Invent names for haplogroup bearers (fun thread)

[Alan]

It's not surprising. Peoples' or tribes' names are often defined by outsiders to distinguish them from themselves. For example, I doubt that the Lombards (Langobardi or "long beards") gave themselves that name. If they had a tradition if letting their beards grow longer than average, then other tribes would have defined them as the 'long beards'. The same would have happened with the Albans or 'white people' when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Europe and the Middle East. Descriptive names only work if they are used to contrast against other tribes/peoples, and therefore very often the name is bestowed by outsiders. In the case of Aryan, the term was apparently applied only to the Indo-Iranian R1a tribes when they invaded Central, South and West Asia.

Indeed it is not even clear if Aryan is solely Indo European. For example the Hurrian are said to have been called Harri or Ari which is believe to be another version of the very same name "Arian/Aryan".

Now we still don't know what kind of language the Hurrians spoke there are mere speculations that it shows some affinities to Northeast Caucasic (Lezgian) language, other believe it is isolated (for me isolated simply means A. either linguists couldn't yet reconstruct the language properly because of lack of language samples or B. couldn't yet find any major relationship to modern languages).

I have already elaborated what kind of strong Indo European characteristics are found among Hurrians (Pre Mitanni dynasty). Among those Teshub the Thunder God who is equivalent to Zeus, Taranis, Tarhun and Thor but predates any of them.

 

[Tomenable]

In the case of Aryan, the term was apparently applied only to the Indo-Iranian R1a tribes

The word "Aryan" is ultimately derived from the PIE language. This term is essentially Indo-Iranian, but it has cognates in other Indo-European languages, ultimately derived from Proto-IE. For example Greek term "aristos" (from which English "aristocracy" or Polish "arystokracja" later originated), Latin term "ars" ("art"), etc., ultimately derive from exactly the same PIE root as Indo-Iranian "arya".

Quote:
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"Indo-Iranian ar-ya- descends from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *ar-yo-, a yo-adjective to a root *ar "to assemble skillfully", present in Greek harma "chariot", Greek aristos, (as in "aristocracy"), Latin ars "art", etc. Thus, according to this theory, an Aryan is "one who skillfully assembles". proto-Indo-Iranian arta, asha was a related concept of "properly joined", expressing a religious concept of cosmic order."
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The term "Iran" also has exactly the same Proto-Indo-European origin as the term "Aryan":

Quote:
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"Iran - from Persian Iran, from Middle Persian Ērān "(land) of the Iranians," genitive plural of ēr- "an Iranian," from Old Iranian *arya- (Old Persian ariya-, Avestan airya-) "Iranian", from Indo-Iranian *arya- or *ārya- (see Aryan), a self-designation, perhaps meaning "compatriot". In 1935 the government of Reza Shah Pahlavi requested governments with which it had diplomatic relations to call his country Iran, after the indigenous name, rather than the Greek-derived Persia."
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The original meaning of "Aryan" was "compatriot" and "companion" (who skilfully assembles), later it also meant "noble".

Persian Royal Inscriptions: http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/DNa.html

Quote: "(...) I am Darius the great king, king of kings, king of countries containing all kinds of men, king in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenid, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage. (...)"

It's not surprising. Peoples' or tribes' names are often defined by outsiders to distinguish them from themselves.

Often there were many names for the same people - their own indigenous name and names given to them by foreigners.

"Persians" is such a name, which was given to them by the Greeks. By contrast, "Iranians" is their own indigenous name.

But apparently the Greek-invented name became popular among Iranians too, if Darius really called himself a "Persian".

 

[Tomenable]

This religious group which calls itself Arian does so because they derive it from Aryan

Nope.

The name of the religious group was derived from a personal name of its founder - Mr. Arius:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

The similarity of the two terms is thus just a coincidence.

 

[Tomenable]

An attempt was made in the 19th century to link Aryan with the German "Ehre" ("honor"), but it looks like this may no longer be a current theory. I also wonder whether it could be related to the Greek-derived word Aristocracy.

That too could be derived from the same Proto-Indo-European root *ar-yo-, a yo-adjective to a root *ar "to assemble skillfully".

he name of R1b Centum branch name may only have differed slightly from the name 'Aryan', but I would rather be inclined to think it was something like Alba

Albanian (not Scottish Gaelic but the Balkan one) is actually a Satem language, so the term was also known to the Satem branch.

- The country Albania (Centum language

Albanian is usually classified as a Satem language, though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum_and_satem_languages

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28238-Is-Albanian-really-a-Satem-language

Indeed it is not even clear if Aryan is solely Indo European. For example the Hurrian are said to have been called Harri or Ari which is believe to be another version of the very same name "Arian/Aryan".

There were also Caucasus Albanians, who spoke some language related to Kartvelian or Caucasian families, not Indo-European:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

See Caucasian Albanian language (it is extinct now, but belonged to the Northeast Caucasian languages according to wikipedia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albanian_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Caucasian_languages

Not sure if these cases are coincidences, or maybe Hurrians and Caucasus Albanians had IE ruling classes, but did not adopt IE language? The name Arius also seems to be just a coincidence, especially considering that the guy was probably a Berber (at least wikipedia claims so):

"Arius (Berber: Aryus ; Ancient Greek: Ἄρειος, AD 250 or 256–336) was a Christian presbyter and ascetic of Libyan birth, possibly of Berber extraction, and priest in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of the Baucalis.[1]"

 

[Tomenable]

Care to provide those signs?
I know only orja:

So "orja" is an Ugro-Finnic word derived from "Aryan" but meaning (in Finnish language) "slaves" ???

This suggests that Ugro-Finns had slaves of Indo-Iranian origin, perhaps. Where did they get them from?

I somehow assumed "Irish" is Aria derived

Nope, the term "Irish" ultimately comes perhaps from PIE *pi-wer- "fertile," literally "fat," from root *peie- "to be fat, swell":

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Irish

Quote:
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c. 1200, "the Irish people," from Old English Iras "inhabitant of Ireland." This is from Old Norse irar, which comes ultimately from Old Irish Eriu (accusative Eirinn, Erinn) "Erin." The reconstructed ancestry of this derives it from Old Celtic *Iveriu (accusative *Iverionem, ablative *Iverione), perhaps (Watkins) from PIE *pi-wer- "fertile," literally "fat," from root *peie- "to be fat, swell" (see fat (adj.)).
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BTW - the ethnonym "Welsh" is not of native Welsh origin, but it was applied to them by the Anglo-Saxons:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Welsh

Quote:
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Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish) "foreign; British (not Anglo-Saxon), Welsh; not free, servile," from Wealh,Walh "Celt, Briton, Welshman, non-Germanic foreigner;" in Tolkien's definition, "common Gmc. name for a man of what we should call Celtic speech," but also applied in Germanic languages to speakers of Latin, hence Old High German Walh, Walah "Celt, Roman, Gaulish," and Old Norse Val-land "France," Valir "Gauls, non-Germanic inhabitants of France" (Danish vælsk "Italian, French, southern"); from Proto-Germanic *Walkhiskaz, from a Celtic tribal name represented by Latin Volcæ (Caesar) "ancient Celtic tribe in southern Gaul." As a noun, "the Britons," also "the Welsh language," both from Old English. The word survives in Wales, Cornwall, Walloon, walnut, and in surnames Walsh and Wallace. Borrowed in Old Church Slavonic as vlachu, and applied to the Rumanians, hence Wallachia. Among the English, Welsh was used disparagingly of inferior or substitute things (...)
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The native ethnic name of Welsh people for themselves in their language was actually: "Brythons".

 

[Alan]

Nope.

The name of the religious group was derived from a personal name of its founder - Mr. Arius:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

The similarity of the two terms is thus just a coincidence.

Point given but as already mentioned Arian is just a different version of Aryan. In many languages it is written as Arian.

 

[Alan]

Not sure if these cases are coincidences, or maybe Hurrians and Caucasus Albanians had IE ruling classes, but did not adopt IE language? The name Arius also seems to be just a coincidence, especially considering that the guy was probably a Berber (at least wikipedia claims so):

"Arius (Berber: Aryus ; Ancient Greek: Ἄρειος, AD 250 or 256–336) was a Christian presbyter and ascetic of Libyan birth, possibly of Berber extraction, and priest in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of the Baucalis.[1]"

There is no sign of any "Indo European Elite" pre Mitanni Dynasty. And as mentioned above the Indo European characteristics predate any known from other Indo European cultures. Teshub is definitely not "loaned " by other cultures. The fact that some relationship is seen betwen Northeast Caucasic and Hurrian, that Lezgian is the most prominent part of the Northeast Caucasic familly and has a high frequency of R1b l23 makes me wonder if there isn't any closer relationship between Indo European, Northeast Caucasic and Hurrian_Mannaean. Possibly they share close roots and diverged very late.

This is why I also have this believe since years that Hurrians might have been some R1b, J2/J1 and some R1a people.

 

[arvistro]

So "orja" is an Ugro-Finnic word derived from "Aryan" but meaning (in Finnish language) "slaves" ???

This suggests that Ugro-Finns had slaves of Indo-Iranian origin, perhaps. Where did they get them from?

FU folk has long history of all types of interactions with Indo Iranians. First with (most likely) Indo-ish folk, then East Iranians.

 

[laetoli]

The slight issue with identifying with "Aryan" might be all that Nazi ideology from WWII. My understanding of cultures worldwide is that "we" are the good guys - the friends or humans - and that lot (often our closest neighbours) are bad guys and are barely human if at all. Ayran, Alan and Iran are all saying that.

 

[halfalp]

This is very very strange, because i already do myself that link between R1b haplogroup and Arberesh ( Albanese, Arbins... ) by instinct. I think, if you look correctly the way that every R1b people in europe, is link with Dinaric features, witch is link with Armenian features, wich is link with caucasus and armenia, hotspots of R1b ans that caucasians people look somehow like balkans and albanians people. Whatever, very interesting but not very scientific. But just for the " Aryan " word why nobody take the greek ARIstocracy word in mind to ? Of some theory proto ancient greeks and proto ancient iranians people lived together no ? Why the words can not be related ? The two words, seems to have the same sens of Nobility.

 

[LeBrok]

This is very very strange, because i already do myself that link between R1b haplogroup and Arberesh ( Albanese, Arbins... ) by instinct. I think, if you look correctly the way that every R1b people in europe, is link with Dinaric features, witch is link with Armenian features, wich is link with caucasus and armenia, hotspots of R1b ans that caucasians people look somehow like balkans and albanians people. Whatever, very interesting but not very scientific. But just for the " Aryan " word why nobody take the greek ARIstocracy word in mind to ? Of some theory proto ancient greeks and proto ancient iranians people lived together no ? Why the words can not be related ? The two words, seems to have the same sens of Nobility.

I'm not sure if it has a strong or exclusive through R1b, but most likely to a population movement in Late Neolithic and Bronze Age from Caucasus Area. We can see that the autosomal genome of balkan population is changing, shifting towards Caucasus. It might be related to recently discovered CHG admixture, Caucasus Hunter Gatherer.

 

[halfalp]

I'm not sure if it has a strong or exclusive through R1b, but most likely to a population movement in Late Neolithic and Bronze Age from Caucasus Area. We can see that the autosomal genome of balkan population is changing, shifting towards Caucasus. It might be related to recently discovered CHG admixture, Caucasus Hunter Gatherer.

I dont know about the subtleties of autosomal genomes and admixtures, but in the case of CHG, i followed recent articles of the subject, and when you see haplogroups samples for exemple of Yamna, it seems that caucasus, gedrosia, CHG all those admixture difficultly reliable are mostly the fact of MTdna like J,T,X,W,I. I always fought R1b was something like ANE north and south of Caucasus, something very nomadic, like Armenids / Dinarids R1b herders are not the Samara / Khvalynsk R1b EHG redhead thing.

 

[Alpakut]

Care to provide those signs?
I know only orja:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja

But not exactly Indo-European

Erzya уре• ‎(ure, "male slave") is an indication of a probable Turkic origin of the word.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/уре#Erzya

see also Turkic ир• ‎(ir)

1. man
2. husband
3. hero, soldier, warrior
4. nation, people
5. tribesman

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ир#Khakas

Proto-Altaic: *ā́ri ( ~ *ḗra)
Nostratic: Nostratic

Eurasiatic: *ʔarV
Meaning: member of the clan
Borean: Borean

Indo-European: *ar- <PIH *a->

Proto-IE: *ar- <PIH *a->
Meaning: master
Hittite: arawa- 'frei', Lyk. arawã 'abgabenfrei' (Tischler 53-55 is doubtful)
Old Indian: árya-, aryá- m. `master, lord', ā́rya- `Arian'
Avestan: airyō 'arisch'
Other Iranian: OPers ariya- 'arisch'
Celtic: Gaul Ario-manus; Ir aire, gen. airech gl. `primas'
Russ. meaning: господин; "ариец"
References: WP I 80



Altaic: *ā́ri ( ~ *ḗra)

Uralic: *arV (*arwa)

Dravidian: *ēr_- (*-d_-)

References: ND 67 *ʔarV; 781 *her[E] 'male' (hardly separatable) (in 1881 *q[ä]rV 'ox' Drav. is compared with Kartv. *qar- 'bull, ox' and some East Cush.).



Meaning: man
Russian meaning: мужчина
Turkic: *ēr

Mongolian: *ere

Comments: KW 123, Владимирцов 324, Poppe 79, 106, Цинциус 1972a, 45-49, ОСНЯ 1, 247, АПиПЯЯ 54, 283. A well known Turk.-Mong. isogloss. Borrowing in Mong. from Turk. (seeTMN 2, 179, Щербак 1997, 115) is quite improbable because of the final vowel. Cf. *i̯òre.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...text_number=2764&root=config&encoding=utf-eng