Politics Italian Constitutional Reform referendum

[Angela]

Benzgolv, its still used where I live, Napolitani will always answer back "Napole e gia fatt'" in dialect of course.

Sile I mistakenly realized that it seemed I was talking about my cousins livornese husband, I was talking about my cousins husband from the south, so it would be teron.

Angela, I know we had we our differences before and I don't want an argument, I'll just say us diaspora should count as well as there are more Italians outside of Italy than living in Italy, plus some of us including myself are dual citizens.

Whatever the outcome is for the referendum us Italians got to stick by it and hope for the prosperity of Italy.

Azzurro, I'm assuming you're second or third generation, yes? In that case, it's very nice that you are proud of your heritage and are attached to the country of your ancestors' birth. However, I'm afraid that Italian-Canadians, and Italian-Americans, and Italian-Australians, are not Italians as far as I'm concerned and as far as many actual Italians are concerned. Even more so when they're on record as wanting their ancestral regions to secede.

I'm not at all in favor of diaspora Italians, who are only connected to Italy by genetics, but who don't speak the language, don't understand the peculiarities of the politics, and aren't living there to experience the consequences (or being called upon to serve in the military) being allowed to vote in Italian elections. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

I also think that people whose only experience with Italy is second or third hand through parents and grandparents and a visit or two on vacation are not qualified to make vast pronouncements on Italian society. I believe a little humility is in order.

Furthermore, although this doesn't apply to you, I will never understand how people who would never use the n-word feel empowered to toss pejoratives at other Italians.

None of this is meant as a personal attack against you of any kind. I hope you understand that.

Now, perhaps we can keep to the facts of the issue.

 

[Benzgolv]

Azzurro, I'm assuming you're second or third generation, yes? In that case, it's very nice that you are proud of your heritage and are attached to the country of your ancestors' birth. However, I'm afraid that Italian-Canadians, and Italian-Americans, and Italian-Australians, are not Italians as far as I'm concerned and as far as many actual Italians are concerned. Even more so when they're on record as wanting their ancestral regions to secede.I'm not at all in favor of diaspora Italians, who are only connected to Italy by genetics, but who don't speak the language, don't understand the peculiarities of the politics, and aren't living there to experience the consequences (or being called upon to serve in the military) being allowed to vote in Italian elections. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.I also think that people whose only experience with Italy is second or third hand through parents and grandparents and a visit or two on vacation are not qualified to make vast pronouncements on Italian society. I believe a little humility is in order.Furthermore, although this doesn't apply to you, I will never understand how people who would never use the n-word feel empowered to toss pejoratives at other Italians. None of this is meant as a personal attack against you of any kind. I hope you understand that.Now, perhaps we can keep to the facts of the issue.

Angela, I understand how you feel and I respect that. But I'm third generation Piedmontese-Argentine and we kept lots of customs that the piedmontese in Italy have lost, since I met a piedmontese who came to Argentina and the fact that we still ate vitel toné and bagna cauda surprised him, as well as the use of "de" preposition to mean "to" (I don't know how to explain that since I don't speak Italian very well).Now let's go back to the real issue. I would like to know how you feel about the future of Italy regarding the referendum and, if you want to share it, what would you vote and why? You are the only Italian here and your experience must be more accurate.

 

[Angela]

Angela, I understand how you feel and I respect that. But I'm third generation Piedmontese-Argentine and we kept lots of customs that the piedmontese in Italy have lost, since I met a piedmontese who came to Argentina and the fact that we still ate vitel toné and bagna cauda surprised him, as well as the use of "de" preposition to mean "to" (I don't know how to explain that since I don't speak Italian very well).Now let's go back to the real issue. I would like to know how you feel about the future of Italy regarding the referendum and, if you want to share it, what would you vote and why? You are the only Italian here and your experience must be more accurate.

I'm on my way out, so I'll respond to your question later when I have some time. I appreciate your courtesy and reasonableness.

No, I'm not the only Italian here, although I'm the one who posts most frequently. As far as my own relatives are concerned, despite having been born there, having spent my childhood there, done part of my university studies there, and being there at least a month a year, I'm not Italian enough to vote. They know I can, they just don't think I should, because, as I said, I don't currently pay taxes there, I don't have to deal with the bureaucracy there, my son didn't have to do military service there, and overall, I won't have to deal with the consequences.

Anyway, as I said, I do still have opinions, and I'll briefly share them when I have a moment.

 

[Benzgolv]

I'm on my way out, so I'll respond to your question later when I have some time. I appreciate your courtesy and reasonableness.No, I'm not the only Italian here, although I'm the one who posts most frequently. As far as my own relatives are concerned, despite having been born there, having spent my childhood there, done part of my university studies there, and being there at least a month a year, I'm not Italian enough to vote. They know I can, they just don't think I should, because, as I said, I don't currently pay taxes there, I don't have to deal with the bureaucracy there, my son didn't have to do military service there, and overall, I won't have to deal with the consequences.Anyway, as I said, I do still have opinions, and I'll briefly share them when I have a moment.

They must have a point, I respect that but I don't think that one must pay taxes or do military service in order to be entitled to vote. I wait for your reflexion!

 

[Yetos]

If they put as a demand the

1. pay taxes
2. military obligations
3. non conviction by law
4. not to own to someone.
5. 1 square m of earth property

I think they will give the meaning of vote and citizenship an update.
like at the old democracies when they were born.

giving vote and citizenship to whoever and whatever is not a wise think, at least for me,
and to the old and ancient Νομοθετες, democracy law writers,

and you avoid the vote of stupidity and communists, and lazy fed by state people
and you ask justice of state to protect you from Mt Peleren club wolves

citizenship for state, and state for citizens, not bankers,

I want my taxes to go to protect my family, to health, to secure, to education,
not to end at the pockets of a banker or a big multinational corporation.

Neither to cure any stupid who works for no stamps, or a lazy who wants to be fed by state,

healthy democracy is the one has active citizens, and active state,

Not the numbers of stock echange neither the deposit at a bank

PS
I wish that we should have these demands at my country.

 

[Benzgolv]

If they put as a demand the

1. pay taxes
2. military obligations
3. non conviction by law
4. not to own to someone.
5. 1 square m of earth property

I think they will give the meaning of vote and citizenship an update.
like at the old democracies when they were born.

giving vote and citizenship to whoever and whatever is not a wise think, at least for me,
and to the old and ancient Νομοθετες, democracy law writers,

and you avoid the vote of stupidity and communists, and lazy fed by state people
and you ask justice of state to protect you from Mt Peleren club wolves

citizenship for state, and state for citizens, not bankers,

I want my taxes to go to protect my family, to health, to secure, to education,
not to end at the pockets of a banker or a big multinational corporation.

I don't agree. I think voting shouldn't be mandatory and everyone should be entitled to do so but by paying a fee. If it were like this, every voter would be worried and very interested and informed about the elections, avoiding ignorants who only vote for compromise and because it's free.
Also, I don't think state should provide everything to their citizens, but that's idiological (I'm in the libertaian right).

 

[Sile]

alternative universe? ................my mother still stirs her sister for marrying a tuscan from Lucca ......she calls tuscans torroni ....................you need to open your eyes and note just hang around the urban areas , but go to the rural towns as well

torrone ( nougat ) is venetian slang for desta dura ( stubbon people who do not compromise )

hope you are not calling my mother a liar!


maybe you mean the other venetian word of Teron ( southern Italians , but not sicilians )

or

maybe you refer to the 2015 arguments between the regions of Veneto and Toscana where the term Terroni was used......Renzi started this issue............google the issue yourself

I get an infraction for using the proper venetian term of southern italian






terón - N.ma. sing. -

ENG: Southern Italian , Italian (Southern I.) |

ITA: terrone , meridionale

originating from
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrone

Ha diverse varianti piuttosto diffuse e riconoscibili nelle lingue locali, come terún / terù / teron/ "tarùn" / "tarù" (lombardo), terún (ligure), terù / terún / tarún (piemontese), tarùn / taroch / terón (veneto, friulano), teròch / tarón (emiliano-romagnolo), terón / terró (marchigiano) o teróne / taròne in altri idiomi dell'Italia settentrionale, mentre rimane terrone in toscano e romanesco.


@Angela , just be honest for a change and state you have an issue with myself and stop being a racist on italians who use their regional language , yes it is called being a racist when you prevent people using their language

 

[Sile]

I get an infraction for using the proper venetian term of southern italian






terón - N.ma. sing. -

ENG: Southern Italian , Italian (Southern I.) |

ITA: terrone , meridionale

originating from
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrone

Ha diverse varianti piuttosto diffuse e riconoscibili nelle lingue locali, come terún / terù / teron/ "tarùn" / "tarù" (lombardo), terún (ligure), terù / terún / tarún (piemontese), tarùn / taroch / terón (veneto, friulano), teròch / tarón (emiliano-romagnolo), terón / terró (marchigiano) o teróne / taròne in altri idiomi dell'Italia settentrionale, mentre rimane terrone in toscano e romanesco.


@Angela , just be honest for a change and state you have an issue with myself and stop being a racist on italians who use their regional language , yes it is called being a racist when you prevent people using their language

With the fact that Teron is the only official word used
by northern Italians to describe a southern Italian , I clearly think it is time for you Angela to resign from your post as administrator
because it is clear to all that you have abused your power ..............it is the only decent thing to do

If you do not ,................ I call on Maciano to take this power from you. And while we are on the subject, you should set a fixed term for one to be an administrator

 

[Joey D]

I'm with Angela on this one.

I wouldn't call myself Italian in a blue fit.

 

[Azzurro]

I'm with Angela on this one.

I wouldn't call myself Italian in a blue fit.

Joey, we all have different views, for me I consider myself Italian regardless of what anyone tells me, I always have. It should not be anyones business to say what you are or what you are not. Anyways its always nice to hear from a fellow paesan, what part of Italy are your ancestors from?

 

[Joey D]

Hi Azzurro

I don't have any problem with that, each of us has the right to view ourselves as we wish.

I guess I was trying to be too clever by half by not wishing to be viewed as Italian (my parents are born in Sicily), so I would always view myself as being an Australian of Sicilian descent.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm looking forward to many such interesting discussions.

 

[Joey D]

Interestingly, all three of my Italian dictionaries carry the term terrone: derogatory term used by Northern Italians to describe Southern Italians.

We have a false friend in Sicilian, tirannu: che sta al livello del suolo; cammira tirrana camera a pianoterra; 2. di equino che inciampa molto frequentemente, cavaddu tirranu; 5. persona che cammina trascinando i piedi; 6. avv. rasente a terra 7. camminari tirranu trascinando i piedi.

Interesting that there's another thread seeking out gaps in the English language for specific words to describe something specific.

Well this one's a beauty, tirranu, a person who walks around dragging his feet.

It just goes to show, when someone stoops to using derogatory terms, we can still turn that around into a valuable learning experience.

 

[Azzurro]

Hi Azzurro

I don't have any problem with that, each of us has the right to view ourselves as we wish.

I guess I was trying to be too clever by half by not wishing to be viewed as Italian (my parents are born in Sicily), so I would always view myself as being an Australian of Sicilian descent.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm looking forward to many such interesting discussions.

Joey, my mother is of Sicilian descent, which part of Sicily you from? I speak Sicilian dialect with my nonna all the time, of course it always a pleasure, yes in essence because we learn the varieties of all the dialects.

Quick question does your mom/zias/nonni call you Beddru me as well? Good old dialettu

 

[Joey D]

Joey, my mother is of Sicilian descent, which part of Sicily you from? I speak Sicilian dialect with my nonna all the time, of course it always a pleasure, yes in essence because we learn the varieties of all the dialects.

Quick question does your mom/zias/nonni call you Beddru me as well? Good old dialettu

Hi Azzurro
Sicilian is my mother tongue and I view it as a language.

I had an uncle, ziu Saru, who always called me beddu figghiu when I was a kid.

Without wanting to sound too full of myself, it is fair to say that I truly was 'u beddu figghiu. (pi veru pozzu diri ca ju era, e mi nn'arrestu, nu beddu figghiu)

 

[Azzurro]

Hi Azzurro
Sicilian is my mother tongue and I view it as a language.

I had an uncle, ziu Saru, who always called me beddu figghiu when I was a kid.

Without wanting to sound too full of myself, it is fair to say that I truly was 'u beddu figghiu. (pi veru pozzu diri ca ju era, e mi nn'arrestu, nu beddu figghiu)

Hi Joey,

Very admirable, as a kid I only spoke Sicilian until I was 4, yes indeed but its still latin derived, in fact Im taking latin now, and in the perfect tense in latin the ending of the second person singular is isti just like in Sicilian.

Grazie a diu beddru, I spell it with the ru because in my local paese dialect they add an r before the u. No offense taken, my nonna calls me Principe Azzurru, thats why I always use those names or variants as ids on forums. (Ad'da ci' ancora giuvanni si'ti).

My favorite line that my nonna says to me is "Ninu fa'dannu" or "ti raccumanna".

 

[Joey D]

Hi Joey,

Very admirable, as a kid I only spoke Sicilian until I was 4, yes indeed but its still latin derived, in fact Im taking latin now, and in the perfect tense in latin the ending of the second person singular is isti just like in Sicilian.

Grazie a diu beddru, I spell it with the ru because in my local paese dialect they add an r before the u. No offense taken, my nonna calls me Principe Azzurru, thats why I always use those names or variants as ids on forums. (Ad'da ci' ancora giuvanni si'ti).

My favorite line that my nonna says to me is "Ninu fa'dannu" or "ti raccumanna".

Interesting stuff.

Both parents and grand-parents are now passed away. I have an uncle and auntie still alive (around 80 years of age), and that's my last link to Sicilian. Only one of my cousins actually speaks (but she speaks it quite well).

My nanna used to say "ti raccumanna" to me as well!

My nanna had a zillion Sicilian expressions, and every now and then my auntie reminds me of some of them.

She reminded me of one recently, and funnily enough, I had occasion to use it a few times afterwards with my brother and sisters:

Nun bagnariti si nun chiovi.

Literally, don't get wet if it's not raining, or don't get involved (or take action) if you don't have to. Another favourite expression to say something similar is: nun cci ntricariti!

 

[Benzgolv]

It's amazing how Italians in Anglo countries kept their culture and some still use their language. Here in Argentina Italians shaped our culture (they represent more than 50% of the immigrants arrived) and then dissolved into the new Argentine culture. Of my piedmontese family we just kept food traditions and maybe the way of thinking.

@joey_D what do you think about the referendum?

 

[Joey D]

It's amazing how Italians in Anglo countries kept their culture and some still use their language. Here in Argentina Italians shaped our culture (they represent more than 50% of the immigrants arrived) and then dissolved into the new Argentine culture. Of my piedmontese family we just kept food traditions and maybe the way of thinking.

@joey_D what do you think about the referendum?

Hi Benzgolv
Firstly, please don't think that I'm the norm amongst Australians of Sicilian descent. By the time the 3rd generation comes along (e.g. my kids), it's all pretty much disappeared. Even in my own generation, I only have one cousin with whom I could talk Sicilian (which we don't do).

Italians, on the whole, have very much been absorbed into mainstream Australia.

Clearly, it would have taken a bit longer than may have occurred in Argentina, where linguistically it would have been easier for Italians to pick up the language from the very first generation.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember an old Argentine soapie called Rosa de Lejos (about a poor working-class girl who does good).

In that show there was an old man living in La Boca who spoke half Spanish half Italian, and I imagine that's what it would have been like for many of the first generation of Italian immigrants to Argentina, they could have made themselves understood quite readily, even if their Spanish wasn't perfect.

But for the likes of my dad, who spoke half Italian half English for much of his life in Australia, well, it obviously stood out a bit more.

With the children of immigrants born in Australia, the knowledge of Italian is a bit hit and miss (except for the few that might study it seriously).

By the third generation, it has pretty much gone altogether (with many Italian immigrants having arrived in Australia during the 50s and 60s, we're already up to the 4th generation, as a general observation).

 

[Benzgolv]

Hi Benzgolv
Firstly, please don't think that I'm the norm amongst Australians of Sicilian descent. By the time the 3rd generation comes along (e.g. my kids), it's all pretty much disappeared. Even in my own generation, I only have one cousin with whom I could talk Sicilian (which we don't do).

Italians, on the whole, have very much been absorbed into mainstream Australia.

Clearly, it would have taken a bit longer than may have occurred in Argentina, where linguistically it would have been easier for Italians to pick up the language from the very first generation.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember an old Argentine soapie called Rosa de Lejos (about a poor working-class girl who does good).

In that show there was an old man living in La Boca who spoke half Spanish half Italian, and I imagine that's what it would have been like for many of the first generation of Italian immigrants to Argentina, they could have made themselves understood quite readily, even if their Spanish wasn't perfect.

But for the likes of my dad, who spoke half Italian half English for much of his life in Australia, well, it obviously stood out a bit more.

With the children of immigrants born in Australia, the knowledge of Italian is a bit hit and miss (except for the few that might study it seriously).

By the third generation, it has pretty much gone altogether (with many Italian immigrants having arrived in Australia during the 50s and 60s, we're already up to the 4th generation, as a general observation).

I didn't heard about that as I am in my 20s haha. I agree with you that the fact that we spoke Spanish made it easier for Italians to integrate into our society and abandon their language. Also the similarity between the two languages resulted in an admixture which turned out to be Rio Platense Spanish (the dialect I speak as well as most argentinians) which has lots of Neapolitan, Genovese and Piedmontese words.

Plus, our great wave of inmigration took place from the 1880s to the early 1920s, so Italians have been here long time ago and the first generations are now dead (Pope Francis for example was born in the 30s and is second generation).

 

[Joey D]

^ All good points. I thought the immigration to Argentina had occurred during an earlier period, I just wasn't sure of the exact details.

I'm aware of a great-aunt who married and migrated to Argentina, probably around the 1930s.

On the referendum, personally, I can't believe Italians would choose to leave the EU.