What is happening in Poland?

[Angela]

Picture is clearer when we don't dwell too long on what socialist versus "capitalist" policies are, traditional right and left. It is much more understandable through natural conservative and liberal spectrum. You see, the overblown social services existed for decades in east european countries. People got used to them a lot. Conservatives (around the globe) in general tend to stick to what already exists, what they grew up in. In this case in Poland they grew up in environment rich in generous social services and entitlements. Of course financial benefiting from these services strengthens validity of old system. These people will vote for anyone who promises to keep and protect their social service, jobs, religion, stronger nation, pure race, and the rest of status quo. Not much different from what Trump is promising his army of hyper conservative folks. People want to protect what they have or used to have, the full protectionism of the jobs, tariffs on imports, whiteness of small towns and villages, christian/traditional values, etc. It is also not much different what Putin promises to the Russians, and he has a huge following. Protect russians and make Russia great again. Which being conservative side in Russia, includes social services network, lack of capitalist style production and lack of democracy.
From these protective and over emphasised greatness we can only expect the clash of the titans.
It is interesting that natural conservatives desire more state protection that natural liberals. Natural conservatives always feel endangered and feel a need to be protected.

You're generalizing way too much, LeBork. I don't believe some sort of natural conservatism explains what we're seeing in Poland. That lets these people off the hook in my opinion. There are a lot of American "conservatives" who would never countenance, much less propose legislation like this.

I think I'm probably more on the traditional end of the spectrum than you are, but the "past" which I prefer is the "past" of the U.S. Constitution, of traditional European "liberalism", of secular humanism. It was Fascism and its more racist version, Nazism, which was one of the new ideas of the 20th century, along with Communism. The new art, architecture, etc. with which it was associated was fittingly enough called "Futurism". Democracy and the Europe of the Enlightenment was the "past", the purview of the intellectuals and humanists whom both the fascists and the communists wanted to destroy.

Inhumanity to people who are of a different race, or religion, or sexual orientation is a turn to the past only in the sense that perhaps it's to some extent ingrained in human beings, although more so in some than in others.

 

[Yetos]

Perhaps Communist party in Greece is the conservative party?

they are in a way, in their minds the world did not change 150 years now.
they 'live' at the times of industrial revolution,
they are 6-7 % 50 years now,

 

[bicicleur 2]

they are in a way, in their minds the world did not change 150 years now.
they 'live' at the times of industrial revolution,
they are 6-7 % 50 years now,

aren't there also people in Greece who call themselves 'anarchists' ?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Picture is clearer when we don't dwell too long on what socialist versus "capitalist" policies are, traditional right and left. It is much more understandable through natural conservative and liberal spectrum. You see, the overblown social services existed for decades in east european countries. People got used to them a lot. Conservatives (around the globe) in general tend to stick to what already exists, what they grew up in. In this case in Poland they grew up in environment rich in generous social services and entitlements. Of course financial benefiting from these services strengthens validity of old system. These people will vote for anyone who promises to keep and protect their social service, jobs, religion, stronger nation, pure race, and the rest of status quo. Not much different from what Trump is promising his army of hyper conservative folks. People want to protect what they have or used to have, the full protectionism of the jobs, tariffs on imports, whiteness of small towns and villages, christian/traditional values, etc. It is also not much different what Putin promises to the Russians, and he has a huge following. Protect russians and make Russia great again. Which being conservative side in Russia, includes social services network, lack of capitalist style production and lack of democracy.
From these protective and over emphasised greatness we can only expect the clash of the titans.
It is interesting that natural conservatives desire more state protection that natural liberals. Natural conservatives always feel endangered and feel a need to be protected.

the Sovjet Union went bankrupt and afaik most Poles hated communism when the iron cutain fell
I have been in Poland a few times in the late 1990's and I saw the optimism and the progress they made
I think most Poles are well aware that generous social services are a fairy tale
I think many Poles want to make it on their own and not depend on any body else

I think they see the policy of Merkel and of the EU of the last few year as a threat for their lifestyle

 

[Tomenable]

The article posted in the OP is exaggerating things, but I can indeed notice some worrying symptoms. Too much power (a one-party government) fuddled the brains of members of Law & Justice. They have turned public Television into their propaganda tube (I don't like watching news there anymore, because it is annoying how biased and one-sided they became), and silenced the Constitutional Court. But private TV Channels are mostly anti-government, and nobody is preventing their freedom of speech.

I don't think that Polish democracy is endangered or eroding, but I don't like some of recent developments.

That said, there are also several positive things about this government when compared with Civic Platform.

 

[LeBrok]

they are in a way, in their minds the world did not change 150 years now.
they 'live' at the times of industrial revolution,
they are 6-7 % 50 years now,

See this is what I meant, that even communists can be natural conservatives, and communist party can have a conservative position, is unable to change.

 

[LeBrok]

the Sovjet Union went bankrupt and afaik most Poles hated communism when the iron cutain fell
I have been in Poland a few times in the late 1990's and I saw the optimism and the progress they made
I think most Poles are well aware that generous social services are a fairy tale
I think many Poles want to make it on their own and not depend on any body else

I think they see the policy of Merkel and of the EU of the last few year as a threat for their lifestyle

The threat was there from the beginning. Due to this "natural conservatism" reformists were unable to get rid of overblown social services, which is too much drag on polish economy. This systemic problem exists from beginning of the reforms. Also, there was always this conservative fear of opening economy for foreign investments, which would help speed up the catching up to the West. People are afraid that Germans and Chinese will buy Poland, and Poland will lose its Polish "character". There is a constant fear that they will lose Poland to foreign "invasions" of many sorts.

 

[LeBrok]

The article posted in the OP is exaggerating things, but I can indeed notice some worrying symptoms. Too much power (a one-party government) fuddled the brains of members of Law & Justice. They have turned public Television into their propaganda tube (I don't like watching news there anymore, because it is annoying how biased and one-sided they became), and silenced the Constitutional Court. But private TV Channels are mostly anti-government, and nobody is preventing their freedom of speech.

I don't think that Polish democracy is endangered or eroding, but I don't like some of recent developments.

That said, there are also several positive things about this government when compared with Civic Platform.

I'm proud of you.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The threat was there from the beginning. Due to this "natural conservatism" reformists were unable to get rid of overblown social services, which is too much drag on polish economy. This systemic problem exists from beginning of the reforms. Also, there was always this conservative fear of opening economy for foreign investments, which would help speed up the catching up to the West. People are afraid that Germans and Chinese will buy Poland, and Poland will lose its Polish "character". There is a constant fear that they will lose Poland to foreign "invasions" of many sorts.

It seems like I underestimated something here, the fear of the Poles to be dominated again.
As for overblown social services, you shoud see what Walloon socialists did in Belgium, paralysing Walloon economy. Or look at Greece which is left completely paralised and with bankrupt social services. I don't think it is that bad in Poland.
I think if the Poles can keep their head cool, Poland is going to make it.
Considering that East Germans could convert their Ostmarks into solid D-Marks and Poland didn't get that kind of aid, I think Poland made good progress on their own.

 

[Yetos]

aren't there also people in Greece who call themselves 'anarchists' ?

hahaha

ok except military and policemen
everybody,

Anarchists is a different story,
even I can be one, according subject,
yes but as always and everywhere they are divided since they have not an αρχη,
there are villages and town squares that have their style,
Anarchism is big subject,
it can be from Pierre Proudhon theory, to Piotr Kropotkin
but even Oliver Cromwell could be considered as anarchist at his times.
there are many kinds of anarchists, most of them are punks or hooligans etc, although some are educated and their own anarchy style,
Even Barchelona's system was named anarchy, but was it really?

 

[Yetos]

See this is what I meant, that even communists can be natural conservatives, and communist party can have a conservative position, is unable to change.

as I see you did not read my post #19
cause I feel that you agree with me.

 

[Yetos]

The threat was there from the beginning. Due to this "natural conservatism" reformists were unable to get rid of overblown social services, which is too much drag on polish economy. This systemic problem exists from beginning of the reforms. Also, there was always this conservative fear of opening economy for foreign investments, which would help speed up the catching up to the West. People are afraid that Germans and Chinese will buy Poland, and Poland will lose its Polish "character". There is a constant fear that they will lose Poland to foreign "invasions" of many sorts.

if that is happening, then I am a Polish from today,
but from the Polish people I know and first met at 1980's
they were very confused, and fear confused them more,
fear and vanity,
but that generation is gone,
today Poland has 2nd generation from 1980's.

I have an open invitation for Krakowy as long as the couple lives,
and a far cousin of mine is married with Polish,
and many Poles that came in Greece at 80's-90's are returning to Poland,
Poland manage to have a nostos (νοστος) a return back of her kids that left at 90's

 

[Tomenable]

Afro-American vlogger commenting on the famous "battle of Prince Kebab" (31.12.2016 - 01.01.2017):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGXCEjHV4T4

http://gatesofvienna.net/2017/01/kebab-riots-in-poland/