Two "most Polish" Y-DNA subclades do not belong to R1a

Tomenable

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Location
Poland
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Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b-L617
mtDNA haplogroup
W6a
Peter Gwozdz has recently updated his table of Y-DNA sorted by value of PCI (Poland Concentration Index):

News

New topic 18 Oct 2016 Poland Concentration Table. A list of haplogroups most concentrated in Poland.

Interestingly, the two most specifically Polish subclades (highest PCI values = found much more often among Poles than among other populations) both do not belong to R1a, but one is a subclade of I1, and the other one a subclade of R1b.

The first place belongs to:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y6340/

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php...P-test-for-I1-P

I1a1-Y6340 (Y6349, "Vistula", "Polish Type"):

Frequency in Poland: 2,1% of the population
Poland Concentration Index value: 79-99%


The second place belongs to:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y6451/

http://www.clancrawfordnorthwest.org/R1b SNP 6-14-16.htm

R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1b4a-Z17913 (also Y6451):

Frequency in Poland: 0,4% of the population
Poland Concentration Index value: 68-100%


It is one of subclades belonging to branch R1b-U106.

Source:

http://www.gwozdz.org/polishclades.html
 
Interesting, both of them are Germanic haplogroups with a TMRCA of only 1500 years. So my guess is that these are the lineages of early Germanic settlers in Poland who did not migrate any further. As a result these deep clades may only be found in Poland now.
 
It is possible that they were descendants of East Germanic groups - Vandals and Goths who did not emigrate.
 
It is possible that they were descendants of East Germanic groups - Vandals and Goths who did not emigrate.
My first thought as well.
 
My Haplogroup is I1c (Terminal I-A9222 -formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 1900 ybp), mtDNA is H1bj. My father is Polish/Kashubian, and my mother is German and English descent.
 
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My Haplogroup is I1c (Terminal I-A9222 -formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 1900 ybp), mtDNA is H1jb. My father is Polish/Kashubian, and my mother is German and English descent.

As far as I can see I-A9222 is a subclade of I-Z17943 and this branch is represented in Poland:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17943/

I suppose that this subclade might indicate ancestry from people of the Iron Age Wielbark culture.

I know that one of ancient Wielbark samples was I1a3a1-Z60, so other I1 could also be present there. Your subclade could be of East Germanic or other Pre-Slavic origins, but still native to the area of Poland.

Would it be accurate to assume that Hg I1c is of southern Germanic origins?

More likely East Germanic, related to Goths and Vandals who lived in Poland before the Migration Period.

I don't seem to match with many other Pols... But I do with Nordic, UK, and German populations.

You need to remember about "Geographic Imbalances in FTDNA Database", the number of Western Europeans who test their DNA is much higher than the number of Eastern Europeans who test their DNA:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...Imbalances-in-FTDNA-Database-Some-Comparisons

Especially British people are overrepresented. Which is probably why all of my closest Y-DNA matches are Scottish.
 
Thank you. I was confused when I didn't see more Polish matches... and of course not belonging to Hg R1a. I can't seem to get the right information about "Polish/Kashubian ethnicity." Most people have told me that Kashubian people are not Polish, yet other people say they are Polish. That is me on Yfull tree. But I was born in Canada, not Poland. I was told to add Poland because it is known to me that my father's great-grandparents are from that part of Poland.
 
Thank you. I was confused when I didn't see more Polish matches... and of course not belonging to Hg R1a. I can't seem to get the right information about "Polish/Kashubian ethnicity." Most people have told me that Kashubian people are not Polish, yet other people say they are Polish. That is me on Yfull tree. But I was born in Canada, not Poland. I was told to add Poland because it is known to me that my father's great-grandparents are from that part of Poland.
All Kashubians that I met claimed they were Polish, as well as Kashubian dialect is considered Polish language family group, sort to speak.
Remember that Y haplogroup can only tell you about 2% of your DNA. Check what the autosomal part of your genome tells you.
 
Thank you. I was confused when I didn't see more Polish matches... and of course not belonging to Hg R1a. I can't seem to get the right information about "Polish/Kashubian ethnicity." Most people have told me that Kashubian people are not Polish, yet other people say they are Polish. That is me on Yfull tree.

Well, only 1/2 of Polish men belong to R1a. So you had a ~50% chance of not being R1a. I have a pretty rare subclade as well, it seems that no more than 0,1% - 0,3% of Polish men have my subclade of R1b.

Genetically Kashubians are like other Northern Poles, in terms of autosomal DNA.

As for Y-DNA, here are Y-DNA frequencies among Kashubians and neighbouring Kociewiaks:

Y-DNA haplogroup - Kashubians / Kociewiaks:

R1a ----- 170 (63.4%) ----- / ----- 89 (56.3%)
I1 ------- 35 (13.1%) ----- / ------ 13 (8.2%)
R1b ----- 24 (9.0%) ------- / ----- 28 (17.7%)
I2a ------ 8 (3.0%) ------- / ------- 9 (5.7%)
I2b ------ 3 (1.1%) ------- / ----- - 3 (1.9%)
E1b ------ 9 (3.4%) ------ / ------- 6 (3.8%)
J --------- 6 (2.2%) ------- / ------ 3 (1.9%)
G -------- 4 (1.5%) ------ / ------- 1 (0.6%)
N1c ------ 3 (1.1%) ------ / ------- 3 (1.9%)
Q1a ------ 2 (0.7%) ------ / ------- 0 (0.0%)
other ------ 4 (1.5%) ----- / ------- 3 (1.9%)

Total --- 268 (100%) --- / --- 158 (100%)

As you can see I1 is the 2nd most common haplogroup among Kashubians, after R1a.

Kociewiaks (native to the area between Kashubians and East Prussia) have more R1b:

Ka_Ko.png


But I was born in Canada, not Poland. I was told to add Poland because it is known to me that my father's great-grandparents are from that part of Poland.

I have some Polish-Canadian family in Vancouver, are you perhaps from BC as well?

Adding Canada would be pointless, unless your Y-DNA comes from First Nations.

All Kashubians that I met claimed they were Polish, as well as Kashubian dialect is considered Polish language family group, sort to speak.
I can't seem to get the right information about "Polish/Kashubian ethnicity." Most people have told me that Kashubian people are not Polish, yet other people say they are Polish.
Only Lutheran Kashubians often did not consider themselves Polish, but I think that genetically they are not different from Poles or from Catholic Kashubians (who consider themselves Polish).

As for Prussian/German censuses, until year 1861 all Kashubians were counted as "Poles", between 1861 and 1890 they were counted as "other Non-Germans" and between 1890 and WW1 they were counted as "Kashubians". After WW1 they were counted as "Poles" again, in Polish censuses.

In Medieval documents from the 1300s and 1400s Kashubians were called Poles.

It would be interesting to see Ludwig's autosomal DNA test results as well.

Ludwig are your Kashubian ancestors Lutheran or Catholic?
 
About Medieval sources in which Kashubians were not distinguished from other Poles:

http://www.studienstelleog.de/download/HG1.pdf

"(...) Dr. Lorentz mag alle Danziger Archive nach imaginären einheimischen Kaszuben durchstöbern lassen, das Ergebnis wird gleich Null sein; wohl aber lesen wir in Handfesten Ausdrücke wie: Dutsche oder Polene (1341, Lauenburg), Gerichtsbarkeit über die polnischen Einwohner (1356, Pasitz und Rosenberg), unser polensche Leute (1438, Roslasin). Der ostpommersche Adel hatte in Bütow und Lauenburg „polenisches“ Ritterrecht, die „polenschen“ Dörfer leisteten ihre polnischen Dienste usw. R. Cramer, den man gerade wegen seines Pseudokaszubismus[11] in den Mitteilungen so überschwenglich gepriesen hat, erwähnt diesen tiefgehenden kulturellen Einfluß des Polentums zur Ordenszeit mit keiner Silbe, das phantastische „Cassubentum“ - ein Anachronismus - macht die Lektüre seines Werkes geradezu ungenießbar. (...)"

Franz Tetzner 1899, "Die Slowinzen und Lebakaschuben: Land und Leute, Haus und Hof, Sitten und Gebräuche, Sprache und Litteratur im östlichen Hinterpommern":

https://archive.org/details/dieslowinzenund00unkngoog

Otto Knoop 1885, "Volkssagen, Erzählungen, Aberglauben, Gebräuche und Märchen aus dem östlichen Hinterpommern" wrote the following:

"(...) Da heisst es S. V: Wir in Hinterpommern nennen Kassuben nur die evangelischen Bewohner slawischer Abstammung in den Kreisen Stolp und Lauenburg; die katholischen Slawen im Bütower Kreise und in Westpreussen bezeichnen wir als Polacken, wie sie ja auch in der That das Recht verloren haben, sieh Kaschuben zu nennen. Sie sind im Laufe der Zeit dermassen polonisiert, dass sie sich von echten Polen kaum unterscheiden. (...)"
 
Thank you for all the insightful responses. My autosomalresults vary based on each group I have tested with over the year. In a nutshell my results look like this: NWEurope 51%, NE Europe 36%, Scandinavia 30%, Baltic 28%, etc. My father camefrom Wilno, On, Canada. The first and oldest Polish settlement in Canada.

 
Thank you for all the insightful responses. My autosomalresults vary based on each group I have tested with over the year. In a nutshell my results look like this: NWEurope 51%, NE Europe 36%, Scandinavia 30%, Baltic 28%, etc. My father came from Wilno, On, Canada. The first and oldest Polish settlement in Canada.

Are you on GEDmatch?

If so give me your Eurogenes K36 results, and I will do some "ancestry predictions" for you.

=====================

As for my results (apart from GEDmatch) they look like this:

FTDNA MyOrigins 1.0.:

- 75% Eastern European
- 25% West-Central Europe

MyHeritageDNA:

- 72.8% East European
- 23.8% North-West Europe
- 3.4% Balkan

DNA.Land:

- 55% North Slavic
- 36% Northwest Europe
- 8.2% Balkan
- 1.3% South/Central Europe

GenePlaza:

- 58% North Slavic
- 29% Northwest Europe
- 6.2% Southwest Europe
- 5% Mediterranean
- 1.4% Ambiguous

And here something based on Eurogenes K36 GEDmatch results:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-rates-on-maps?p=510235&viewfull=1#post510235
 
Ok. Thank you. Population My Eurogenes K36 Results

Amerindian-
Arabian-
Armenian-
Basque-
Central_African-
Central_Euro
East_African-
East_Asian-
East_Balkan
East_Central_Asian-
East_Central_Euro
East_Med-
Eastern_Euro
Fennoscandian
French
Iberian
Indo-Chinese-
Italian
Malayan-
Near_Eastern-
North_African-
North_Atlantic
North_Caucasian
North_Sea
Northeast_African-
Oceanian
Omotic-
Pygmy-
Siberian-
South_Asian-
South_Central_Asian-
South_Chinese-
Volga-Ural
West_African-
West_Caucasian-
West_Med

10.15
1.10
12.29
7.78
12.04
6.90
10.18
6.53
14.57
3.89
13.67
0.10
0.72
 
Population
Amerindian-
Arabian
-
Armenian-
Basque-
Central_African-
Central_Euro
East_African-
East_Asian
-
East_Balkan
East_Central_Asian-
East_Central_Euro
East_Med-
Eastern_Euro
Fennoscandian
French
Iberian
Indo-Chinese-
Italian
Malayan-
Near_Eastern
-
North_African-
North_Atlantic
North_Caucasian
North_Sea
Northeast_African-
Oceanian
Omotic-
Pygmy-
Siberian-
South_Asian-
South_Central_Asian-
South_Chinese
-
Volga-Ural
West_African-
West_Caucasian-
West_Med

10.15
1.10
12.29
7.78
12.04
6.90
10.18
6.53
14.57
3.89
13.67
0.10
0.72
 
I don't know what is happening on this page but I can't use it without problems. Typing is very difficult... my post aren't showing up when I click "post quick reply."
 
The spam filter doesn't like you, I guess. It sent your posts for moderation. They should show now.
 
Moderation? I am just trying to share my information with you all and learn about my background. I posted my Eurogenes K36 results so I hope they aren't considered "spam."
 
Now my results are without the % values... Is there another way I can get my results on here?
 
Central_Euro 10.15
East_Balkan 1.10
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 12.29
Eastern_Euro 7.78
Fennoscandian 12.04
French 6.90
Iberian 10.18
Italian 6.53
North_Atlantic 14.57
North_Caucasian 3.89
North_Sea 13.67
Oceanian 0.10
Volga-Ural 0.72

 
Central Europe 10.15%, East Balkan 1.10%, East Central Europe 12.29%, Eastern Europe 7.78%, Fennoscandia 12.04%, France 6.90%, Iberian 10.18%, Italian 6.53%, North Atlantic 14.54%, North Caucasian 3.89%, North Sea 13.67%, Oceanian 0.10%, Volga-Ural 0.72%
 

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