I mean even if they had two light skin genes, they looked like dark skinned people at that time.
If they were light skinned, I think modern greek would be pink-white skinned.

If they had the gene I guess they should have been Pale. But maybe there's more genes involved that make people pale skinned. Also, the vast majority of Greeks/Bulgarians/Albanians have both Light skin genes and AFAIK are pretty Pale. It'd be interesting to go back in time and see what EEF looked like. Skulls aren't enough for facial reconstructions because lots of how our faces look is determined by flesh not bone.
 
Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians are not 70%+ EEF. Their "CHG"(Ancient Caucasus Mountains) and other West Asian ancestors raise their EEF score. In reality maybe something like 40-50% of their ancestry is from actual EEFs and another 30% from other Ancient West Asians.

Both EEF/WHG(Mixture of EEF and WHG, took up most of Europe in 4000-3000 BC) and "Steppe"(Russia, Ukraine in 4000-3000 BC) were swarthy. Some certainly were Pale, but I think it was a minority. Probably what happened is after "Steppe" and "EEF/WHG" mixed, Light skin became the norm. That's what ancient DNA suggests. Light skin mutations more than tripled in frequency between 3000 and 2800 BC after EEF/WHG and Steppe mixed.

Thank you for information.

I think light skin gene is recessive.

First interbreeding between dark WHG and EEF with the recessive light skin genes; outcome: dark skinned.

Second crushing by warlord swarthy ANE; outcome: dark. Ar that time European gene was dramatically changed by this Yamna.

Was there any slight chance to be light skinned?

I think the ancient german would be first white skinned people living in scandinavia area, b/c they did not marry foreign people for a long time.
 
Thank you for information.

I think light skin gene is recessive.

First interbreeding between dark WHG and EEF with the recessive light skin genes; outcome: dark skinned.

Second crushing by warlord swarthy ANE; outcome: dark. Ar that time European gene was dramatically changed by this Yamna.

Was there any slight chance to be light skinned?

I think the ancient german would be first white skinned people living in scandinavia area, b/c they did not marry foreign people for a long time.
Do you understand natural selection and evolution in general?
 
I think it’s not natural selection, b/c EEFarmer in sunburnt middle East entered the Europe with 2 skin gene. right?
 
Even if Bulgarian(EEF 72%), greek(79%), and Albanian(78%) are still dark, was it possible for the EEF to have light skin?


Or is it possible 2 light skin genes to be inactivated while EEF were living in sunburnt Middle East?


There is a big problem in this logic. You can't use the modern standards for "light skin" as the ancient standards also.

In the past Humans were generally a shade darker. Means what we consider "light skin" in ancient farmers was actually South European/West Asian type of light skin.

Before that the European H&G (expect the SHG who got probably their light skin variants from their EHG like ancestors) were predominantly brown as in darker as Neolithic farmers.


What we got so far are the CHG/Herders from the Caucasus who had the light skin genes. The Neolithic farmers of Anatolia who also had them. EHG in East Europe who also are said by some to have had them too (we also have actually signs of CHG like admixture in EHG).

We have WHG who didn't had them. We have SHG who some of them seemed to had them also (SHG seems to be a some kind of transition from WHG to EHG somehow).
 
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I think it’s not natural selection, b/c EEFarmer in sunburnt middle East entered the Europe with 2 skin gene. right?
White people must have come from Mars. One day they just showed up on Earth. That's it!
 
You said natural selection and evolution. i thought the evolution means sexual selection by Diamond. But I did not mention it, b/c I don't believe it. However, that theory looks persuasive.
 
w/o antithesis, there is no synthesis. thesis for good.
 
Second crushing by warlord swarthy ANE

It was not ANE which expanded to Europe, but other groups - with just partial ANE ancestry.

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker populations were significantly lighter-skinned than EEF farmers.

Already Russian EHG and also Yamnaya (Bronze Age Steppe) were lighter-skinned than EEF.

Check this data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=1800275085

Russian EHG, Corded Ware and Bell Beakers were lighter than Yamnaya and than EEF.
 
In terms of the comparison between Anatolian farmers and "Steppe", I'm not sure where Fire-Haired got that figure for derived SLC24A5 for "Steppe", because Sandra Wilde's paper on Yamnaya doesn't show any results for it.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832/T1.expansion.html

Assuming the stats are correct, they both had 100% SLC24A5 derived. As for SLC45A2 derived, we're talking about 35% of 23 samples for Anatolian farmers, versus 42% of 32 samples for "steppe". EHG is only two or three samples.

So, as always, we need more data.

Still not answered is where did both of them get it? I have proposed that it was the Caucasus region as it could have spread in both directions from there, but Satsurbia and Kotias were ancestral for SLC42A5. I guess it's possible that the source was around there but later in time?
 
Still not answered is where did both of them get it? I have proposed that it was the Caucasus region as it could have spread in both directions from there, but Satsurbia and Kotias were ancestral for SLC42A5. I guess it's possible that the source was around there but later in time?

I was searching for some correlation of these light skin genes with haplogroups. Especially which hg were shared by both Anatolian ENF and Russian EHG, but absent from dark-pigmented WHG. My finding is, that ENF and EHG shared haplogroup J (Y-DNA), as well as haplogroups H and U (mtDNA), but mtDNA U was also present in WHG, while H and J were rather not present in WHG:

http://s9.postimg.org/t4w2yqnfz/ENF_versus_EHG.png

ENF_versus_EHG.png


According to Chandler 2005, mtDNA haplogrpup H was present in WHG in Mesolithic Portugal, but "Ancestral Journeys" website claims these reults are unreliable (anyway, Y-DNA haplogroup J was not present in WHG from Mesolithic Portugal):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml

So it seems, that Y-DNA haplogroup or/and mtDNA haplogroup H could be important agents in spreading light skin.

but Satsurbia and Kotias were ancestral for SLC42A5.

Exactly, and that's the problem with CHG from Satsurblia and Kotias Klde.

Both of Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers had Y-DNA haplogroup J, and one of them had mtDNA haplogroup H (H13c). However, both of them had only one derived variant for light skin (rs1426654) and neither had the other derived variant (rs16891982).

By contrast in Russian EHG and in Anatolian ENF, both of those light skin mutations were present.

So perhaps correlation with Y-DNA haplogroup J and with mtDNA haplogroup H exists only for rs1426654.
 
Chandler 2005 found samples of mtDNA haplogroup H in museum bones belonging to Mesolithic WHG from Portugal.

According to Ancestral Journeys this is unreliable because museum bones were likely contaminated by modern DNA.
 
It was not ANE which expanded to Europe, but other groups - with just partial ANE ancestry.

Corded Ware and Bell Beaker populations were significantly lighter-skinned than EEF farmers.

Already Russian EHG and also Yamnaya (Bronze Age Steppe) were lighter-skinned than EEF.

Check this data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=1800275085

Russian EHG, Corded Ware and Bell Beakers were lighter than Yamnaya and than EEF.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...k-pigmentation?p=427993&viewfull=1#post427993

Yamna and Anatolianb farmers were near identical in their pigmentation. Also the only CW sample so far tested for this was said to have been rather dark skinned in modern terms.
 
satsurbila and Kotias are Late Paleolithic-Mesolithic and too old I don't think slc45a2 had yet evolved by Neolithic it must have happened.
 

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