Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33

Thread: Japanese Emperors are D1b1a2

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Japanese Emperors are D1b1a2

    Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D-M174

    Refrence to here, where are many other interesting persons.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Moi-même's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-16
    Location
    Quebec City
    Posts
    63
    Points
    1,449
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,449, Level: 10
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 101
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    French Canadian
    Country: Canada-Quebec



    More precisely on this page, the one you provide doesn't have the Japanese imperial family listed. There is even a bit of English text:

    The Japanese monarchy (Imperial House of Japan) is the oldest continuous hereditary monarchy in the world still in existence. It has "reigned since time immemorial." Imperial family's genealogical tree sparked the interests not only by Shinto priests, but by anthropologists/geneticists. In this article, we aim at demystifying the lineages of Japanese imperial family for encouraging the further researches in this field. "Genetic Evidence"Most scientists agree on the use of SNP on non-recombining portion of Y-chromosome, known as Y haplogroup. Majority of Japanese males had genetic markers specific to Japanese islands as well as Okinawan. "Birth rates of ruling family"Ruling family and group often dominates in social ranks, and more controversially, in reproductions. Using Y-chromosome data, Genghis Khan's offsprings may have been 16 million people, suggesting that the group of larger disributions could be much likely to be the rulers genetic make-ups. Japan is the oldest continuous hereditary monarchy in the world, and unlike briefly ending rulership of Genghis Khan's heirs, Japanese imperial family and their associates dominated Japan for more one thousand years. Thus, rough estimations of how likely imperial family belonging to each Y-haplogroups may hold equality relation with the frequencies - distributions of Y haplogroup. To this extent, it is natural to expect that there would be more than 60% probability of Japanese emperor descending from the Jomon - Ainu people of Japan.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This link was on wiki.

    Maybe simply some of this guys is a descendant of imperial family.

    I can;t read this hierogliphs.

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    253
    Points
    2,911
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,911, Level: 15
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 139
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Canada



    Very interesting, King in Edo era had D, not O,
    regardless of East Asian cranial analysis by Hawaii Unv. Pietrusewsky, M(2010):
    Inspection of the closest distances further reveals that Edo,Tohoku, Marunouchi, Kanto, and Kyushu are among the seriesclosest to Manchuria, Anyang, and Korea. Korea is frequently closest to several of the Japanese series (e.g., Kanto, Edo, Kofun, Yayoi,Tohoku, and Kyushu).

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Moi-même's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-16
    Location
    Quebec City
    Posts
    63
    Points
    1,449
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,449, Level: 10
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 101
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    French Canadian
    Country: Canada-Quebec



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The wikipedia link refer to the R1b page of the site, right site, but wrong page. The one I linked is for the haplogroup D1. The imperial family's subclade would be D1b1a2.

    In the list, there are historic Emperors, among which, 東山天皇, Higashiyama (1675-1710). Following his father line on wiki, if there was no NPE and if the early records are reliable, his y-line was filled with Emperor all the way back to Jinmu (660 BC - 585 BC). The current Emperor is still from this dynasty.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    406
    Points
    4,083
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,083, Level: 18
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 52.0%


    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting, I had always assumed that Jomon derived groups had a somewhat of a lower social status in Japanese society. This might just be another coincidence of course - these haplotypes must have already been widely dispersed by the time the imperial family was formally established. The ancient Jomon specimen seems to have contributed to all modern Japanese, indicating that a Jomon component was present during the initial Japonic dispersals.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,924
    Points
    556,014
    Level
    100
    Points: 556,014, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 79.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I am not sure how much credence to give to this. I tried to find a reliable source, but all I could find in the sources mentioned was that they analysed the patrilineal descendants of Emperor Higashiyama and found that the common haplogroup was D1b1a2 (IMS-JST022457). However the link provided to the Ysearch profile mentions that it is D2a1b. Now that's a big difference because haplogroup D1 is extremely rare in Japan, found only in 0.1% of the population, and is more typical of Tibet. But D2 is the most common haplogroup, found in 40% of Japanese men. So it would make sense that it is the latter. [EDIT] After checking the phylogeny, it appears that IMS-JST022457 has been renamed D1b1a2 in the new ISOGG tree, but is still D2a1b at FTDNA.

    Yet, it is still surprising that Japanese emperors should belong to a Jomon lineage, when the new Iron-Age conquerors from the continent were the Yayoi people, carrying haplogroups C3, N, O1, O2a, O2b and O3. When we know how easily the Proto-Indo-Europeans imposed their Y-DNA lineages onto conquered populations in western Eurasia, it is extremely unlikely that the Yayoi people didn't manage the same feat. After all the PIE were an early Bronze Age people conquering Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic neighbours, but the Yayoi were very developed Late Iron Age Sino-Koreans invading Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (Jomon). The gap is also as big as between Europeans and Native Americans in the 16th century. The Jomon didn't stand a chance and would never have been able to maintain political power.

    If the test results are correct (either for D1b or D2a), then there is also the possibility that one (or several) non-paternity event(s) took place since ancient times. This has now been confirmed to have happened frequently even among recent European monarchies. Napoleon III was not the biological nephew of Napoleon I. Marie-Antoinette had at least one child whose father was not Louis XVI (but apparently Count Axel von Fersen). Richard III was not related to the other descendants of the Plantagenet line. And so on.

    But if the Japanese emperors have belonged to to D-M64.1 for long enough (over a thousand years), it could explain why this haplogroup is more common today (40% of male lineages) than the amount of Jomon autosomal DNA (about 30 to 35%). I had always wondered how the conquered Jomon could have passed more Y-DNA than mtDNA, when in most conquered societies the opposite typically happens. I read before that D2 was the most common haplogroup among the samurai class, which could have explained the positive selection, but not that much considering that samurai didn't marry outside their class or take numerous concubines. But Japanese emperors had plenty of concubines and illegitimate children. Furthermore, D2 is most common in the Kansai and Kanto region, i.e. around Kyoto and Tokyo, which is also counter-intuitive as these are the seats of Yayoi power. Looking at the Y-DNA frequencies in Japan 1500 to 2000 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if haplogroup D2 were much lower than it is today, and that the success of that very specific lineage was in fact due to the imperial connection, and spread over time via the aristocracy. The famous Wiki page in link above also mentions that Minamoto no Yoritomo, the first shogun of the Kamakura period, and a member of the powerful historical Genji clan (the same as in the Tale of Genji), also belonged to the imperial D-IMS-JST022457 lineage (see Y-DNA haplotype).

    [EDIT] : This article mentions that 6 million Japanese people carry the same Y-DNA lineage as the Imperial family and Genji clan, and that they share a common ancestor about 1000 years ago. That would seem to confirm an exponential propagation linked to the imperial family and the top noble families from the Heian period (794-1185) onward. The article also mentions that descendants of the Fujiwara family (which includes people with surnames like Sato, Saito, Muto, Kato, etc. today) belong to haplogroup O2b1a.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    253
    Points
    2,911
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,911, Level: 15
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 139
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    [EDIT] : This article mentions that 6 million Japanese people carry the same Y-DNA lineage as the Imperial family and Genji clan, and that they share a common ancestor about 1000 years ago. That would seem to confirm an exponential propagation linked to the imperial family and the top noble families from the Heian period (794-1185) onward. The article also mentions that descendants of the Fujiwara family (which includes people with surnames like Sato, Saito, Muto, Kato, etc. today) belong to haplogroup O2b1a.
    That is why many scholars link O2b1 to yayoi, which only 8% korean and 24 japanese have.

    Yayoi route: It started from Manchu, not mainland of China, which means Yayoi Hg is O2b.

    https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.co...ayoi-arrivals/

    --> Farmers and their languages - Jared Diamond

    Japanese.Around 400 B.C., intensive rice agriculture, new pottery styles, and new tools, all based on Korean models, appeared on the southwestmost Japanese island of Kyushu near Korea and spread northeast up the Japanese archipelago.
    Genes and skeletons of the modern Japanese suggest that they arose as a hybrid population between arriving Korean rice farmers and a prior Japanese population similar to the modern Ainu and responsible for Japan’s earlier Jomon pottery. Modern southwest-to-northeast gene clines in Japan and DNA extracted from ancient skeletons support this interpretation (59, 60). Japanese origins would thus rival Bantu origins as the most concordant and unequivocal example of an agricultural expansion, were it not for the flagrant discordance of the linguistic
    evidence. If Korean farmers really did become dominant in Japan as recently as 400 B.C., one might have expected the modern Japanese and Korean languages to be as closely similar as other languages that diverged at such a recent date (e.g., German and Swedish), whereas their relationship is in fact much more distant.
    The likely explanation is language replacement in the Korean homeland. Early Korea consisted of three kingdoms with distinct languages. The modern Korean language is derived from that of the ancient Korean kingdom of Silla, the ingdom that unified Korea. However, the now-extinct language of one of the two ancient Korean kingdoms that Silla defeated, Koguryo, was much more similar to Old Japanese than is Sillan or modern Korean (61). Thus, a Koguryo-like language may have been spoken by the Korean farmers arriving in Japan, may have evolved into modern Japanese, and may have been replaced in Korea itself by Sillan that evolved into modern Korean.
    - However, there is a possibility of a person with Hg D who looks like east Asian, not Jomon nor Ainu to be royal King, I think. Warriors were the high caste in ancient Japan. If D person were the greatest warrior with charisma, there would be a chance of chance to marry princess.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yet, it is still surprising that Japanese emperors should belong to a Jomon lineage, when the new Iron-Age conquerors from the continent were the Yayoi people, carrying haplogroups C3, N, O1, O2a, O2b and O3. When we know how easily the Proto-Indo-Europeans imposed their Y-DNA lineages onto conquered populations in western Eurasia, it is extremely unlikely that the Yayoi people didn't manage the same feat. After all the PIE were an early Bronze Age people conquering Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic neighbours, but the Yayoi were very developed Late Iron Age Sino-Koreans invading Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (Jomon). The gap is also as big as between Europeans and Native Americans in the 16th century. The Jomon didn't stand a chance and would never have been able to maintain political power.
    Emperor was also a religious leader, so nothing strange, if after invasion, local shaman still would make his duty - as it was for example during shogunat period, when Emperor had no power. Btw, similar situation was during conquista of Amercias, when Spanish allow local rulers to be on their's posts. But on this case, obviosuly, they couldn;t stay no longer as few years, but if Spanish would be pagans, who belived in all spirits, then the heirs od Atahualpa and Montezuma could stay as a religios local leaders until this day. Similar politics had Roman Empire and many other pagan cultures. Btw, it is enaugh to look, how Indoeuropeans didn't exterminate belives of Old Europe, and how this belives influenced their later culture, to undersdtand, that Jomon emerors could stay alive after Japanese people arrived.

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    253
    Points
    2,911
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,911, Level: 15
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 139
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Emperor was also a religious leader, so nothing strange, if after invasion, local shaman still would make his duty - as it was for example during shogunat period, when Emperor had no power. Btw, similar situation was during conquista of Amercias, when Spanish allow local rulers to be on their's posts. But on this case, obviosuly, they couldn;t stay no longer as few years, but if Spanish would be pagans, who belived in all spirits, then the heirs od Atahualpa and Montezuma could stay as a religios local leaders until this day. Similar politics had Roman Empire and many other pagan cultures. Btw, it is enaugh to look, how Indoeuropeans didn't exterminate belives of Old Europe, and how this belives influenced their later culture, to undersdtand, that Jomon emerors could stay alive after Japanese people arrived.
    As far as I know, yayoi people were shamanic people. Their shaman had the following bone
    used for fortune-telling
    , which was also found in Korea, Manchuria, shang.

    https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.co...yayoi-culture/

    So they did not need other people shaman. As far as I know jomon people disappeared 3c.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    ThirdTerm's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-16
    Posts
    48
    Points
    1,254
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,254, Level: 9
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Russian Federation



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup D, the haplogroup of the Japanese warrior class, may have entered the royal bloodline through intermarriages with samurai families practiced for many centuries when the royal family was out of power, if the Japanese DNA test results on the descendants of Emperor Higashiyama are accurate. Ancient Japan was ruled by the emperors and aristocrats until Minamoto no Yoritomo founded the Kamakura Shogunate of Japan in the 12th century. Yoritomo plausibly belonged to Haplogroup D as he had a lowly origin. The samurai class was originally lowly mercenaries who were hired to protect aristocrats but they eventually grew too strong. On the other hand, the Japanese aristocrats carried Haplogroup O and maintained their close cultural ties with Korea. Emperor Higashiyama lived in the Edo era when the country was ruled by the Tokugawa family from the warrior class. The Japanese royal family barely maintained a marginal existence at that time, while frequently intermarrying with the Tokugawa family to stay safe and relevant. As a result, the current royal family is mainly descended from the Tokugawa family and some other distinguished samurai families (hg D). Moreover, Emperor Ojin who founded the Yamato dynasty in the 3rd century very likely belonged to Haplogroup O. Emperor Ojin is also known as Homutawake, who is believed to be a Korean prince named Homuta who was on a mission to conquer Japan. The Japanese royal family prohibits any historical or genetic research on royal tombs and we will not have a definite answer for their genetic ancestry for many years to come.



    The horse-rider theory (kiba minzoku setsu) was proposed by Egami Namio, a professor of Asian history at Tokyo University. It generally holds that the unified state was founded by a group of horse-riding warriors, who entered or invaded the Japanese islands, conquered the native rulers, and established themselves as Japan’s ruling class. Egami examined the Kofun Tombs and noted that tombs of the Late Tomb (5th – 6th centuries) period contained items different from the previous centuries: weapons, armor, horse trappings and ceramic figurines of warriors and other persons which Egami said were “realistic, warlike, baronial, horse-riding and North Asian” looking. Egami also thought the “Chin king” identified in Chinese sources was of horse rider origin connected with Puyo or Koguryo, and that Emperor Sujin was linked to or descended from the Chin king line.

    Many variations of this horse-rider theory have developed since Egami’s time. The theories differ on the origin and ethnic identity of those invading warriors from the Asian continent, on the time of their arrival in Japan, the route they took and the way they came to dominate Japanese society.

    In one variation – an ethnologist Oka Masao examined the cultural traits of the Kofun period peoples and identified four different cultures, the last of which he believed was the “imperial race” that dominated Japan during the Kofun period had originated in eastern Manchuria as a mixed herding and farming people and that in the 2nd and 3rd century it had moved through the Korean peninsula and into Japan. He believed that they were culturally and ethnically closely related to the ancient Puyo and Koguryo states on the Korean peninsula.

    I noticed that Yoritomo was remotely related to the royal family and his distant ancestor was Emperor Seiwa (850-881). I missed the connection and mistakenly grouped Yoritomo and Tokugawa together as the samurai clan in the post above. D1b1a2 could actually be the haplogroup of the imperial clan from the Heian era to today, considering the fact that both Yoritomo and Higashiyama belong to D1b1a2, which cannot be a mere coincidence. However, anything could have happened in 500 years between the founding of the Yamato dynasty to the Heian era. There were several known succession crises for the imperial clan prior to the Heian era, in which royal heirs were mysteriously discovered, probably adopted from noble families. These powerful indigenous clans vying for power such as the Mononobe clan could have introduced D1b1a2 to the royal bloodline. For instance, Emperor Keitai who is believed to be the fifth generation grandson of Emperor Ojin may not be related to Emperor Ojin at all. Emperor Buretsu died without a son and Emperor Keitai is thought to be hailed from the powerful Okinaga clan from Omi.
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 11-10-16 at 08:23.

  12. #12
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,924
    Points
    556,014
    Level
    100
    Points: 556,014, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 79.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    Haplogroup D, the haplogroup of the Japanese warrior class, may have entered the royal bloodline through intermarriages with samurai families practiced for many centuries when the royal family was out of power, if the Japanese DNA test results on the descendants of Emperor Higashiyama are accurate. Ancient Japan was ruled by the emperors and aristocrats until Minamoto no Yorimoto founded the Kamakura Shogunate of Japan in the 12th century. Yorimoto plausibly belonged to Haplogroup D as he had a lowly origin. The samurai class was originally lowly mercenaries who were hired to protect aristocrats but they eventually grew too strong. On the other hand, the Japanese aristocrats carried Haplogroup O and maintained their close cultural ties with Korea. Emperor Higashiyama lived in the Edo era when the country was ruled by the Tokugawa family from the warrior class. The Japanese royal family barely maintained a marginal existence at that time, while frequently intermarrying with the Tokugawa family to stay safe and relevant. As a result, the current royal family is mainly descended from the Tokugawa family and some other distinguished samurai families (hg D). Moreover, Emperor Ojin who founded the Yamato dynasty in the 3rd century very likely belonged to Haplogroup O. Emperor Ojin is also known as Homutawake, who is believed to be a Korean prince named Homuta who was on a mission to conquer Japan. The Japanese royal family prohibits any historical or genetic research on royal tombs and we will not have a definite answer on their genetic ancestry for many years to come.
    I rarely say that, but what a bunch of nonsense! Let's look at it step by step.

    Haplogroup D, the haplogroup of the Japanese warrior class, may have entered the royal bloodline through intermarriages with samurai families practiced for many centuries when the royal family was out of power
    First, there is no royal family in Japan, but an imperial family.

    Second, the emperor being a god-like figure, he did not bother himself with actually ruling or running the country, a job he left to his ministers (during the Heian period), then to the shogun (in subsequent periods until 1867), then to a modern cabinet of ministers (from 1867).

    Thirdly, all Japanese emperors were the sons of other emperors. There has been a dozen or so regnant Japanese empresses, but these were all the wives of a dead emperor, never the daughter who inherited her father's title (the law has only been changed a few years ago to allowed daughters to inherit the throne, like in the UK). Therefore no samurai or shogun, nor anybody else could have legitimately passed his Y-DNA to the Imperial line. It could only have happened if an crown princess or empress had an affair and bore the son of another man than her husband.

    Yorimoto plausibly belonged to Haplogroup D as he had a lowly origin.
    That's a completely tenuous claim. Most of the population was a lowly origin and nevertheless, even today, after centuries of emperors, aristocrats and samurai leaving D1b1a2 bastards, haplogroup O still makes up nearly 60% of the male lineages. So a majority of peasants belonged to haplogroup O at any time in the last 2000 years.

    On the other hand, the Japanese aristocrats carried Haplogroup O and maintained their close cultural ties with Korea.
    Yet the Minamoto clan appears to be D1b1a2, not O. Everything you say is pure speculations and completely unsubstantiated. Close cultural ties with Korea? When? How? Are you referring to the failed Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–98), or perhaps even the failed Mongol invasions of Japan from Korea between 1274 and 1281? Clearly the relations were rarely cordial.

    As a result, the current royal family is mainly descended from the Tokugawa family and some other distinguished samurai families (hg D).
    They do descend partly from the Tokugawa, but on the maternal lines of emperors. The Tokugawa never passed their Y-DNA.

    Moreover, Emperor Ojin who founded the Yamato dynasty in the 3rd century very likely belonged to Haplogroup O. Emperor Ojin is also known as Homutawake, who is believed to be a Korean prince named Homuta who was on a mission to conquer Japan.
    Ojin was a Korean prince now? So you don't think he was the son of Emperor Chūai and the grandson of Emperor Seimu? Actually it sounds like you are confusing everything. Ojin's father was on a mission to conquer a land thought to be part of modern-day Korea, not the other way round. FYI, the Yayoi people arrived in Japan from Korea c. 500 BCE, i.e. 700 years before Ojin was supposedly born. Anyway this period is not recorded in writing and is at best legendary. But archaeology and ancient DNA tests don't lie, and the dating of the Yayoi invasion is clearly over 2300 years ago.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Moi-même's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-16
    Location
    Quebec City
    Posts
    63
    Points
    1,449
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,449, Level: 10
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 101
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    French Canadian
    Country: Canada-Quebec



    The Imperial Regalia of Japan are:

    The sword Kusanagi no Tsurugi;
    The mirror Yata no Kagami;
    The jewel Yasakani no Magatama.

    All of them would be Yayoi farmer introductions...

    Yet, it is still surprising that Japanese emperors should belong to a Jomon lineage, when the new Iron-Age conquerors from the continent were the Yayoi people, carrying haplogroups C3, N, O1, O2a, O2b and O3. When we know how easily the Proto-Indo-Europeans imposed their Y-DNA lineages onto conquered populations in western Eurasia, it is extremely unlikely that the Yayoi people didn't manage the same feat. After all the PIE were an early Bronze Age people conquering Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic neighbours, but the Yayoi were very developed Late Iron Age Sino-Koreans invading Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (Jomon). The gap is also as big as between Europeans and Native Americans in the 16th century. The Jomon didn't stand a chance and would never have been able to maintain political power.
    Maybe it was closer to Vikings vs Native Americans, and Vikings didn't get the upper hand that time. Or maybe the Jomon shaman just happen to strike the soil with a staff the moment a major earthquake took place. Or they attacked the Yayoi just after a tsunami destroy their village. Or the village was destroy by a tsunami after the Jomon shaman cursed them. Or maybe some volcano erupted? Japan is such a wild piece of land, with the right timing and enough drama, Jomon could have looked like the masters of the natural forces.

  14. #14
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,924
    Points
    556,014
    Level
    100
    Points: 556,014, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 79.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Moi-même View Post
    The Imperial Regalia of Japan are:

    The sword Kusanagi no Tsurugi;
    The mirror Yata no Kagami;
    The jewel Yasakani no Magatama.
    All of them would be Yayoi farmer introductions...
    Good point.

    Maybe it was closer to Vikings vs Native Americans, and Vikings didn't get the upper hand that time. Or maybe the Jomon shaman just happen to strike the soil with a staff the moment a major earthquake took place. Or they attacked the Yayoi just after a tsunami destroy their village. Or the village was destroy by a tsunami after the Jomon shaman cursed them. Or maybe some volcano erupted? Japan is such a wild piece of land, with the right timing and enough drama, Jomon could have looked like the masters of the natural forces.
    The Vikings didn't get the upper hand because those who reached North America were just a bunch of adventurers. They never sent a true colonising expedition. They didn't come with farm animals, grain, smithing equipment, wives, children and all.

    As for Japanese emperors, the mythology goes back to 660 BCE, which precedes the Yayoi invasion. That doesn't make sense, but it shouldn't as it's just unrecorded mythology. We will know what happened once geneticists are allowed to test ancient imperial remains.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    As for Japanese emperors, the mythology goes back to 660 BCE, which precedes the Yayoi invasion. That doesn't make sense, but it shouldn't as it's just unrecorded mythology. We will know what happened once geneticists are allowed to test ancient imperial remains.
    Or Yayoi invasion is simply wrongly dated, or emperors surrvied the invasion.

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    253
    Points
    2,911
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,911, Level: 15
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 139
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ojin was a Korean prince now? So you don't think he was the son of Emperor Chūai and the grandson of Emperor Seimu? Actually it sounds like you are confusing everything. Ojin's father was on a mission to conquer a land thought to be part of modern-day Korea, not the other way round. FYI, the Yayoi people arrived in Japan from Korea c. 500 BCE, i.e. 700 years before Ojin was supposedly born. Anyway this period is not recorded in writing and is at best legendary. But archaeology and ancient DNA tests don't lie, and the dating of the Yayoi invasion is clearly over 2300 years ago.
    Did japan invade in Korea at that time? As far as I know, at that time Korean was horseback archer, but the horse was not introduced in Japan.

    And if that happened, the following thing would not happened.
    Wani (Japanese: Wani, Wani Kishi (王仁, 和邇吉師?)) is a semi-legendary scholar who is said to have been sent toJapan by Baekje of southwestern Korea during the reign of Emperor Ōjin. He used to be associated with the introduction of the Chinese writing system to Japan.
    Wani is mentioned only in Japanese history books; he is not recorded in Chinese or Korean sources.[1] The main sources of Wani's biography are the Nihon Shoki(720) and theKojiki(712).
    In the 15th year [of the Emperor Ōjin's reign](404 A.D.), in autumn, in August, new moon of rén-xū, dīng-mǎo (the sixth), the King of Baekje dispatched Achiki and offered up two good horses as a tribute [to Japan, along with him]. Then, they were reared in the stable (umaya) atop the hill (saka) of Karu. And, Achiki was entrusted to raise them. Therefore, the place where the horses were raised was called Umayasaka. Achiki also read the Confucian classics well. Then, Prince Uji-no-Waki-Iratsuko took him as his teacher. Now, the Emperor inquired to Achiki, saying, "Is there any scholar superior to you?" He replied, "There is a man called Wani. He is excellent." Then, the Emperor dispatched Aratawake and Kamunagiwake (a male oracle), who were ancestors of the Kamitsuke-no-Kimi clan, to Baekje, to summon Wani. This Achiki is the progenitor of the Achiki-no-Fubito clan. In the 16th year, in spring, in February, Wani had come. Then, Prince Uji-no-Waki-Iratsuko took him as his teacher, learned various classics under him and there was nothing he didn't become thoroughly acquainted with. This so-called Wani was the progenitor of the Fumi-no-Obito clan.
    — Nihon Shoki, Vol. 10[2]
    And, [the Emperor Ōjin] ordered [Geunchogo, the King of] Baekje, "If there is any wise man, offer him up as tribute." The person whose name, offered by the command, was Wani-Kishi. And, [the King] gave, as tributes, along with him, ten volumes of the Analects and one volume of the thousand character classics.This Wani-Kishi is the progenitor of the Fumi-no-Obito clan.
    — Kojiki, middle volume[3]
    The word “tribute” is still questionable, b/c 220,000 Korean history books were burnt during Imperial japan in 20 century.
    Of course, Korean historians have totally different opinions. However, we can know the level of culture in Japan at that time.

    Thus, we need to depend upon the anthropology, which don’t tell a lie.

    East Asian cranial analysis by Hawaii Unv. Pietrusewsky, M(2010):
    Inspection of the closest distances further reveals that Edo,Tohoku, Marunouchi, Kanto, and Kyushu are among the seriesclosest to Manchuria, Anyang, and Korea. Korea is frequently closest to several of the Japanese series (e.g., Kanto, Edo, Kofun, Yayoi,Tohoku, and Kyushu)
    Kofun : the early 3rd century and the early 7th century AD
    Edo: 1603 and 1868
    Emperor Ōjin: in Kofun period

  17. #17
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,924
    Points
    556,014
    Level
    100
    Points: 556,014, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 79.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Or Yayoi invasion is simply wrongly dated, or emperors surrvied the invasion.
    Since when do hunter-gatherers have emperors?
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Moi-même's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-16
    Location
    Quebec City
    Posts
    63
    Points
    1,449
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,449, Level: 10
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 101
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1

    Ethnic group
    French Canadian
    Country: Canada-Quebec



    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Or Yayoi invasion is simply wrongly dated, or emperors surrvied the invasion.
    The time of the invasion come from archaeology dating techniques, so unless they missed an early site near the entry point...

    Or, like you proposed, a Jomon chieftain is the progenitor of the Emperors' line and the Yayoi gave him the sword and the mirror. As for the Yamagata jewels, it seems they predate the Yayoi invasion in the Nippon archipelago, although they were less sophisticated than the later version made of jade.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magata...ni_no_Magatama

    They also add:

    the use of the mirror, sword, and jewels as status symbols for village, and later regional leaders of all kinds, emerged in the Yayoi period, and point to the origin of the mirror, sword, and magatama as the Imperial Regalia of Japan.[16]
    So there was probably Yayoi chieftains and Jomon chieftains sharing the same symbols and exchanging wives, until about a millennium later, when they couldn't say who was Jomon or Yayoi, a chieftain and his descendants conquered their neighbors until they became Emperors of Japan. This chieftain happened to be the descendant of a Jomon clan.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Since when do hunter-gatherers have emperors?
    Since institutions of chief or shaman were developed.
    And archeology shows only a small piece of picture of the life of people.
    Btw, Yayoi period could began also earlier - 300 BC it is not absolutly sure date.
    But anyway, whatever happend, D-guy became the important one.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Moi-même View Post
    The time of the invasion come from archaeology dating techniques, so unless they missed an early site near the entry point...

    Or, like you proposed, a Jomon chieftain is the progenitor of the Emperors' line and the Yayoi gave him the sword and the mirror. As for the Yamagata jewels, it seems they predate the Yayoi invasion in the Nippon archipelago, although they were less sophisticated than the later version made of jade.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magata...ni_no_Magatama

    They also add:



    So there was probably Yayoi chieftains and Jomon chieftains sharing the same symbols and exchanging wives, until about a millennium later, when they couldn't say who was Jomon or Yayoi, a chieftain and his descendants conquered their neighbors until they became Emperors of Japan. This chieftain happened to be the descendant of a Jomon clan.
    Very reasonable.

  21. #21
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,924
    Points
    556,014
    Level
    100
    Points: 556,014, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 79.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Since institutions of chief or shaman were developed.
    And archeology shows only a small piece of picture of the life of people.
    Btw, Yayoi period could began also earlier - 300 BC it is not absolutly sure date.
    But anyway, whatever happend, D-guy became the important one.
    I think it's much more likely that the title of emperor only appeared after the Yayoi had colonised most of Japan (except Tohoku and Hokkaido). The Jomon were animistic and almost certainly lacked the concept of human-like deities found in polytheisms and monotheisms. There are two very distinct kinds of Shintoism in Japan: prehistoric, Jomon-derived animistic Shinto, and Buddhist/Hindu-influenced Shinbutsu-shūgō, which evolved into State Shinto with the cult of the emperor as a deity. But Buddhism only arrived in Japan in the 6th century, over 1000 years after the arrival of Yayoi people. It is not clear when Japanese emperors acquired their divine status. The first to be associated with a deity was actually Emperor Ojin, who was enshrined as Hachiman, the God of War, after his death. Even after that, other emperors didn't carry the same divine status as modern emperors since the Meiji Restoration. That's an invention of State Shinto.

    If you feel like it, you can read my article on the six faces of Japanese religion.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  22. #22
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,924
    Points
    556,014
    Level
    100
    Points: 556,014, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 79.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moi-même View Post
    The time of the invasion come from archaeology dating techniques, so unless they missed an early site near the entry point...

    Or, like you proposed, a Jomon chieftain is the progenitor of the Emperors' line and the Yayoi gave him the sword and the mirror. As for the Yamagata jewels, it seems they predate the Yayoi invasion in the Nippon archipelago, although they were less sophisticated than the later version made of jade.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magata...ni_no_Magatama

    They also add:



    So there was probably Yayoi chieftains and Jomon chieftains sharing the same symbols and exchanging wives, until about a millennium later, when they couldn't say who was Jomon or Yayoi, a chieftain and his descendants conquered their neighbors until they became Emperors of Japan. This chieftain happened to be the descendant of a Jomon clan.
    If that is the case, then the concept of Japanese emperor didn't appear until the late Yayoi, and indeed the first emperor who is considered to have truly existed, as opposed to earlier invented legendary figures, is Sujin (97-30 BCE) during the Late Yayoi period.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-09-14
    Posts
    189
    Points
    2,121
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,121, Level: 12
    Level completed: 91%, Points required for next Level: 29
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post

    The horse-rider theory (kiba minzoku setsu) was proposed by Egami Namio, a professor of Asian history at Tokyo University. It generally holds that the unified state was founded by a group of horse-riding warriors, who entered or invaded the Japanese islands, conquered the native rulers, and established themselves as Japan’s ruling class. Egami examined the Kofun Tombs and noted that tombs of the Late Tomb (5th – 6th centuries) period contained items different from the previous centuries: weapons, armor, horse trappings and ceramic figurines of warriors and other persons which Egami said were “realistic, warlike, baronial, horse-riding and North Asian” looking. Egami also thought the “Chin king” identified in Chinese sources was of horse rider origin connected with Puyo or Koguryo, and that Emperor Sujin was linked to or descended from the Chin king line.

    Many variations of this horse-rider theory have developed since Egami’s time. The theories differ on the origin and ethnic identity of those invading warriors from the Asian continent, on the time of their arrival in Japan, the route they took and the way they came to dominate Japanese society.

    In one variation – an ethnologist Oka Masao examined the cultural traits of the Kofun period peoples and identified four different cultures, the last of which he believed was the “imperial race” that dominated Japan during the Kofun period had originated in eastern Manchuria as a mixed herding and farming people and that in the 2nd and 3rd century it had moved through the Korean peninsula and into Japan. He believed that they were culturally and ethnically closely related to the ancient Puyo and Koguryo states on the Korean peninsula.

    Anyone connected the Japanese N1c to these horse-riders? That is the standard method of N1c arrival.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    18-04-14
    Posts
    574
    Points
    1,292
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,292, Level: 9
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    That is the standard method of N1c arrival.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-09-14
    Posts
    189
    Points
    2,121
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,121, Level: 12
    Level completed: 91%, Points required for next Level: 29
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Finland





    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    The origin of the most frequent Y-chromosomal haplotypes (Ht1 and Ht2) was difficult to establish on the basis of genetic information. Indeed, these two lineages belonging to haplogroup N1c seem to be restricted to Yakut populations, and were probably present since the period they were first located in Central Yakutia. Interestingly, the comparison with archaeological data revealed that the male individuals (YAKa34, 39, 40, 69, 78) at the beginning of the 18th century, identified as Clan Chiefs (or tojons) on the basis of their grave goods (weapons, jewelry, silk clothes, richly ornamented saddles and signet rings), belonged to these two haplotypes. Therefore, archaeological data could bring interesting information in tracing back the origin of these enigmatic male lineages. Indeed, the grave goods of the 15th/17th centuries (weapons and horse harnesses) and the construction of coffins with an empty trunk from the 18th century are similar to the burial customs of the Cis-Baïkal area [44] and of the Egyin Gol Necropolis during the 3rd century BC [45-47]. This suggests that the male ancestors of the Yakuts were probably formed of a small group of horse-riders originating from Northern Mongolia or the Baïkal Lake.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2010/01/...en-yakuts.html

    A recent study shows that the Nordic coldblood horses are not genetically closest relatives to the Finnhorse. The researchers have found the same genes in Estonian, North-Russian and Mongolian horses. The results were surprising.
    But it seems that the closest relatives to finnhorses would be the old eastern breeds Yakutian horse from Siberia, Mongolian horse, Estonian horse and Mezen horse.
    https://finnhorseblog.com/2014/09/27...-horse-breeds/

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •