J2-M172 in India as Neolithic marker?

Angela

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"Dissecting the influence of Neolithic demic diffusion on Indian Y-chromosome pool through J2-M172 haplogroup"
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep19157

"The global distribution of J2-M172 sub-haplogroups has been associated with Neolithic demic diffusion. Two branches of J2-M172, J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 make a considerable part of Y chromosome gene pool of the Indian subcontinent. We investigated the Neolithic contribution of demic dispersal from West to Indian paternal lineages, which majorly consists of haplogroups of Late Pleistocene ancestry. To accomplish this, we have analysed 3023 Y-chromosomes from different ethnic populations, of which 355 belonged to J2-M172. Comparison of our data with worldwide data, including Y-STRs of 1157 individuals and haplogroup frequencies of 6966 individuals, suggested a complex scenario that cannot be explained by a single wave of agricultural expansion from Near East to South Asia. Contrary to the widely accepted elite dominance model, we found a substantial presence of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 haplogroups in both caste and tribal populations of India. Unlike demic spread in Eurasia, our results advocate a unique, complex and ancient arrival of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 haplogroups into Indian subcontinent."

"
J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 in the subcontinent may reflect any combination of unknown and known movements. Though, the genealogical ages for Indian J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 are correlating with appearance of agriculture in Indus Valley (~6KYA) and Mehrgarh (~9KYA) and falling well within the Neolithic range, differential presence and distribution of J2-M172 sublineages and other associated HGs depict a complex picture. Most likely events responsible for the current distribution of J2-M172 sublineages into Indian subcontinent could be any combination of 1) entry of herders from West and Central Asia/Middle East during late glacial maximum (LGM) of Holocene, 2) Neolithic demic diffusion from the West, and 3) Bronze and Iron age migration/admixtures."

"
ConclusionAbsence or negligible presence of classical markers of Eurasian demic diffusion in India advocates against it to be the sole explanation of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 distribution in the subcontinent. High variance, haplotype diversity with no sharing haplotype, geographically pronounced phylogeny and seemingly autochthonous origin of sublineage J2a-M68, suggest towards the antiquity of the HGs. Dispersal of J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 from Near East to NW region and further eastwards of the subcontinent seems to have unique and complex history of various known and unknown possible events. Regardless of the complexity of dispersal, NW region appears to be the corridor for entry of these haplogroups into India. Remarkable presence of J2a-M410 among tribal groups inhabited in remote geographical regions strongly dismisses the earlier belief of it to be caste-specific."

More endless speculating based on modern distributions. Are we ever going to get any ancient dna?
 
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Yes, we urgently need autosomal from India, especially Indus Valley. If J2a and b is so well dispersed, I would guess that this is Neolithic first farmer from Iran.

1) entry of herders from West and Central Asia/Middle East during late glacial maximum (LGM) of Holocene,
Really? Domesticated animals 20KYA?

Someone please remind us what J2 was found in Iran or Levant in Neolithic?
 
I checked Harappa admixture table. All modern NW India has similar Baloch to Caucasian admixtures as Neolithic Iranian Farmer, 5 to 2 respectively. Modern Iran is different more Caucasian than Baloch.
Places rich in South Indian admixture has low Baloch.
 
Yes, we urgently need autosomal from India, especially Indus Valley. If J2a and b is so well dispersed, I would guess that this is Neolithic first farmer from Iran.

Really? Domesticated animals 20KYA?

Someone please remind us what J2 was found in Iran or Levant in Neolithic?

This is from the Lazaridis et al 2016 paper on the Near Eastern farmers:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

"Iran_MesolithicI1293: J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)This individual belonged to haplogroup J, supported by mutations PF4519, FGC3271,PF4530, CTS5934, F2839, PF4619. It was found to be ancestral for L227 (J2a1b3) and Z639(J2b2a1a1) and could be designated as J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)."

(Additional analysis has called it as [J2a-CTS1085]"

"Iran_ChL (Chalcolithic Iran)I1662: J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)This individual was derived for mutations PF4505, CTS1250, PF4513, F1181, PF4519,PF4530, L60, F1744, CTS2769, F2116, CTS5628, CTS7229, PF4567, PF4572, F2746,F2769, CTS8974, CTS9877, CTS10446, F3119, PF4591, F3176, PF4594, FGC1599, L778,CTS11571, CTS11750 placing it in haplogroup J. It was ancestral for haplogroups J1a(CTS5368), J2a1 (L26), and J2b (M314). Thus, it is placed in haplogroup J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)"

(This has been called by Genetiker as J2a-PF5008(xL581)"

In Broushaki et al, the authors didn't assign any samples to J, but Genetiker, looking at the data, supposedly says there is a J2b-M12*.

Somebody correct the record if this is incorrect.
 
This is from the Lazaridis et al 2016 paper on the Near Eastern farmers:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

"Iran_MesolithicI1293: J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)This individual belonged to haplogroup J, supported by mutations PF4519, FGC3271,PF4530, CTS5934, F2839, PF4619. It was found to be ancestral for L227 (J2a1b3) and Z639(J2b2a1a1) and could be designated as J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)."

(Additional analysis has called it as [J2a-CTS1085]"

"Iran_ChL (Chalcolithic Iran)I1662: J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)This individual was derived for mutations PF4505, CTS1250, PF4513, F1181, PF4519,PF4530, L60, F1744, CTS2769, F2116, CTS5628, CTS7229, PF4567, PF4572, F2746,F2769, CTS8974, CTS9877, CTS10446, F3119, PF4591, F3176, PF4594, FGC1599, L778,CTS11571, CTS11750 placing it in haplogroup J. It was ancestral for haplogroups J1a(CTS5368), J2a1 (L26), and J2b (M314). Thus, it is placed in haplogroup J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)"

(This has been called by Genetiker as J2a-PF5008(xL581)"

In Broushaki et al, the authors didn't assign any samples to J, but Genetiker, looking at the data, supposedly says there is a J2b-M12*.

Somebody correct the record if this is incorrect.
Right on. More signs of Iran Neolithic moving into India. These authors should familiarize themselves with other people research. They could have come with more insides and refined explanations. They act like ancient population genetics doesn't exist.
 
mehrgharh ca 9 ka in Baluchistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh
birhana ca 9.5 ka on the border between the Punjab, the Ganges plain and the Thar desert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhirrana
these were sedentary farmers
around the same time nomadic herders may have arrived
they domesticated the zebu, the humped cow

apart from J2 see also the distribution of R2 who was signaled in Ganj Dareh, the Zagros neolithic ca 9.7 ka
 
"Iran_ChL (Chalcolithic Iran)I1662: J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)This individual was derived for mutations PF4505, CTS1250, PF4513, F1181, PF4519,PF4530, L60, F1744, CTS2769, F2116, CTS5628, CTS7229, PF4567, PF4572, F2746,F2769, CTS8974, CTS9877, CTS10446, F3119, PF4591, F3176, PF4594, FGC1599, L778,CTS11571, CTS11750 placing it in haplogroup J. It was ancestral for haplogroups J1a(CTS5368), J2a1 (L26), and J2b (M314). Thus, it is placed in haplogroup J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)"

(This has been called by Genetiker as J2a-PF5008(xL581)"

In Broushaki et al, the authors didn't assign any samples to J, but Genetiker, looking at the data, supposedly says there is a J2b-M12*.

Somebody correct the record if this is incorrect.

Iran chalcolithic and Genetiker calls for J2a and G1a1b


IranSeh Gabi [I1670 / SG11]F4839-4617 calBCE (5870±40 BP)

U3a'cLazaridis 2016

IranSeh Gabi [I1662 / SG7]M4831-4612 calBCE (5860±40 BP)J (xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)PF4505+, CTS1250+, PF4513+, F1181+, PF4519+, PF4530+, L60+, F1744+, CTS2769+, F2116+, CTS5628+, CTS7229+, PF4567+, PF4572+, F2746+, F2769+, CTS8974+, CTS9877+, CTS10446+, F3119+, PF4591+, F3176+, PF4594+, FGC1599+, L778+, CTS11571+, CTS11750+. It was ancestral for haplogroups J1a (CTS5368), J2a1 (L26), and J2b (M314).K1a12aLazaridis 2016[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]I1662 Iran Copper Age J2a-PF5008(xL581) calls[/FONT]

IranSeh Gabi [I1661 / SG16]F4696-4491 calBCE (5740±40 BP)

H29Lazaridis 2016

IranSeh Gabi [I1674 / SG21]M3972-3800 calBCE (5105±35 BP)G1a (xG1a1)F4113+, F1761+ (L1324-)I1cLazaridis 2016[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]I1674 Iran Copper Age G1a1b-GG372 calls[/FONT]

IranSeh Gabi [I1665 / SG19]F3956-3796 calBCE (5070±30 BP)

U7aLazaridis 2016
 
"Iran_MesolithicI1293: J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)This individual belonged to haplogroup J, supported by mutations PF4519, FGC3271,PF4530, CTS5934, F2839, PF4619. It was found to be ancestral for L227 (J2a1b3) and Z639(J2b2a1a1) and could be designated as J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)."

(Additional analysis has called it as [J2a-CTS1085]"

"Iran_ChL (Chalcolithic Iran)I1662: J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)This individual was derived for mutations PF4505, CTS1250, PF4513, F1181, PF4519,PF4530, L60, F1744, CTS2769, F2116, CTS5628, CTS7229, PF4567, PF4572, F2746,F2769, CTS8974, CTS9877, CTS10446, F3119, PF4591, F3176, PF4594, FGC1599, L778,CTS11571, CTS11750 placing it in haplogroup J. It was ancestral for haplogroups J1a(CTS5368), J2a1 (L26), and J2b (M314). Thus, it is placed in haplogroup J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)"

(This has been called by Genetiker as J2a-PF5008(xL581)"

In Broushaki et al, the authors didn't assign any samples to J, but Genetiker, looking at the data, supposedly says there is a J2b-M12*.

Somebody correct the record if this is incorrect.

Georgia Epigravettian & Iran meso- & neolithic with Genetiker calls J2a, J2b*, R2a, pré-R2 and YFull WC1 G2b-M3115

https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P287/



EpigravettianGeorgiaSatsurblia caveM13,380-13,130 cal BPJ1 > genetiker pre-J1b-Y6304 (6 op 18)Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-.K3Jones 2015;Fu 2016; Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris RоttеnѕtеіnеrGeorgia (Epigravettian) 84 % CHG + 15 % steppe + 2 % WHG + 1 % EEF1,460,368https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/y-snp-calls-for-the-satsurblia-hunter-gatherer/

GeorgiaKotias KldeM9,890-9,550 cal BPJ2a > genetiker pre-J2a-Y12378 (25 op 35)M410> PF4610> Z6049> SK1321(xSK1314), Y12630+, Y12628+, SK1314/Y12595-, Y12624-, CTS3089-H13cJones 2015;Fu 2016; additional information on SNPs fromChris Rоttеnѕtеіnеrhttps://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/12/21/y-snp-calls-for-the-kotias-klde-hunter-gatherer/https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4610/KK1









MesolithicIran Hotu Cave [I1293 / Hotu IIIb]M9100-8600 BCEJ (xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)PF4519+, FGC3271+, PF4530+, CTS5934+, F2839+, PF4619+ (L227-, Z639-)
Lazaridis 2016Iran Meso + EN + LN 88 % CHG + 8 % S.Asia + 2% WHG + 1 % Karitiana + 1 % Papua J, J2b, R2, R2a, G2b2a, G2a1[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]I1293 Iran Mesolithic J2a-CTS1085 calls[/FONT]









[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]
[/FONT]
Luristan PPNIranTepe Abdul Hosein Mound (AH1)FCa 10 kaR2http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.DC1/Broushaki.SM.pdf
Luristan PPNIranTepe Abdul Hosein Mound (AH2)Child8250-7756 BC J2b-M12* R2http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.DC1/Broushaki.SM.pdf[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]AH2 Early Neolithic 8205–7756 J2b-M12* calls[/FONT]
Luristan PPNIranTepe Abdul Hosein Mound (AH4)Adult8250-7756 BCT2chttp://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.DC1/Broushaki.SM.pdf
NeolithicIranGanj Dareh [I1290 / GD 13A]F8179-7613 calBCE (8780±50 BP)

X2Gallego-Llorente 2016;Lazaridis 2016https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganj_Dareh

IranGanj Dareh [I1945 / GD 16]M8000-7700 BCEP1 (xQ, R1b1a2, R1a1a1b1a1b, R1a1a1b1a3a, R1a1a1b2a2a) > genetiker R2-M479 (2) > Y3399 (3) xY12100 (2- ;10,9ka ;10,9 ka)P282+ (F1237.1-, FGC4603-, CTS12478-, CTS11962-, L448-, Z2123-)J1c10Lazaridis 2016[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls[/FONT][FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]
[/FONT]

IranGanj Dareh [I1949 / GD 37]M8000-7700 BCECT > genetiker R2-M479 5 op 6M5593, PF228, M5624, PF342, Z17710, CTS2842, CTS5532, M5730, M5751, M5765, CTS11358.None givenLazaridis 2016[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]I1949 Iran Neolithic pre-R2-M479 calls[/FONT][FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]
[/FONT]
Kermanshah NeolithicIranWezmeh Cave (WC1)M7445-7082 BCG2brelated to 3 others >11 kaJ1d6http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.DC1/Broushaki.SM.pdf[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]WC1 Early Neolithic 7455–7082 G2b2a-Z8022 calls[/FONT]https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P287/WC1

IranSeh Gabi [I1671 / SG2]M5837-5659 calBCE (6850±50 BP)G2a1 (xG2a1a)FGC666+, FGC587+, FGC7537+, FGC592+, FGC7533+, FGC593+, FGC594, FGC7536+, FGC600+, FGC602+, FGC606+, FGC607+, FGC610+, FGC617+, FGC618+, FGC7543+, FGC7547+, FGC631+, FGC7546+, FGC635+, FGC637+, FGC639+, FGC641+ ( FGC703-, FGC741-, FGC762-).K1a12aLazaridis 2016[FONT=Cumberland,Cumberland AMT,Courier New,Cousine,Liberation Mono,Nimbus Mono L,DejaVu Sans Mono,Bitstream Vera Sans Mono,Courier,Lucida Sans Typewriter,Lucida Typewriter,Monaco,Monospaced]I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) calls[/FONT]
 
Some sections of the Silk Road (route South of the Caspian sea) connecting Badakhshan (north-eastern Afghanistan and south-eastern Tajikistan) with West Asia, Egypt and India were in use by 5 KYA32. Other section of Silk Road connecting Badakhshan to the Mesopotamian plains (the Great Khorasan Road) was in use by 6 KYA31. Archaeological evidences support similarities among widely separated Neolithic sites in these regions33 and plausibility of migration of population34.

I'd like to know more, but Silk Road 5 and 6 ka stretching into India, I don't think so.

What I would believe is that BMAC people were haplo J2 and some of them came along with the Indic R1a-Z93 during the 'Arianic' invasions 3.9-3.7 ka.
 
Some sections of the Silk Road (route South of the Caspian sea) connecting Badakhshan (north-eastern Afghanistan and south-eastern Tajikistan) with West Asia, Egypt and India were in use by 5 KYA32. Other section of Silk Road connecting Badakhshan to the Mesopotamian plains (the Great Khorasan Road) was in use by 6 KYA31. Archaeological evidences support similarities among widely separated Neolithic sites in these regions33 and plausibility of migration of population34.

I'd like to know more, but Silk Road 5 and 6 ka stretching into India, I don't think so.

What I would believe is that BMAC people were haplo J2 and some of them came along with the Indic R1a-Z93 during the 'Arianic' invasions 3.9-3.7 ka.

Then you don't think there'll be J2 in Harappa?
 
Then you don't think there'll be J2 in Harappa?

why not?
there were many immigrations into India, and J2 isn't in India due to a single immigration
it's not even sure Harappa is due to an immigration, some claim Harrapa is a development out of the Indian early neolithic
 
why not?
there were many immigrations into India, and J2 isn't in India due to a single immigration
it's not even sure Harappa is due to an immigration, some claim Harrapa is a development out of the Indian early neolithic

So how and by what route did this J2 arrive in India before Harappa? Wouldn't your objection based on natural barriers still apply?

Fwiw, I think we'll see that farming in India, like farming in Europe, was the result of demic diffusion from the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture_in_the_Indian_subcontinent
 
why not?
there were many immigrations into India, and J2 isn't in India due to a single immigration
it's not even sure Harappa is due to an immigration, some claim Harrapa is a development out of the Indian early neolithic
Some said that about neolithic europe.
 
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did I object?
based on natural barriers?
I'm not aware of that, except for Silk Road migrations into India 5 & 6 ka

I'm obviously misunderstanding you. Let's start again. What are your objections to the hypothesis that J2 brought agriculture to northwest India from the Near East?
 
I'm obviously misunderstanding you. Let's start again. What are your objections to the hypothesis that J2 brought agriculture to northwest India from the Near East?

I'm not objecting.
I haven't checked in detail but I guess there are some Indian subclades of J2 who are +/- 9000 years old and could very well be neolithic arrivals.
The same goes for some subclades of R2.
There will also be other subclades of J2 who arrived in India later, as J2 is also found on the steppe and there were many arrivals from the steppe into India.
 
I'm not objecting.
I haven't checked in detail but I guess there are some Indian subclades of J2 who are +/- 9000 years old and could very well be neolithic arrivals.
The same goes for some subclades of R2.
There will also be other subclades of J2 who arrived in India later, as J2 is also found on the steppe and there were many arrivals from the steppe into India.

Ah, ok, so we are in agreement. I think that's all very likely.
 

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