Greek Y-DNA in Italians

[Maciamo]

This is the Cruciani graphic for: Fig. 5.—Mean variance spatial distribution of the Y-chromosomehaplogroup E-V13 after pooling data from locations with ,3 observations(see Subjects and Methods).

Amazing how thoroughly it contradicts more recent SNP-based data.

 

[Maciamo]

For R1a I do not know enough to give back a detailed response, I do know a little bit about R-Z93, my impression that this is a Middle Eastern and Iranian line, It is found in high numbers in Iranians and Levites.

You can look at my R1a-Z93 map. There is hardly any of it in Greece or Italy.

Greek and Italian R1a is almost exclusively CTS1211, just like in the south of France, in northern Spain and Anatolia. I have argued for several years that this R1a was brought by the Goths, who first invaded the Balkans and Anatolia in the 3rd century, then conquered Italy, Southwest France and Iberia. The Goths were a hybrid of Germanic and pre-Slavic Central-East European stock. In other words, it isn't the Greeks who brought R1a to Italy.

 

[Azzurro]

You can look at my R1a-Z93 map. There is hardly any of it in Greece or Italy.

Greek and Italian R1a is almost exclusively CTS1211, just like in the south of France, in northern Spain and Anatolia. I have argued for several years that this R1a was brought by the Goths, who first invaded the Balkans and Anatolia in the 3rd century, then conquered Italy, Southwest France and Iberia. The Goths were a hybrid of Germanic and pre-Slavic Central-East European stock. In other words, it isn't the Greeks who brought R1a to Italy.

Thanks for the information, I did not think so as well, the Goth explanation makes the most sense. Could it have been a minor lineage amongst the Lombards as well?

 

[Hauteville]

Italian R1a is imo mostly due to Goths, Vandals, Longobards, Normans, Swabians, it has not to do with Greek colonization imo. Z93 is almost inexistent in Italy and in Greece has few presence only in Crete and other islands but with a low percentage.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Greek and Italian R1a is almost exclusively CTS1211, just like in the south of France, in northern Spain and Anatolia. I have argued for several years that this R1a was brought by the Goths, who first invaded the Balkans and Anatolia in the 3rd century, then conquered Italy, Southwest France and Iberia. The Goths were a hybrid of Germanic and pre-Slavic Central-East European stock. In other words, it isn't the Greeks who brought R1a to Italy.

Although I agree with the conclusion, if it existed in Moesia before the 4th century AD, then it would have been Thracian or something too. And if Thracians had it, Macedonians could have acquired it through admixture with them.
On the other hand, if it appears significantly later than the settlement of Goths in Moesia, Thrace etc even Bulgars could have brought it.

 

[DuPidh]

You can look at my R1a-Z93 map. There is hardly any of it in Greece or Italy.

Greek and Italian R1a is almost exclusively CTS1211, just like in the south of France, in northern Spain and Anatolia. I have argued for several years that this R1a was brought by the Goths, who first invaded the Balkans and Anatolia in the 3rd century, then conquered Italy, Southwest France and Iberia. The Goths were a hybrid of Germanic and pre-Slavic Central-East European stock. In other words, it isn't the Greeks who brought R1a to Italy.

Nice map! It shows that Kurdish R1a is of Afgan origin. There was someone claiming that Kurds have Balkan roots

 

[Fire Haired14]

How do these ancient samples from the Middle East fit into this picture?

(These are all from the Lazaridis paper.)

I0861 E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b) Israel_Natufian I1069
I1072 E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b)

There's a lot of other "E" as well.

See:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v536/n7617/extref/nature19310-s4.pdf

According to Geneticker 4/5 of Natufian/Levant Neo E1b tested for E1b1b1b and E1b1b1a are E1b1b1b(prob. M123) and one is E1b1b1a1-M78. 3/3 of Neolithic European is E1b1b1a1-M78.

 

[Yetos]

You can look at my R1a-Z93 map.

ok this map open my apettite,

Maciamo. I have a feeling that is connected either with Scythians
the case the Makedonians described as Σκυδρα the Persian Satrapy at Europe

or with Cimmerians, Κιμμεριοι,

both possible for me,

is it possible?

 

[Maciamo]

Nice map! It shows that Kurdish R1a is of Afgan origin. There was someone claiming that Kurds have Balkan roots

No, it's not of Afghan origin, but of Central Asian origin, as the Kurds descend the Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93 people descended from the Andronovo culture and later Scythian cultures in Central Asia. In the early Middle Ages, Turkic people from around Mongolia invaded and assimilated these people in most of Central Asia and continued all the way to Anatolia, which became Turkey. The Kurds are an Iranian tribe that were already living (mostly as nomads) in region that is now Kurdistan during the Byzantine period, and they continued to do so during the Ottoman periods. Part of the R1a-Z93 in Kurdistan came with older Proto-Iranian migrations during the Bronze Age, notably with the Mitanni, and later in the Iron Age with the Medes and Persians. I explained it all on the R1a page.

ok this map open my apettite,

Maciamo. I have a feeling that is connected either with Scythians
the case the Makedonians described as Σκυδρα the Persian Satrapy at Europe

or with Cimmerians, Κιμμεριοι,

both possible for me,

is it possible?

See the above explanation.

 

[Maciamo]

Although I agree with the conclusion, if it existed in Moesia before the 4th century AD, then it would have been Thracian or something too. And if Thracians had it, Macedonians could have acquired it through admixture with them.
On the other hand, if it appears significantly later than the settlement of Goths in Moesia, Thrace etc even Bulgars could have brought it.

It's possible but there is a great diversity of R1a1a subclades in Bulgaria, so there is no way to be sure at present to which branch the Thracians belonged.

 

[Maciamo]

Italian R1a is imo mostly due to Goths, Vandals, Longobards, Normans, Swabians, it has not to do with Greek colonization imo. Z93 is almost inexistent in Italy and in Greece has few presence only in Crete and other islands but with a low percentage.

Most Germanic R1a would be Z283 (mostly Norwegian and Swedish, so possibly found among the Normans and Vandals) and L664 (West Germanic). The Swabians probably didn't have much R1a considering that modern Swabia has the lowest percentage of R1a (>5%) of any German region. The related who Suebi also settled in Galicia and northern Portugal, a region that has very little R1a (much less than Castille & Leon, Asturias or Cantabria), despite Galicia having the highest percentage of I1 in Iberia. Considering that most of the R1a in Italy is CTS1211, it is not of Germanic but of (pre-)Proto-Slavic origin, and therefore could only have been brought by the Goths.

 

[Azzurro]

Another Y subclade that may have been intoduced by the Greeks to Italians is
J-A457, it is found in both groups, this is if course based off ftdna group projects, however it is important to note that it is found in both Italians and Greeks.

 

[rafc]

But as far as E-V13 is concerned, there is absolutely no evidence that it is native to Greece or the Balkans. In fact, I have made a new phylogenetic tree of E-V13 a few days ago and the variety found in the Balkans fall within the S2979 branch, which has no less than 8 sister clades at the same level. The other branches are found mainly in northeast, central and northwest Europe. All of the branches at that level date from approximately 4000 years ago, when the Bronze Age was spreading from central Europe to western and northern Europe. This was before the Mycenaeans arrived in Greece and the Italics reached Italy. E-V13 itself has a TMRCA of 5400 ybp according to Yfull. That's when the Steppe PIE started invading the Balkans.

I therefore have to reconsider the history of E-V13. Seven years ago everybody thought it came with Neolithic farmers from the Levant. One E-V13 was found in Neolithic Catalonia but nowhere else. That's when I proposed that E-V13 was actually native to southern Europe, a descendant of a group of E-M78 that had crossed directly from North Africa to Spain or southern Italy. This might still be correct as E-V13 was indeed present in southern Europe but was apparently not part of any Near Eastern or Balkanic Neolithic cultures. What differs now is that E-V13 wouldn't have spread all over southern Europe during the Mesolithic and Neolithic, but only during the Bronze Age. The only way they could have done that was by 'hitchhiking' their way with the Indo-European migrations. The reason why E-V13 became so much more common in the Balkans than elsewhere would just be by chance, either genetic drift or a founder effect in some dominant and particularly prolific paternal lineage.

Unfortunately I have very little information about the deep E-V13 subclades in Italy itself, but in all logic there should be more variety in the north as V13 would have come from central Europe with the Italics and even later with various people assimilated by the Goths in central and southeast Europe before they reached Italy. In the south, E-V13 should indeed be the same variety as in Greece.

Interesting view. I can add that the last months have given a lot of new information about V13, without necessarily clarifying the picture. We discovered that a number of tribes in Northern Albania and Kosovo are S2979+, but negative for it's two main subclades. Furthermore we discovered that the largest Serbian tribe in Montenegro is V13* . We also finally had NGS results for multiple V13*'s which refined the structure between V13 and CTS5856. This showed a Macedonian was V13* (next to an Irish and a Swiss and a previously known Scot). I argued a few months ago for a central European origin/expansion of V13 and CTS5856, and I still think the distribution of certain subclades supports this. But I can't deny that the probability of V13 and CTS5856 expanding in the Southern Balkan is far higher after these recent developments.

 

[DNZ]

Maciamo and Yetos,Your theories are more explanatory for me.I thought to the same way.

 

[Azzurro]

@Maciamo, I think I found good evidence for two clades and the Greek dispersion amongst Italians, I did this by looking at some projects at Ftdna and looking at some historical maps, J2a-SK1336 which is under the downstream of J-Z467, it is found or peaks near areas where Ionic Greeks settled, it is found in the northern coast of Sicily and one in Catania near Taormina (which is in Messina), also two in Basilicata which could be explained by Heraclea and Siris, there is also one Calabria and one in Frosinone which do not fit the category but 5 of the 7 found in Italy are in or around Ionian areas. The other is G-M406 as Yetos mentioned it peaks in Calabria in ancient Achaean speakers, also one is found in Salerno, and a couple in Sicily, could have been a major clade in Ancient Greece, I don't know it's frequency in modern Greece. These are two really good candidates.

 

[Maciamo]

@Maciamo, I think I found good evidence for two clades and the Greek dispersion amongst Italians, I did this by looking at some projects at Ftdna and looking at some historical maps, J2a-SK1336 which is under the downstream of J-Z467, it is found or peaks near areas where Ionic Greeks settled, it is found in the northern coast of Sicily and one in Catania near Taormina (which is in Messina), also two in Basilicata which could be explained by Heraclea and Siris, there is also one Calabria and one in Frosinone which do not fit the category but 5 of the 7 found in Italy are in or around Ionian areas. The other is G-M406 as Yetos mentioned it peaks in Calabria in ancient Achaean speakers, also one is found in Salerno, and a couple in Sicily, could have been a major clade in Ancient Greece, I don't know it's frequency in modern Greece. These are two really good candidates.

G-M406 was found among Early Neolithic farmers and almost certainly spread to Italy and most of Europe during the Neolithic. In fact there is much more G2a in Central and South Italy than in Greece today, and most of it is found in mountain areas that were not colonised by the Greeks.

Not sure about J2a-SK1336, but that branch is at least 6000 years old, so if some came specifically with the Greeks to Italy it must be a deeper subclade.

 

[Azzurro]

G-M406 was found among Early Neolithic farmers and almost certainly spread to Italy and most of Europe during the Neolithic. In fact there is much more G2a in Central and South Italy than in Greece today, and most of it is found in mountain areas that were not colonised by the Greeks.

Not sure about J2a-SK1336, but that branch is at least 6000 years old, so if some came specifically with the Greeks to Italy it must be a deeper subclade.

Thanks for the information on G-M406, so it is neolithic in nature.

Most likely for the J2a-SK1336, there needs to be more BigY testing for that clade, I just find it a good candidate because of where it's found there must a deeper clade you said, it could potentially be an Ionian Greek signature marker.

 

[Atlantische]

G-M406 was found among Early Neolithic farmers and almost certainly spread to Italy and most of Europe during the Neolithic. In fact there is much more G2a in Central and South Italy than in Greece today, and most of it is found in mountain areas that were not colonised by the Greeks.

M406 is not European Neolithic haplogroup. First, because of it's time of origin, and second because of it's geographic distribution. M406 probably entered Europe and it's spreaded by ancient Greek colonies. Second, biggest % of M406 are there:

Dagestani 18,5

Israeli Druze 8,1%

Greeks from Smirna/Izmir in Turkey 3,4%

Greeks from Fokeja in Turkey 3,2%

Sicily 2,6%

Western Turkey 2,5%

Central Turkey 2,4%

Eastern Turkey 2,4%

Italy 2,4%

Non-Askhenazi Jews 2,3%

Armenians 2,1%

Azerbeijani in Iran 2,0%

 

[Maciamo]

M406 is not European Neolithic haplogroup. First, because of it's time of origin, and second because of it's geographic distribution. M406 probably entered Europe and it's spreaded by ancient Greek colonies. Second, biggest % of M406 are there:

Dagestani 18,5

Israeli Druze 8,1%

Greeks from Smirna/Izmir in Turkey 3,4%

Greeks from Fokeja in Turkey 3,2%

Sicily 2,6%

Western Turkey 2,5%

Central Turkey 2,4%

Eastern Turkey 2,4%

Italy 2,4%

Non-Askhenazi Jews 2,3%

Armenians 2,1%

Azerbeijani in Iran 2,0%

G2a-M406 arose some 14,500 years ago, so it's old enough to have been a major Near Eastern lineage by the diffusion of the Neolithic to Europe, and it was found among Neolithic samples. Even its TMRCA is 8600 years, which still places it in the Early Neolithic in Europe.

 

[Atlantische]

G2a-M406 arose some 14,500 years ago, so it's old enough to have been a major Near Eastern lineage by the diffusion of the Neolithic to Europe, and it was found among Neolithic samples. Even its TMRCA is 8600 years, which still places it in the Early Neolithic in Europe.

Problem with M406 and generally all aDNA G2a samples in Europe are because there is not tested sample under the G2a2 L30.
Also, M406 has a too low frequence in Europe. It's highest in Greece, Sicily and western Turkey, what means that M406 pass as a candidate for Greek colonization of Europe.
And after all, best candidate for spreading Neolithic farming arround Europe are branches under G2a2b2a1, or to be precise it's main subclade and generally main G2a subclade in Europe - L497.