The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

Angela

A lot of Iberians seem to be in love with the idea that their R1b comes from the earliest inhabitants of western Europe, so fooey on what they think of as this Indo-European gibberish. I can remember when the Anglo and German and Slavic contingent felt likewise but now most of them seem to be enamored of the idea that they're descended from the big, bad Indo-Europeans.

Continuity seemed a plausible option at the beginning but there was no DNA evidence so most people changed their minds - now there is some new DNA evidence people are re-appraising.

Given the farmer invasion happened and the steppe invasion happened it would need to be a very flukey set of circumstances that led to substantial continuity at the end of it all - although probably not continuity in place but continuity by cousin (i.e. a cycle of replacements that led to the cousins of the first layer eventually replacing the intermediary layers) - so not likely but since the Villabruna find no longer impossible.
 
Still, what massive immigration event could there have been? At the end of the LGM, how many people were there?

I think this is an interesting point. Even if Villabruna did get their one R1b and the varying ENA from admixture with ex mammoth hunters drifting south, going by the final percentages (so far) it's not a mass replacement just slight admixture.

My *current* guess based on the current data is the ex mammoth hunters from the mammoth steppe drifted south after the mammoth were gone and settled in various places including both Western Europe and around the Black Sea but it was the Black Sea cousins via IE who ended up being the ancestors after all the various replacements (although this might change if future samples from Iberia and Franco-Cantabria show a lot of the right kind of R1b).
 
OK Epoch, strike the "poetic" comment, I'd done gone rogue.

Still, what massive immigration event could there have been? At the end of the LGM, how many people were there?

Exactly. Especially hunter-gatherers, who were subject to ecology rather than controlling it. [1] They follow herds and expand into empty territory, which maybe is why WHG expanded. But massive migration that replaced these HGs? I doubt it. Magdalenians going north (Ahrensburg culture, Swiderian culture, Kunda culture) because reindeer went north could have created the empty or less populated space for other groups - WHG - to expand in.

[1] That is a thing I recently realized: Yamnaya migrations are possible because they brought their animals with them. LBK migration because they took wheat and livestock with them. But Magdalenians followed existing animal migration routes.
 
And whoever it was that filled that void that Magdalenians left--they were following conditions they knew best, perhaps.

This was a population adapted to an ecological niche--following herds of reindeer or conditions that supported an environment they were adapted to. The question is where these folks were drawn in from. Someday we'll know.
 
I think this is an interesting point. Even if Villabruna did get their one R1b and the varying ENA from admixture with ex mammoth hunters drifting south, going by the final percentages (so far) it's not a mass replacement just slight admixture.

My *current* guess based on the current data is the ex mammoth hunters from the mammoth steppe drifted south after the mammoth were gone and settled in various places including both Western Europe and around the Black Sea but it was the Black Sea cousins via IE who ended up being the ancestors after all the various replacements (although this might change if future samples from Iberia and Franco-Cantabria show a lot of the right kind of R1b).

I had this in mind when I was toying with the "Badegoulian" idea. But there's really no evidence so far as I know, that the phenomenon introduced any new blood into western Europe.
 
Why on gods green earth would the out-of Maghreb hypothesis for western R1b seem almost poetic?



One thing that this whole DNA uncovered was not a huge paradigm shift, but basically that the Archaeologists from before the second world war were not nationalistic hideous proto-fascist liers, a notion widely spread since the sixties, but that they were actually right. Read Greg Cochran on this subject:

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/the-inexorable-progress-of-science-archaeology/

Especially read what he attributes to Mario Alinei




See my point? The "racist views that stemmed out of colonialism" have been proven right.

Now I think that in the sixties common sense died and these idiotic ideologically poisoned academics basically invented a racist motive that wasn't there in the nineteenth century.

You think the racist views used to justify colonialism were correct, were they? You think that's what Cochran is saying in that article? I don't think that's an accurate reading at all. He's just describing the history of what occurred.

The actual history of what happened is that "Scientific Racism" was used to justify colonialism by Europeans and also to justify slavery. That's an incontrovertible fact. To that extent, if in nothing else, Alinei was correct. It's also a fact that the anthropological studies and archaeology of migrations into Europe were eagerly seized upon and used and misused to justify theories of racial and ethnic superiority.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
It's a totally factual account. Anyone can check the references. It got so bad that someone actually wrote the following drivel:

"“In the United States, scientific racism justified Black African slavery to assuage moral opposition to the Atlantic slave trade. Alexander Thomas and Samuell Sillen described black men as uniquely fitted for bondage, because of their "primitive psychological organization".[83] In 1851, in antebellum Louisiana, the physician Samuel A. Cartwright (1793–1863), considered slave escape attempts as "drapetomania", a treatable mental illness, that "with proper medical advice, strictly followed, this troublesome practice that many Negroes have of running away can be almost entirely prevented".”


Starting in the 20th century those theories, many of them half baked, and the "Indo-European" saga were used by the Germans to justify the subjugation of the rest of Europe (except, in their scheme, their "Nordic" brothers in Scandinavia), going so far as to justify their extermination of the Jews and the plans to do the same to the Slavs.

For my part I do indeed think it's poetic justice that it turns out that they have a nice healthy dose of EEF derived mostly from the Middle East, and that the approximately half of their ancestry that derives from the Yamnaya people is itself half "Near Eastern", just as it's poetic justice that Hitler turned out to have yDna "E". I hope they're all rolling in their graves.

It was in revulsion against this history of the use and misuse of these theories that archaeologists operated, not just in the 60's, but starting as early as right after the war. What Cochran is alluding to in those poorly worded sentences at the end of the piece is that this new generation of archaeologists was also influenced by ideology. It's endemic to human endeavors, and therefore it's the rare writer on any topic who even tries, much less succeeds, in removing personal biases from the examination of data. That doesn't mean this shouldn't be the goal in so far as is humanly possible.

This sort of bias driven analysis continues to this day. Just as I don't think it's correct to use poorly understood anthropological differences and pre-historical movements of people to justify not even just discrimination, but the actual enslavement and extermination of other human beings, I am now disgusted by the twisting and manipulation of modern data to hold onto those pernicious and abhorrent concepts. You think it's a fluke that migration flow is just fine for some people if it comes from northern Eurasia, but it's found to be absolutely implausible that the WHG might also have ancestry from the Near East, and that even in the absence of firm data and with the premier research lab in the country proposing it as an alternative? I guess they had to accept the flow from there in the Neolithic, but I guess it's too much to have it infect the WHG upon whom they base their "Europeaness" and whiteness. Poetic justice again that they were dark skinned. The overall stupidity of some of this given that Europe is a sink for gene flow and that even if the WHG were totally Gravettian derived, which the Wu paper discounts, they too probably originally came from the Near East boggles the mind.
 
Angela

You're making the opposite point; there's clearly a desire to prove one set of people in the past wrong and that imo is clouding judgement.
 
Angela

You're making the opposite point; there's clearly a desire to prove one set of people in the past wrong and that imo is clouding judgement.

I agree, Greying Wanderer, and for some people I'm sure that's all it is, that and a desire to proclaim the correctness of their original ideas, sometimes published ideas. There are also some people who just tend to jump on one bandwagon or another and then are dismissive of any new or contradictory evidence. That's not my way of processing material: all my training is to be skeptical not only of the conclusions of others, but of my own, and to look at the weaknesses in all arguments and withhold agreement until I think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of one position or another. Still, I realize people approach these things differently, and it's fine. There are others who have come late to this topic and are unaware of the history, and I understand that as well.

The fact remains, however, that for some, for far too many, indeed, it's racism pure and simple, and I have dozens of screen shots to prove it. I'm a great believer in collecting and saving incriminating evidence (blame it on my profession), evidence that reveals in some cases not only acknowledged bias and the desire to skew results, but in other cases actions for which there are legal consequences. So much for trying to scrub places like forumbiodiversity and even worse sites. Too late.
 
Back to actual data. For the sake of future users of this site, I think these posts should also appear in this thread.

Posted by Bicicleur:

I taught I* was the source of the gravettian, but since discovery of J in Kotias Klde and Satsurblia and since the recent Ice Age Europe study, I now believe IJ* to be the source of Gravettian. I believe these people entered Europe along the east coast of the Black Sea 39 ka.
36 ka people in Mezmayskaya made a very important invention : borers which allowed them to drill the eye in a needle in an efficient way.
These needles were imortant for clothing and tents on the cold European steppe. Gravettian people had far more needles than Aurignacian.
For drilling holes, google 'Sungir man beads'.
Sungir is a place 400 km further north than Kostenki, Aurignacians didn't go that far north.



I'm not sure the term Epigravettian is well defined. It seems to me there are different Epigravettians, like the Eastern Epigravettian (Crimea, Roumenia) and Italian Eprigravettian (Italy, Carpathian Basin)

The human presence in Georgia during UP seems to be intermittent, not continuously.
There seems to be a link between 42 ka Dzudzuana and 39 ka Mezmayskaya.
There is also a link with Europe after LGM, through Epigravettian.
There seems to have been human presence 27-23 ka, but there is a gap 23-19 ka (during LGM)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0111271
I suspect the 27-23 ka people were the Socotra J*, and the cold climate during LGM with lack of faunal resources drove them further south.

Apart from Kostenki 14 the oldest East-European Y-DNA we have is 7.5 ka Karelian.
They were J and R1a1*.
It looks like J was replaced in Eastern Europe by R1a and R1b.
 
Posted by Angela:

It hangs together, certainly, for the Gravettian.

I'm not so sure about the Epigravettian. You're seeing it as moving from the Crimea west and it was just chance that the "I" lines prevailed over the "J" lines?

Doesn't the chronology show that it's older to the west?

For the 64 million dollar question, how did R1b1 get into Epigravettian Italy? Where were they hiding? Mal'ta is increasingly looking like a dead end to me. He was the last of his group, as others have pointed out. They must have moved to a refugia. Perhaps it was further southwest, as has also been pointed out. So far it doesn't look as if they were part of the Gravettian "mammoth hunters", but that could change tomorrow, of course. Still, they just seem to have barely hung on for a very long time, yes?

This source for the Epigravettian would, however, explain the relationship to CHG and perhaps the similarity between the WHG and some ancestors of Middle Easterners, but what to make of how different these people are in terms of skeletal structure and other "physical" traits? Could it all come down to the effects of evolution because of natural selection, or was there some admixture with some other early branch of West Eurasians?
 
Bicicleur:

I don't have a good view on the epigravettian, what was their speical technology or survival technique, nor where was the origin and how it dispersed.
I only understand it spread very rapidly on a very wide area.
If you know a good read on the Epigravettian, let me know.

As for pre-Indo-European dispersal of R1a/R1b branch, the picture is still very misty and complicated.
And the Villabruna R1b1 doesn't make it any simpler.
Jean Manco says they were in Hoti and Belt caves 14 ka.
I also think so, they were in Azerbaijian, NW Iran and SW Turkmenistan, the southern Caspian Sea area.
But I don't see the same itinary from Mal'ta to Hoti and Belt Jean Manco sees.
IMO Q and R were born out of P1 between the Altaï Mts and Lake Bajkal, and I think Q1a1 survived LGM in that area but not R.
I think they fled southwest during LGM to the northern Hindu Kush, the Kupruk area.
Kupruk is northern Afghanistan, I don't think much research will be done over there in the near future, so it's all guesswork.
It seems the Kupruk area was inhabited 30 - 15 ka.
https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cult...fgh05-009.html
I place there R1a, R1b, R2 and Q1b.
From there R2 moved south and eventually got in the Indus Valley.
R1a and R1b moved west to the southern Caspian Sea area and from there dispersed further.
The main dispersal was northward along the western coast of the Caspian Sea.

the level of the Caspian Sea has fluctuated considerably during and after LGM
the red line shows when it discharged water from the melting ice caps into the Black Sea via the Manych depression ; the spillover point is at +/- 22 meters above todays sea level ;
the Caspian Sea came till the Ural Mts then.
I believe R1a and R1b dispersed along the rivers and lakes of eastern Europe.
David Anthony tells in his famous book in one of his first chapters about the Dnjepr Rapids, 10 ka when 3 tribes with different skhull types and different burial customs were fighting over controll of the area, and finally 1 single tribe was left, one of the 2 dolycephalic tribes.
IMO the 2 dolycephalic tribes were were R1a/R1a, the other tribe, who was there first was I/J.

It doesn't explain the early arrival of R1b1 Villabruna 14 ka.
I guess it was a dead end branch wandering in.
 
When the paper came out I tried to do a quick refresher course for myself, but the scholarship, such as it is, seems rather a muddle to me. According to some researchers, it spans the whole area from Italy (even neighboring Provence according to some authors) to Ukraine, and south into Anatolia and the Levant. Some authors even see it in North Africa.

Then, one book I found says that the categorization of a site as "Epigravettian" shouldn't necessarily be considered definitive as some researchers have just lumped things together by chronology rather than by cultural (including lithic) differences, and so some supposedly Epigravettian sites are just late Magdalenian and some are late Gravettian, and on and on.

Anyway, here are some citations for your week-end. :)

https://books.google.com/books?id=nX...blages&f=false

"Backed tools" at a 16,000 BP "Epigravettian" site in northern Hungary:
https://www.academia.edu/9099654/Bac...ite_in_Hungary

I sometimes read this blog now that Matilda has abandoned hers. This is the post on the Epigravettian of Liguria.
http://www.aggsbach.de/2016/01/balzi...epigravettian/

He highlights some of the problems with categorization. For example, "Is the chronological status of shouldered points in Central East Europe really well defined and restricted to post-Pavlovian times? Are Shouldered Points sometimes the by-product of the production of backed implements?"

This one is very interesting:
http://maajournal.com/Issues/2004/Vol-1/Full1.pdf

It mainly discusses the Balkans and Anatolia in the Gravettian to Epigravettian period. The authros seem to conclude that there was a "cultural entitiy" whatever that means, between the Balkans and Anatolia in the Gravettian, if I'm reading it correctly, with some technological markers being earlier in Anatolia than in the Balkans. This is despite the fact that they hunted different game: chamois and horse in the Balkans, and wild goat, sheep and deer in Anatolia. Clearly no mammoth in either place. They maintain that the Kabaran of the Levant was different.

In the Late Glacial, which they define as 16,000 to 14,000 before present some of the influences went from the Balkans to Anatolia. Interestingly, it is in the Balkans that larger camps appear, camps inhabited for longer periods of time. They also do a lot of wood working.

In what they refer to as the Bolling complex, 14,000 to 12,000 BP they see the development of the microburrin technique. They find them at Klissoura and Fanchthi Cave. In Anatolia there were geometric microliths. "The two phenomena are related to the perfecting of hunting weapons, notably of spear points made up of several inserts, and -probably- with the introduction of arrowpoints equipped with geometrical microliths. The game changes to include increasing quantities of deer, and birds and faunal material start to appear.

Meanwhile, in the Levant, perhaps because they were further south and the climate was different, the camps become larger and storage facilities appear. Trapezoidal and rectangular forms began to appear. In the next 2,000 years the Natufian appears, and spreads north into Syria.

Now, I don't know if there have been subsequent papers which find fault with these conclusions, but if not, I think these findings are very important for our discussions.
 
Bicicleur:

As for pre-Indo-European dispersal of R1a/R1b branch, the picture is still very misty and complicated.
And the Villabruna R1b1 doesn't make it any simpler.
Jean Manco says they were in Hoti and Belt caves 14 ka.
I also think so, they were in Azerbaijian, NW Iran and SW Turkmenistan, the southern Caspian Sea area.
But I don't see the same itinary from Mal'ta to Hoti and Belt Jean Manco sees.
IMO Q and R were born out of P1 between the Altaï Mts and Lake Bajkal, and I think Q1a1 survived LGM in that area but not R.
I think they fled southwest during LGM to the northern Hindu Kush, the Kupruk area.
Kupruk is northern Afghanistan, I don't think much research will be done over there in the near future, so it's all guesswork.
It seems the Kupruk area was inhabited 30 - 15 ka.
https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cult...fgh05-009.html
I place there R1a, R1b, R2 and Q1b.
From there R2 moved south and eventually got in the Indus Valley.
R1a and R1b moved west to the southern Caspian Sea area and from there dispersed further.
The main dispersal was northward along the western coast of the Caspian Sea.

the level of the Caspian Sea has fluctuated considerably during and after LGM
the red line shows when it discharged water from the melting ice caps into the Black Sea via the Manych depression ; the spillover point is at +/- 22 meters above todays sea level ;
the Caspian Sea came till the Ural Mts then.
I believe R1a and R1b dispersed along the rivers and lakes of eastern Europe.
David Anthony tells in his famous book in one of his first chapters about the Dnjepr Rapids, 10 ka when 3 tribes with different skhull types and different burial customs were fighting over controll of the area, and finally 1 single tribe was left, one of the 2 dolycephalic tribes.
IMO the 2 dolycephalic tribes were were R1a/R1a, the other tribe, who was there first was I/J.


Angela: I too think that the north was abandoned and they fled south. This also makes sense of the R2 in India. Your idea about the dispersal into the steppes makes sense too. It's sort of like Jean Manco's old proposal about R1b and R1a and their winter and summer camps.

I like it.
 
Posted by Bicicleur:

thx Angela.

I like to read Aggsbach too.
He seems to know what he is talking about and he leaves speculation to you.
You won't read big stories but sometimes I search Aggsbach to try and check some details.

The Epigravettian picture is very confuse.
I imagine a lot of very mobile tribes moving in between each other and of whom finally only a few survived.

The Magdalenians were very mobile too.
It is only when forestation started that more sedentary Villabrunans arrived.
I wonder if that R1b1 visitor brought some knowhow about survival in the forests.
These forest tribes used geometrical microliths and bow and arrow, something that allready existed in 18 ka Kebaran.
The archeologists however claim there was no link between Kebaran and Epigravettian.
I percieve Kebaran as G2, maybe some H2 too, but I don't expect any R1b or I there.
Gravettian was IJ, Magdalenian was I and Villabrunans were I2. And TMRCA for I2 and its major subclades is 21 ka. So those I2 stayed 7000 years in some small corner before expanding. And they were probably some Gravettian tribe.

I don't think the archeologists will be able to shine a bright light on Epigravettian. I expect more from DNA.
 
Posted by Bicicleur:

I checked Genetiker again for the Ice Age Europe,
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...ce-age-europe/
Villabruna is indeed I2,
but now it appears Vestonice 16 would be C-V86, which is unlike La Brana (see YFull id LB1https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/)
then again, when I watch the Y-SNP calls in detail, C-V86 seems doubtfull, as Vetonice 16 is negative 8 out of 12 C-V20 SNPs and positive for only 3 C-V86 SNPs
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-vestonice-16/
C1a2 has been found in Aurignacian Gouyet and in only 2 paleo/mesolithic sites : La Brana and Vestonice, and then again in neolithic sites
C1a2 was not present in the Magdalenian samples.
Also today C1a2 is not well represented.
It looks like C1a2 was present in the Gravettian, but only as a minority.:
 
Maps of the extent of pre-Neolithic lithic groups in Europe, North Africa, and parts of the Near East.

Extent of Pre-Neolithic Cultures in Europe, the Near East and North Africa.jpg

They are taken from this site:

https://shebtiw.wordpress.com/great-men/genes/real-people/
 
Posted by Bicicleur:

I checked Genetiker again for the Ice Age Europe,
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...ce-age-europe/
Villabruna is indeed I2,
but now it appears Vestonice 16 would be C-V86, which is unlike La Brana (see YFull id LB1https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/)
then again, when I watch the Y-SNP calls in detail, C-V86 seems doubtfull, as Vetonice 16 is negative 8 out of 12 C-V20 SNPs and positive for only 3 C-V86 SNPs
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-vestonice-16/
C1a2 has been found in Aurignacian Gouyet and in only 2 paleo/mesolithic sites : La Brana and Vestonice, and then again in neolithic sites
C1a2 was not present in the Magdalenian samples.
Also today C1a2 is not well represented.
It looks like C1a2 was present in the Gravettian, but only as a minority.:

I can't keep up with the changes. In doing my little refresher course on the Epigravettian, his most recent? blog post on pigmentatiion snps came up. Now he maintains that those depigmentation derived snps claimed for groups like SHG are incorrect because in most cases it was one out of five calls and from the end of the sequence where there is always the most damage.

If that's true, I think it would be important, but who knows if he's correct or not?

You mentioned something upthread about archaeologists seeing no link between Kebaran and Epigravettian. So, two cultures in relatively close proximity develop geometric points roughly at the same time, although with the more southern culture developing them first, and in response to the need to develop weapons for smaller game, a need that also moved north as the climate changed, and the developments were totally independent? Color me a bit skeptical on this one.
 
You think the racist views used to justify colonialism were correct, were they? You think that's what Cochran is saying in that article? I don't think that's an accurate reading at all. He's just describing the history of what occurred.

Exactly what Grey said.
 
I like how in map (d) the Epi-Gravettian extends as far as Catalunia. Interesting.

Angela thank you for keeping the discussion on track.

I think that has to do with the linkage between Liguria and Provence during these time periods which Margherita Mussi discusses at some length even going by the chopped up version on google books.

Perhaps the argument could be made that in the Early Epigravettian neither Liguria nor Provence (and down the coast) are actually Epigravettian, and that it arrived only with later lithic assemblages, and at that point didn't extend into present day France, but I may be totally wrong about that. The whole "Arenian" complex and how that fits into the scheme of things is a bit of a mystery to me.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a bit of a mystery to the experts as well. :)
 

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