ATP9 (MBA Iberia, ca. 1600 BC)

[Tomenable]

Genetiker, have you tested also MARC1492, or only samples from South America?

GEDmatch Z648313 = MARC1492, Native Mi'kmaq from Canada, 1550-1700 AD.

the hair of many ancient Peruvian mummies is European rather than Amerindian not only in its color, but also in its structure

Not specifically European, but - generally - Caucasoid.

Ancient North Eurasians were Caucasoid and Amerindians are not pure Mongoloids, but a Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid population. Probably among some individuals and sub-populations those Caucasoid features were more pronounced.

Australoid and Polynesian admixtures were also undoubtedly present in Pre-Columbian America.

There is no doubt that Polynesians visited South America, traded and mixed with the locals.

Have you noticed any signals of Polynesian admixture in your South American samples?

 

[Tomenable]

Right, just pretend that Cieza de León didn't write the following about the Chachapoyas:

These Indians of Chachapoyas are the whitest and most attractive of any that I have seen (...)

Cieza de Leon was Spanish, right?

This guy is probably (?) 99% Spanish:

This is a 99% Native American person:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l12eckFp2tM

Question - who has whiter skin ???

============================

Peruvian ancestry by region according to Sandoval 2013 (Table 1. on page 5):

https://www.researchgate.net/public...als_a_major_legacy_of_pre-Columbian_ancestors

Population size by region: http://www.pqs.pe/sites/default/files/poblacion_peru_inei_0.png

According to Sandoval, Peruvians have some Oceanian (Polynesian) admixture.

I added it to Amerindian, because in my opinion all/most of it is Pre-Columbian:

% of Peru's population	region of Peru	Amerind* admixture	Europid admixture	African admixture	(sample size)
4,9%	Cajamarca	0,748	0,223	0,029	(67)
4,1%	Lambayeque	0,823	0,145	0,033	(31)
28,4%	Provincia Lima	0,833	0,143	0,023	(43)
2,7%	San Martin	0,895	0,087	0,018	(18)
2,2%	Ayacucho	0,897	0,081	0,022	(31)
1,6%	Uayli	0,906	0,08	0,014	(10)
4,4%	Junin	0,911	0,061	0,028	(29)
1,4%	Amazonas	0,922	0,054	0,024	(15)
4,1%	Arequipa	0,94	0,048	0,012	(71)
3,7%	Ancash	0,946	0,037	0,017	(11)
3,3%	Loreto	0,952	0,035	0,013	(79)
3,0%	Region Lima	0,968	0,02	0,012	(15)
4,2%	Cusco	0,97	0,019	0,008	(19)
1,5%	Apurimac	0,977	0,016	0,007	(9)
4,6%	Puno	0,981	0,011	0,008	(103)
74,1%	3/4 PERU average	0,881 (~88%)	0,098 (~10%)	0,020 (~2%)	(551)
6,0%	La Libertad				(0)
5,9%	Piura				(0)
3,2%	Callao				(0)
2,8%	Huánuco				(0)
2,5%	Ica				(0)
1,6%	Huancavelica				(0)
1,1%	Tacna				(0)
1,0%	Pasco				(0)
0,8%	Tumbes				(0)
0,6%	Moquegua				(0)
0,4%	Madre de Dios				(0)
100,0%	total PERU average	?	?	?	(551+)

*Oceanian and East Asian added to Amerindian.

==============================

And a map based on regional data posted above:

Regions of Peru:

http://theonlyperuguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Peru-Map-Regions1.jpg

Amerindian ancestry:

http://i.imgur.com/PAA1KQe.png

Peru is one of the most Amerindian countries. However, Bolivia is even more Amerindian.

I checked admixture averages for Bolivian reference populations in GEDmatch calculators:

1) HarappaWorld:

Bolivian - 90,5% Amerindian, 9% European, 0,5% African

2) MDLP K23b:

Quechua Bolivia - 99% Amerindian, 1% European, 0% African
Bolivian La Paz - 98% Amerindian, 2% European, 0% African
Bolivian Cochabamba - 93% Amerindian, 7% European, 0% African
Bolivian Pando - 91% Amerindian, 8,5% European, 0,5% African
Bolivian* - 88% Amerindian, 12% European, 0% African

[*where is this sample from, perhaps from several different locations?]

3) puntDNAL K10:

Bolivian1 - 97% Amerindian, 3% European, 0% African
Bolivian2 - 85% Amerindian 14% European, 1% African

[where are these two samples from, why is there such a big difference?]

 

[LeBrok]

Finally a Bronze Age Iberian uploaded to GEDmatch:

ATP9 (Middle Bronze Age Iberia, 1700-1518 BC).

GEDmatch kit number: M116706

Results in Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 44.39
2 West_Med 37.4
3 North_Sea 17.71
4 Baltic 0.49

Single Population Sharing:
==========================

In a PCA (based on Eurogenes K15 scores), ATP9 plots far away from modern Spanish guy:

http://i.imgur.com/zDUZ41R.png

Good job Tomenable.
I think he is still very like neolithic Iberian, just for some reason having more WHG than Copper Age guy. It might mean that IE didn't invade Spain yet, or they did but most of population didn't mix with newcomers yet. It takes a thousand of years and more to have well mixed society.

 

[Genetiker]

The Japanese, Koreans and Northern Chinese can also be called white based on their skin color.

Maybe the Chachapoyas had Mongoloid skin-lightening mutations, rather than Caucasoid ones.

Only a small percentage of the Mongoloid populations you mention have skin that could be described as white. Most of them have skin that ranges from yellow to brown.

And Amerindians don't have the Mongoloid depigmentation mutations. They arose in Asia long after Amerindians had branched off from the Asian Mongoloids.

And we know from the genetic analyses of the Gringuito descendants of the Chachapoyas that they have the European features they do because they have a significant amount of European admixture.

 

[Genetiker]

Genetiker, have you tested also MARC1492, or only samples from South America?

GEDmatch Z648313 = MARC1492, Native Mi'kmaq from Canada, 1550-1700 AD.

All 23 ancient American samples from the paper that included MARC1492 have appeared in all my admixture analyses for about a year and a half now.

Not specifically European, but - generally - Caucasoid.

Many European populations have hair that is considerably finer than the hair of Middle Eastern and North African Caucasoids, and some ancient Peruvian hair approaches the hair of those European populations in its fineness.

Ancient North Eurasians were Caucasoid and Amerindians are not pure Mongoloids, but a Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid population. Probably among some individuals and sub-populations those Caucasoid features were more pronounced.

You don't have to tell me that Amerindians are Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrids. You're talking to the first person to ever show using DNA that that's what they are. Who did so eight months before Willerslev took credit for "revealing" it. Who was attacked by Dienekes and regarded as a "kook" for saying so, at a time when everybody believed David Reich's preposterous claim that Northern Europeans are Mediterranean-Amerindian hybrids.

The fact that Amerindians have Caucasoid admixture is irrelevant to comparisons involving their hair, because it's the 370A EDAR mutation that causes Mongoloid hair structure, and that mutation is fixed or close to being fixed in all pure Amerindian populations. Amerindians have even higher frequencies of the EDAR mutation than most Asian Mongoloid populations do.

And, anyway, the point is that ancient Peruvian hair is structurally European compared not to Asian Mongoloid hair, but to multiple and diverse samples of Amerindian hair.

Australoid and Polynesian admixtures were also undoubtedly present in Pre-Columbian America.

So you have zero doubt that Australoids and Taiwanese-Melanesian hybrids crossed the Pacific, against the prevailing winds and currents, to reach the Americas, but the idea that Europeans crossed the Atlantic, aided by the prevailing winds and currents, is absurd to you. At least we now know where your prejudices lie.

There is no doubt that Polynesians visited South America, traded and mixed with the locals.

No, what really happened is that the White Gods of South America traveled out into the Pacific, aided by the prevailing winds and currents, to the islands of Polynesia, where they established civilization again.

Have you noticed any signals of Polynesian admixture in your South American samples?

Nothing that I would say rises to the level of signficance.

 

[Tomenable]

So you have zero doubt that Australoids and Taiwanese-Melanesian hybrids crossed the Pacific

Only Taiwanese-Melanesian hybrids did. Australoid-admixed people came much earlier, and they did not cross the Pacific.

This is how they came in my opinion (remember that the Ainu and the Aleuts have some of this Australoid admixture too):

http://oi68.tinypic.com/i2ovtj.jpg

The second wave were Polynesians, but they mostly admixed Andean tribes, not those deep inside Brazil like Karitiana:

http://i.imgur.com/okkSeZx.jpg

 

[Fire Haired14]

Ancient North Eurasians were Caucasoid and Amerindians are not pure Mongoloids, but a Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid population. Probably among some individuals and sub-populations those Caucasoid features were more pronounced.

If you're referring to Caucasoid skull features, Caucasoid hair doesn't have to always be on Caucasoid heads. How do we know ANE had Caucasoid skulls anyways? They had a very distant relationship with WHG, who we can definitely say had Caucasoid skulls, but that doesn't mean ANE did.

What is Caucasoid hair or Caucasoid phenotype anyways? You and I haven't seen many Middle Easterners. I don't know if they could fall under a very defining pan West Eurasian Caucasian phenotype. They share features with Europeans but maybe not much. What you're calling Caucasoid might only be European.

We don't fully understand the relationship between the four Holocene ancestors of Europeans. The defining features of Europeans can't come from only one of them. So, where did the European aka Caucasoid(?) look come from? We can't give a definite answer. All I'm saying is we have no idea what ANE looked like.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is just my opinion, I think race/genetic grouping usually doesn't determine much of our phenotype, beyond superficial things like skin color, hair, color, and hair texture. Our Facial features are determined by universal human variation, especially gender, more than anything else.

 

[Genetiker]

Cieza de Leon was Spanish, right?

This guy is probably (?) 99% Spanish:

An absurd cherry-picked example. You must have spent some time looking for the darkest Spaniard you could find. The vast majority of Spaniards aren't that dark.

This is a 99% Native American person:

Question - who has whiter skin ???

Anybody can look at a map of human skin color and see that, cherry-picked extreme outliers aside, Peruvian Indians are much darker than Spaniards:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PSM_V50_D780_Global_map_of_skin_color_distribution.jpg

 

[Fire Haired14]

Geneticker your quotes are interesting. Can you provide sources?

 

[berun]

@Genetiker, if a barely scientific statement of Thor Heyerdahl ("it seems to me") from the fifties is your best source to avoid other explanations as climatology, chemicals used in mummification, or other cases I lose interest very quick in such discussion, moreover when it's possible to find out "blondes" among Indonesian tribes...

And as I said above, a painting from the Inca period depicts Chachapoya women as having white skin and red hair.

there is a lot of decoloration in ancient pottery and statues, do you know, or not?

For the "European" gringuitos, can you prove that they have not received a recent Spanish admixture? or do you prefer to just don't look at it?

For the "Irish" aspect of Gringuitos... (what a scientific proof to deal?), you can look at those "Irish" kids from north Spain





So it seems that you get the best proofs for Europeans in pre-Columbine America and just dismiss the Occam's razor as inconvenient for your thinkings.

 

[Tomenable]

Genetiker,

Quality / coverage of Chachapoya genomes, listed from best to worst:

NA42, file size 17944 KB
NA40, file size 17155 KB
NA39, file size 5010 KB
NA41, file size 3335 KB
NA50, file size 2942 KB
NA47, file size 2542 KB
NA43, file size 1812 KB

Better quality samples have more of Amerindian ancestry in DNA.Land:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33150-Ancient-American-DNA?p=495524&viewfull=1#post495524

 

[Ricimer]

Could anybody upload the ATP9 sample in dna.land? My guess is 75% Southwestern Europe and 25% Sardinian

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

That's his HarappaWorld Admixture proportions. Yamnayans had just NE Euro and Baloch.

Population
S-Indian	-
Baloch	-
Caucasian	7.33
NE-Euro	36.77
SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-
American	-
Beringian	-
Mediterranean	55.74
SW-Asian	-
San	-
E-African	-
Pygmy	-
W-African	0.15

 

[LeBrok]

CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224	BA Iberian, ATP9, M116706			CO1 Hungary			BR1 Hungary			Unetice I0116, M425717
Population			Population			Population			Population			Population
S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-
Baloch	-		Baloch	-		Baloch	-		Baloch	3.15		Baloch	12.21
Caucasian	4.19		Caucasian	7.33		Caucasian	19.26		Caucasian	14.73		Caucasian	2.27
NE-Euro	24.19		NE-Euro	36.77		NE-Euro	16.74		NE-Euro	46.18		NE-Euro	58.33
SE-Asian	0.23		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	0.2		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	0.23		Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	0.18		Papuan	-
American	-		American	-		American	-		American	-		American	0.88
Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	63.33		Mediterranean	55.74		Mediterranean	55.37		Mediterranean	31.73		Mediterranean	26.25
SW-Asian	5.14		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	8.52		SW-Asian	3.33		SW-Asian	-
San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	0.07
W-African	2.69		W-African	0.15		W-African	0.1		W-African	0.48		W-African	-

I couldn't find Iberian Early Neolithic to check first farmers there.

Looks like source of BA Iberian change could have come from Hungarian Bronze age.
More explanation here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary/page6

 

[MOESAN]

Conclusion: the actual local population is autosomaly similar to ATP9, so no big population replacements after ATP9. The BB stay long there also.

It is not what I read on theis PCA: modern Spain is between North and ATP9; or I missed something in your statement? It's true this "map" lacks explanation for some plots...

 

[MOESAN]

https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/114125/N_GraecoLatina_13-2008-1_4.pdf

Good answer Sile - Fire Haired still makes sometimes weird statements (less than in past). (on archeolinguistic here)

 

[MOESAN]

. Our Facial features are determined by universal human variation, especially gender, more than anything else.

Wow! What an affirmation!

 

[Cato]

If ATP9 is the first ancient from Iberia with Steppe admixture, then it means that it took Indo-Europeans ca. 1500 years to get to Iberia from the Steppe. Assuming that they started expanding from the Steppe ca. 3500-3000 BC, and first groups came to Spain ca. 2000-1500 BC. Of course those groups did not enter Iberia directly from the Steppe, but from somewhere in the middle of Europe.

There was a reflux of BB into Iberia from the Rhine region at that time, maybe they were the R1b DF27 carriers ?, considering that the first DF27 was a BB man from Central Europe (Quedlinburg)

Los dos enterramientos en cista en Rincón de Soto (Rioja Baja), en proximidad geográfica y cronológica con el yacimiento de Urbiola, sería concordante
con la brusca floración de elementos braquicéfalos —campaniformes del Rhin, entre otros— que procedentes de países más septentrionales, solamente
logran modificar el sustrato racial original en áreas muy localizadas (RIQUET 1967). Estas oleadas, que probablemente se inician durante el Eneolítico,
adquieren su máxima intensidad con las invasiones célticas y germánicas (FUSTE 1965).

C. de la RUA, The studies of Paleoanthropology in the Basque Country, 1990

 

[Wilhelm2]

This ATP9 sample has 0% of Baltic component on Eurogenes K13, when modern Spaniards average 10%, this means there had to be a post-Bronz Age population movement that had at least 20% Baltic component.