linguistic aspect extracted of "First Celts"

Yetos said:
that is my point,
that words Celt/Gaul Slav Selloi comes from as you wrote it *ghel, -Kel
and yes the bird is χελιδων khelidon, but birds from ancient times they ωδουν (sing) or κελαιδουν (speak-communicate) or κρωζουν (ungly sound like ravens)
and group gives Greek word Γλωσσα Γλωττα.
*ghel in Greek loses the vowel after K and becomes Γ to make Γλωσσα
or Γλωσσα gets a vowel among Γ and L and drops to K

when I said about Callicum and Galliciano
I must say this
Romans build Callicum
Greeks translated as Καλλικον (officially at Catholic church pappers) the city but spell it as Γαλλικο, the river, Gallikos,
and when moved to Italy named it Galliciano, Γαλλικιανον.
so the official at letter is Kallikon as should be,
but the living sound is Gallikos,

it is like playing with Galledonia or Kalledonia or Calledonia?

all I believe is that early form *ghel -kel
gave these words, kelis/kelitas, Glossa, yell, Γαλατσευω, call, Celt, Gaul, Slav, Selloi etc etc
Even the word Kallas Kallasha
and i think it is possible.
now you have Ocam's razor.
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Have you some reason to explain why K- words gave K- in some words and G- (whatever the evolution of pronounciation in Greek) in other words or is it dialect based (here i need proofs)?
Concerning Kallikon, have you the proof it was pronounced Gallikon or as you write Gallikos BY GREEKS in ANCIENT TIMES; I rather think its was spelled with C- in Latin but pronounced G- by latin speakers already at this times (it's a phenomenon present in today W-Romance words where C- >> G-); then written K/C in both and pronounced /g/>/y/ in greek?
It's my last post concerning this ONLY case (Galliciano) , because I don't know, apart my habits of principal diverse phonetic evolutions.
That said you 'll have hard work to convince me that all the cases and words you cite are all of them of the same root; vague common meaning is not sufficient. For 'slovo' OK but it's not a scoop (no link with 'glosso' at first sight, but with 'cleos',cf breton 'klewed' "to hear", english 'loud', cf dutch 'luid' germ- 'laut' germanic *hlû-d-).
That said you can give me some clues about times/places EVIDENT evolutions of Greek, I 'll be glad because I 'm not knowledged in this language, doing only some comparisons concerning some reliable roots.
 
MOESAN said:
Have you some reason to explain why K- words gave K- in some words and G- (whatever the evolution of pronounciation in Greek) in other words or is it dialect based (here i need proofs)?
Concerning Kallikon, have you the proof it was pronounced Gallikon or as you write Gallikos BY GREEKS in ANCIENT TIMES; I rather think its was spelled with C- in Latin but pronounced G- by latin speakers already at this times (it's a phenomenon present in today W-Romance words where C- >> G-); then written K/C in both and pronounced /g/>/y/ in greek?
It's my last post concerning this ONLY case (Galliciano) , because I don't know, apart my habits of principal diverse phonetic evolutions.
That said you 'll have hard work to convince me that all the cases and words you cite are all of them of the same root; vague common meaning is not sufficient. For 'slovo' OK but it's not a scoop (no link with 'glosso' at first sight, but with 'cleos',cf breton 'klewed' "to hear", english 'loud', cf dutch 'luid' germ- 'laut' germanic *hlû-d-).
That said you can give me some clues about times/places EVIDENT evolutions of Greek, I 'll be glad because I 'm not knowledged in this language, doing only some comparisons concerning some reliable roots.
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well that is my second attempt,
lately my posts are not posted fast, so I do not know if I post them, and now i do not have the luxury to wait to see
so it would be briefly,

callicum is the goat leather/fleece instrument that Romans used to gather Gold from Rivers,

river Εχεδωρος central Makedonia,
Romans build villachio of Callicum to centralize and gain authority of the area outside Thessaloniki,

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Κιλκίς

gallicianno
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallicianò

publications of citta del Vaticani
''χωράφιον το Γαλλικίανον εις το κάστρον του Γάρδου''

Phillipo Violi book, Storia de la Calabria Greca

in fact Gallicianno as it is isolated, it is a good place to find Genetical data of 10th century AD, of outside Thessaloniki people,before the entrance of Slavs.

so Galledonia Kalledonia or Caledonia?

 
@Yetos: I think we 'll never agree concerning phonetic evolutionS in distinct languages at distinct times. That said I thank you for the facts you mentioned concerning Greek questions. You can send in a thread or by messages what you know about Greek dialects, interesting stuff I'm unaware of.
 
@Moesan

I don't read Yetos posts but concerning k/g I've noticed that the Latin K, C and G were transcribed in Lepontic as K.

For example:
Latin ARGANTOCOMATERECUS,
Lepontic: ARKATOKOKMATEREKOS

Also in the following example: pelkui : pruiam : teu : karite : iṣ́ọs : kalite : palaṃ pelkui is a dative and it is thought to have meant 'to Belgos'


I don't know if someone can say for sure what exactly was the phonetic value of K in this particular language, but I personally believe that the terms Galatai and Keltai were etymologically related.

Taranis said that it was an adaptation from Latin 'Galli' but if it was an adaptation from Latin it would have been Γάλλος (singular), Γάλλοι (plural). (Gallos, Galloi). But it was instead Γαλάτης, Γαλάται Gallates, Gallatai. That normally would have been an adaptation from a hypothetical Latin Gallata, Gallatae.

(Wikipedia says about Gallus: Likely derived from Proto-Celtic*galn- ‎(“to be able”),
while about *Keltos 'Possible roots include Indo-European *k´el-‘to hide’ (also in Old Irish celid), IE *k´el- ‘to heat’ or *kel- ‘to impel’.')

It's very clear that anything is far from certain, which is most often true about ethnonyms. Quite often is not even certain if an ethnonym is an endonym or not.



 
A. Papadimitriou said:
@Moesan

I don't read Yetos posts but concerning k/g I've noticed that the Latin K, C and G were transcribed in Lepontic as K.

For example:
Latin ARGANTOCOMATERECUS,
Lepontic: ARKATOKOKMATEREKOS

Also in the following example: pelkui : pruiam : teu : karite : iṣ́ọs : kalite : palaṃpelkui is a dative and it is thought to have meant 'to Belgos'
Click to expand...

If I may, you're mixing up orthography and phonology. The Lepontic (and other Celtic-speaking peoples in the Alps, note that the example you quote above is Cisalpine Gaulish and not Lepontic) used variants of the Etruscan alphabet, which had no separate letter for /g/. Originally, the letter 'c' represented both /k/ and /g/ in Latin, and the letter 'g' was invented only later (its more educative with modern upper case letters, C and G, notice how G is basically a "C" with additional strokes). In a similar fashion, "p" here represented both /b/ and /p/ (note that I agree with your interpretation that "pelkui" means the name Belgos, in the dative).
I don't know if someone can say for sure what exactly was the phonetic value of K in this particular language, but I personally believe that the terms Galatai and Keltai were etymologically related.
Click to expand...

There's no evidence for this. From epigraphy in Latin and Greek (both which exist for Gaulish, on top of the Etruscan alphabet), we do know Gaulish for sure distinguished /g/ and /k/, as did all the other Celtic languages (including the living branches, i.e. Goidelic and Brythonic). I would also like to note that we do have epigraph attestation of the term "Celt-" from Gaul.
Taranis said that it was an adaptation from Latin 'Galli' but if it was an adaptation from Latin it would have been Γάλλος (singular), Γάλλοι (plural). (Gallos, Galloi). But it was instead Γαλάτης, Γαλάται Gallates, Gallatai. That normally would have been an adaptation from a hypothetical Latin Gallata, Gallatae.
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What I meant was that the Greek term "Galatai" is used in those places by classical authors where Latin authors would use the term "Galli". I've given you numerous examples of authors (Diodorus of Sicily, Strabo, Pausanias) who deploy the term in exactly this way. If you are distrustful of what I am writing here, I would like to encourage you to read the original sources I mentioned, and I can assure you that you will come to the same conclusion.

I would say I agree with your assumption that its more probable that one would expect Galloi (singular Gallos). This is why I suggested that the name was influenced by the word for 'milky' (again, folk etymology). I would also like to remind you that there's a Greek mythological figure with a similar name, Galateia (Γαλατεια), with exactly the same etymology - which may have contributed into that folk etymology. Its not satisfying at all, I admit that, but this fits best with the available evidence. Note that Galateia was a figure of Greek mythology centuries before the Gaulish invasion of Greece (which happened a few decades after the death of Alexander the Great), and even before the word "Keltoi" was mentioned by Greek authors.

What is the etymology of 'Galateia'?
(Wikipedia says about Gallus: Likely derived from Proto-Celtic*galn- ‎(“to be able”),
while about *Keltos 'Possible roots include Indo-European *k´el-‘to hide’ (also in Old Irish celid), IE *k´el- ‘to heat’ or *kel- ‘to impel’.')

It's very clear that anything is far from certain, which is most often true about ethnonyms. Quite often is not even certain if an ethnonym is an endonym or not.
Click to expand...

I find the evidence that Celt was the endonym of the Gauls compelling (based on the conjunction of epigraphic evidence and the word of classical authors), which means in conclusion that Galli is the Latin exonym. Where does this leave the Greek term Galatai?
 
the name Κελτος is much before Galates of Brenos,
Herodotus mantion the term keltos more than 2 centuries before the Gauls raid Greece,

as for Galatai we know they speak a dialect that was spoken at today Belgium

about Galateia, the myth gives her as mother of illyros keltos and galatis
show Galateia, although most ancient believed that was 'milky colour skin'
we show that is mother of all known Celtic names,

there is also the myth of Hercules, according wich Keltos was grandson of Bretannos, from his daughter Κελτινη

so the termination Keltos is much earlier than the term Galatαι
Ξενοφων Ζ/1

''Λακεδαιμονίοις ἡ παρὰ Διονυσίου βοήθεια, τριήρεις πλέον ἢ εἴκοσιν: ἦγον δὲΚελτούς τε καὶ Ἴβηρας καὶ ἱππέας ὡς πεντήκοντα. τῇ δ' ὑστεραίᾳ οἱ Θηβαῖοί''

Αρριανος
''πλείστην γῆν ἐπερχόμενον καὶ ἔθνη μαχιμώτατα ἀπείργοντα, τὰ μὲν πολλὰ Κελτικά, ὅθεν γε καὶ αἱ πηγαὶ αὐτῷ ἀνίσχουσιν, ὧν τελευταίους Κουάδους καὶ Μαρκομάνους''

Αριστοτελης
ἀνάλγητος, εἰ μηδὲν φοβοῖτο, μήτε σεισμὸν μήτε κύματα, καθάπερ φασὶ τοὺςΚελτούς· ὁ δὲ τῷ θαῤῥεῖν ὑπερβάλλων περὶ τὰ φοβερὰ θρασύς. δοκεῖ δὲ καὶ ἀλαζὼν

THE ALPHABET OF THE CELTS

Strabo 4.1.5
De Bello Gallico 1.29

and i repeat the queston
which is correct? Galedonia Kalledonia Calledonia?

κελιτας ιππος = naid horse = equum hinnitum
 
Yetos said:
and i repeat the queston
which is correct? Galedonia Kalledonia Calledonia?
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The name (for the ethnic group in what is now Scotland) is always spelled with 'c' in Latin, and with Kappa in Greek. The meaning is thought to be something like "very hard (i.e. tough) ones: Modern Welsh has "caled", Old Irish has "calad".
 
Taranis said:
The name (for the ethnic group in what is now Scotland) is always spelled with 'c' in Latin, and with Kappa in Greek. The meaning is thought to be something like "very hard (i.e. tough) ones: Modern Welsh has "caled", Old Irish has "calad".
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thank you Taranis, cause in Balkans we found the term Chelidoni, and most scholars believe it come from Greek ΕΛΙΧ helix, but is it?

besides from Strabo and other Romans we know that Celts used Greek Alphabet before 4rth century BC,
It would be interesting how they wrote their language with Greek Alphabet, to find exactly C G K,
cause at 4rth BC we do not speak about evolution from PIE but for sound imports

PS
walLes Ουαλλοι ?
Walloon βελγοι? from Germanic w->b?
 
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Yetos said:
besides from Strabo and other Romans we know that Celts used Greek Alphabet before 4rth century BC,
It would be interesting how they wrote their language with Greek Alphabet, to find exactly C G K,
cause at 4rth BC we do not speak about evolution from PIE but for sound imports
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The Gauls in southern Gaul, adjacent to the Greek colonies such as Massilia (modern Marseilles) used the Greek alphabet to write their own language. If you scroll down in the document that Sile shared here earlier, you can see some examples of Gaulish written using Greek:
Sile said:
http://eprints.maynoothuniversity.ie/3740/1/DS_Gaulish.pdf
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Also, please note that the c-shaped letter is actually a Sigma (Σσς), just like the Cyrilic 's' (Сс). It has no relationship with Latin 'c'.

PS
walLes Ουαλλοι ?
Walloon βελγοι? from Germanic w->b?
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I explained the name "Walloon" here earlier:

Taranis said:
The word "Wallach", "Walloon", and "Wales" come from Germanic *walhaz ('Celt', and later 'Roman'), and is thought to be derived from the Gaulish ethnonym "Volcae" (Ουολκαι), but subject to the Proto-Germanic sound shifts (*o > *a, *k > *h).
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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Taranis
The word "Wallach", "Walloon", and "Wales" come from Germanic *walhaz ('Celt', and later 'Roman'), and is thought to be derived from the Gaulish ethnonym "Volcae" (Ουολκαι), but subject to the Proto-Germanic sound shifts (*o > *a, *k > *h).
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Do you think balkanian ethnic name Vlach, as description of Latin/Italian speaking communities, could be of germanic origin. From times when Goths and other East Germanic tribes were in the area?
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Taranis
The word "Wallach", "Walloon", and "Wales" come from Germanic *walhaz ('Celt', and later 'Roman'), and is thought to be derived from the Gaulish ethnonym "Volcae" (Ουολκαι), but subject to the Proto-Germanic sound shifts (*o > *a, *k > *h).
 
Taranis said:
The Gauls in southern Gaul, adjacent to the Greek colonies such as Massilia (modern Marseilles) used the Greek alphabet to write their own language.
Click to expand...

Not only there,
at 'de bello Gallico' we see Celts to write down census and other on Greek alphabet also in Alpine areas,
and Druid learn greek language
De bello gallico liber VI

  1. Hel ue ti orum tabulae repertae sunt litteris Graecis confectae [...] quibus in tabulis nominatim ratio confecta erat, qui numerus domo exisset, qui arma ferre pos sent, et item separatim pueri, senes mulieresque

Massaleia province is just the area were we have written proves,
but considering the above book even at alps Ηelvetii used/knew Greek

besides
ΕCKIΓΓΟΡΕΙΧ ? the 2 ΓΓ?
ΚΟΡNHLIA ?
 
Yetos said:
Not only there,
at 'de bello Gallico' we see Celts to write down census and other on Greek alphabet also in Alpine areas,
and Druid learn greek language
De bello gallico liber VI

  1. Hel ue ti orum tabulae repertae sunt litteris Graecis confectae [...] quibus in tabulis nominatim ratio confecta erat, qui numerus domo exisset, qui arma ferre pos sent, et item separatim pueri, senes mulieresque

Massaleia province is just the area were we have written proves,
but considering the above book even at alps Ηelvetii used/knew Greek

besides
ΕCKIΓΓΟΡΕΙΧ ? the 2 ΓΓ?
ΚΟΡNHLIA ?
Click to expand...

The Greek digraph 'gg' means /ŋg/ (as in the English word 'anger'). Notice that Strabo actually spells the name "Vercingetorix" as "Ouerkiggetorix" (Ουερκιγγετοριξ) in his geography.

LeBrok said:
Do you think balkanian ethnic name Vlach, as description of Latin/Italian speaking communities, could be of germanic origin. From times when Goths and other East Germanic tribes were in the area?
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"Vlach" and "Wallach(ia)" is the same thing. :) The Wallachs speak a Romance language (Romanian).
 
Taranis said:
The Greek digraph 'gg' means /ŋg/ (as in the English word 'anger'). Notice that Strabo actually spells the name "Vercingetorix" as "Ouerkiggetorix" (Ουερκιγγετοριξ) in his geography.



"Vlach" and "Wallach(ia)" is the same thing. :) The Wallachs speak a Romance language (Romanian).
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Slavs use Vloch to describe Italians these days and Romans in the past. Do you know if East Germanics used it too?
 
Yetos said:
ok w->b,v to germanic
how it goes atb old gaulish?
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One issue that I may add: the ethnic name "Belgae" is unrelated with "Volcae". Note that the former are "Βελγαι", the latter "Ουολκαι" in Greek.
 
I still do not get it

w goes to v-b at germanic

but how would w or *gwel- at Gaulish? ου?

at the evolution forms, not as import sound
 
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