Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 142

Thread: Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe

    I have hypothesised for several years that the wave of Neolithic farmers who came from the southern Levant through North Africa brought a quite different set of haplogroups and autosomal admixture than the Anatolian farmers that colonised the Balkans and Central Europe.

    There is ample archaeological evidence that megaliths originated in the southern Levant (Israel) and Egypt and spread via the south coast of the Mediterranean to Malta, Andalusia (La Almagra Pottery culture) and southern Portugal (Algarve), then spread north along the Atlantic coast of Europe to Brittany, the British Isles, and east to inland France, Corsica, Germany, Belgium and Denmark.

    I noticed that samples from the Funnelbeaker culture in Scandinavia, which was a Megalithic culture, had an inordinate amount of Sub-Saharan African autosomal DNA. That made me wonder how it could have got there. My explanation was that it came from Iberian Megalithic people, who in turn got it from Neolithic farmers from North Africa.

    As the phylogenetic trees of Y-haplogroups are getting deeper year after year, it is becoming easier to retrace ancient migrations.

    Y-DNA haplogroups

    In my opinion, these farmers belonged to Y-haplogroups T1a, R1b-V88, E1b1b, and a few specific G2a and J1 subclades.

    Haplogroup T1a was found in Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jordan. Its expansion age dates from the Early Neolithic and its modern distribution in the Middle East suggests a stronger association with the Fertile Crescent and Southwest Asia than with Anatolia. After analysing the T1a phylogeography, it struck me that the subclades dating from the Neolithic that were found in Europe were also typically found in the Arabian peninsula and sometimes also East and North Africa. This is the case of T1a1a1a1-CTS2214 (found in Southwest Asia, East Africa and western Europe), T1a1a1b1-Y12643 (found in the Arabian peninsula and western Europe), and T1a1a1b2-Y22559 (found in North Africa and Iberia). Considering that only two T1a samples were so far found in Neolithic Europe (both from LBK Germany), there is a good chance that most T1a followed a different route than the Anatolian one taken by predominantly G2a farmers.

    Haplogroup R1b-V88 is found in the Levant, most of Africa as well as western Europe. Its presence has been confirmed in Neolithic Spain, although it was never found in the Neolithic Balkans or Central Europe, nor in Mesolithic Europe. All the data strongly supports a Neolithic diffusion from the southern Levant to North Africa, Iberia, then western Europe.

    Haplogroup E1b1b was the main lineage of the Natufians (Mesolithic southern Levant). They might have carried a mix of E-V123, E-Z827 and E-M78. Levantine Neolithic farmers would undoubtedly have carried this lineage when they colonised North and East Africa, although it very likely that E1b1b was already present on both sides of the Red Sea before the Neolithic. A small minority of Western Europeans carry E-V12 and E-V22 lineages (under M78), which could be of Neolithic origin. Likewise, E-M123 could have spread through North Africa to Western Europe, as well as again later (Bronze and Iron Ages) from the Near East to Greece and Italy.

    All Near Eastern Neolithic farmers probably carried at least some haplogroup G2a. Ancient DNA test showed that Anatolian farmers who colonised the Balkans belonged chiefly to G2a2b (L30), which is the biggest branch in Europe today, as well as G2a2a1b (L90). However, the G2a2a1a-M286 branch hasn't been found in Neolithic samples yet, and today it is present mostly in the Middle East and western Europe, but apparently not in between. This suggests that it could have been a minority lineage of South Levantine farmers.

    Haplogroup J1 most probably originated around the Caucasus. Its phylogeography shows that some early branches (like J1b) might have migrated to Europe before the Neolithic. Others spread with Neolithic farmers from the northern Middle East to Europe (L1189). More interestingly, one branch (PF7264) also expanded during the Neolithic, but is found today in the Arabian peninsula, East Africa and western Europe (Italy, Germany, Britain). This is another potential candidate for Neolithic migration along the southern Mediterranean route to Iberia, although that would be the least certain in the list.


    Mitochondrial haplogroups

    In terms of mtDNA, the Southwest Asian farmers would have carried typical Near Eastern farmers like haplogroups H5, K1a and T1a, but also other more specific to North Africa and Iberia like J2a2, X1, X2b and X3.

    I attempted to determine in this thread other lineages associated with Southwest Asian farmers and came up with mt-haplogroups M1, N1, R0, HV and U3. The Southwest Asian farmers would have absorbed other lineages in Northwest Africa before reaching the Iberian peninsula. These would surely have included U6, and perhaps also H1, H3, H4 and HV0/V.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered
    Atlantische's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-16
    Posts
    17
    Points
    901
    Level
    7
    Points: 901, Level: 7
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 49
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L42>YSC33

    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it's more logical that E1b1b entered Europe across Iberia (we have aDNA sample from Catalonia, 5000 BCE) and Sicily, and then continued to spread all over the Southern Europe and Balkans. Then, with Roman empire expansion it's spreaded to north/central Europe and Levant, mainly by Balkan Roman legions.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    174
    Points
    965
    Level
    8
    Points: 965, Level: 8
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantische View Post
    I think it's more logical that E1b1b entered Europe across Iberia (we have aDNA sample from Catalonia, 5000 BCE) and Sicily, and then continued to spread all over the Southern Europe and Balkans. Then, with Roman empire expansion it's spreaded to north/central Europe and Levant, mainly by Balkan Roman legions.
    I am on the same opinion about E1b1b for right now,is missing from the Balkans until Iron age perhaps? also i think they firstly moved from Africa to Europe through Gibraltar,i doubt they came through Anatolia or directly through the Mediteranean sea,even if they arrived earlier then Iron age in the Balkans,i would assume Iberia rest of Europe,Italy,Balkans etc route,is not so hard to cross over there,much like native Americans this way.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 20-01-17 at 16:20.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered
    Atlantische's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-16
    Posts
    17
    Points
    901
    Level
    7
    Points: 901, Level: 7
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 49
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-L42>YSC33

    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    I am on the same opinion about E1b1b for right now,is missing from the Balkans until Iron age perhaps? also i think they firstly moved from Africa to Europe through Gibraltar,i doubt they came trough Anatolia or directly trought the Mediteranean sea,is not so hard to cross over there,much like native Americans this way.
    Bolded, exactly that. We need more aDNA samples from Balkan Neolithic, (Balkan was been main route for Anatolian farmers to the Central Europe) as we can see for now, main haplogroup of first European Neolithic farmers was been G2a.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    619
    Points
    6,539
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,539, Level: 23
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 11
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The spread of the Neolithic was in a leapfrog advance, the first one in Cyprus, where Anatolian and Levantines people could assemble. The Megalithic traditions in Western Europe start at 4000 BC, 1500 years after the arrival of the first colonizers. By the way the levantine megalithism is quite recent, it would be good to know from where they came.

    https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega..._auf_dem_Golan
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    481
    Points
    4,708
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,708, Level: 20
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 342
    Overall activity: 56.0%


    Country: Germany



    The problem with this is that Megalithism seems to be significantly older in the far south of Europe than in the Levant. The early megaliths in Portugal and Italy predate the European Neolithic arrival.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The spread of the Neolithic was in a leapfrog advance, the first one in Cyprus, where Anatolian and Levantines people could assemble. The Megalithic traditions in Western Europe start at 4000 BC, 1500 years after the arrival of the first colonizers. By the way the levantine megalithism is quite recent, it would be good to know from where they came.

    https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega..._auf_dem_Golan

    Levantine Megalithism is recent? The oldest Neolithic Megalithic site is the one of Atlit Yam in coastal Israel (now submerged), dating from 7000 BCE, during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B - the exact period that was tested by Lazaridis et al. (2016) and yielded Y-haplogroups CT, E1b1b, H2 and T.

    There is another site from the same period (c. 7200 BCE) submerged 40m tall monolith under water in the Strait of Sicily, between Tunisia and Sicily, and one in southern Portugal also from circa 7000 BCE (Quinta da Queimada Menir). What we see is that all the oldest Megalithic sites are lined up along the southern coast of the Mediterranean Sea, from Israel to Portugal via Tunisia/Sicily (if we exclude the rather different Göbekli Tepe in Anatolia, which featured T-shaped sculpted pillars).

  8. #8
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The problem with this is that Megalithism seems to be significantly older in the far south of Europe than in the Levant. The early megaliths in Portugal and Italy predate the European Neolithic arrival.
    Not significantly older. They are from about the same period (7000 BCE). The dating is stone is very difficult. Archaeological dating relies on carbon 14, which is only found in organic materials, not stone. For all we know the dating could be off by several centuries.

    Anyway, not all monuments survived or were found. There could be older ones in the Levant that haven't been uncovered or couldn't be properly dated.

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    9,750
    Points
    90,288
    Level
    93
    Points: 90,288, Level: 93
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 962
    Overall activity: 93.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The problem with this is that Megalithism seems to be significantly older in the far south of Europe than in the Levant. The early megaliths in Portugal and Italy predate the European Neolithic arrival.
    Did I understand you right? Are you saying that first megalithic structures were made by european hunter gatherers? I thought it was the farmer's thing. For example first megaliths in Turkey coincide with onset of agriculture in the region about 9 thousand years BC.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    481
    Points
    4,708
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,708, Level: 20
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 342
    Overall activity: 56.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Not significantly older. They are from about the same period (7000 BCE). The dating is stone is very difficult. Archaeological dating relies on carbon 14, which is only found in organic materials, not stone. For all we know the dating could be off by several centuries.

    Anyway, not all monuments survived or were found. There could be older ones in the Levant that haven't been uncovered or couldn't be properly dated.
    Sure, but the fact that the Megalithic people unlearned agriculture & animal husbandry before they entered Europe still needs to be account for in the scenario of a Levantine origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did I understand you right? Are you saying that first megalithic structures were made by european hunter gatherers? I thought it was the farmer's thing. For example first megaliths in Turkey coincide with onset of agriculture in the region about 9 thousand years BC.
    I'm positive that the Göbeklitep layers in question also antedate the adoption of agriculture. Granted, this is quite difficult to disentangle since there is continuos human habitation at this site. In Europe it is more obvious, with a gap of almost 1,500 years between the first megaliths and agriculture in Sicily and Portugal. I don't know if the people who erected those where the hunter gatherers we know of, however.

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    9,750
    Points
    90,288
    Level
    93
    Points: 90,288, Level: 93
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 962
    Overall activity: 93.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I'm positive that the Göbeklitep layers in question also antedate the adoption of agriculture. Granted, this is quite difficult to disentangle since there is continuos human habitation at this site. In Europe it is more obvious, with a gap of almost 1,500 years between the first megaliths and agriculture in Sicily and Portugal. I don't know if the people who erected those where the hunter gatherers we know of, however.
    Considering the facts that megalithism appeared "just before" onset of agriculture, and that it is hard to date when stone was worked on by people, and that it takes tremendous labour force which h-gs usually lack, it is way more likely that megalithism was part of farming or herding societies. With farming we have necessary labour force, structured societies, specialized skills and more refined religion, all prerequisites to monumental construction.
    It is possible that more numerous h-g groups, or transitional, or mixed groups could pull off some simpler and small scale stone work and building, but I'm leaning towards full farmers as the builders of true megaliths.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    619
    Points
    6,539
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,539, Level: 23
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 11
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Not significantly older. They are from about the same period (7000 BCE). The dating is stone is very difficult. Archaeological dating relies on carbon 14, which is only found in organic materials, not stone. For all we know the dating could be off by several centuries.

    Anyway, not all monuments survived or were found. There could be older ones in the Levant that haven't been uncovered or couldn't be properly dated.
    The Western megalithism and this early Levantine megalithism are different phenomena and they are not connected in time (6500 BC v 4000 BC); the Western used dolmens for burials, but this Levantine site erected big stones to build a temple (as that of the Maltese if you like), and buried the people under the floors of their homes, I don't see the link.

  13. #13
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    3,757
    Points
    24,313
    Level
    47
    Points: 24,313, Level: 47
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 47.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I know dating is dificult, but Göbekli Tepe is older than agriculture.

    Sedentism existed before agriculture, both in the Natufian Levant as in the Hallan Cemi area (also Demirköy, Körtik Tepe, Qermez Dere, Nemrik ...) and the style of the Göbekli Tepe basreliefs is reminiscent to the style of the artefacts found in the central house of the Hallan Cemi village and other similar places.
    Göbekli Tepe seems a HG or herders place, not of farmers.

    http://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-..._num_24_1_4667
    https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedi...f-hallan-cemi/
    http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobi...er_ca_2011.pdf

    Halan Cemi was a HG village with special culling strategies who grew more and more controll over the herds of animals they hunted, both ovicaprids and boars.

    Furthermore there is a big gap in time between Göbekli Tepe and other megaliths.
    In Europe, in certain areas, all of a sudden, there are lots of megaliths.
    Göbekli Tepe is a special case, but I suspect the appearance of the other megaliths coincides with the spread of draught animals, probably oxens.
    It is the arrival of a new tribe of farmers with oxens and with a certain specific political order or cult.
    Not every tribe with oxens did build these structures.

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,140
    Points
    28,023
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,023, Level: 51
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 627
    Overall activity: 48.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Neolithic Swedes didn't have any Sub Saharan African ancestry. If they did then we'd see it in modern Northern Europeans. Well, African mtDNA does exist in Northern Europe at like 0.5%.. ADMIXTURE isn't a reliable judge for whether an ancient genome has Sub Saharan ancestry or not.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    163
    Points
    6,948
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,948, Level: 24
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 102
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have hypothesised for several years that the wave of Neolithic farmers who came from the southern Levant through North Africa brought a quite different set of haplogroups and autosomal admixture than the Anatolian farmers that colonised the Balkans and Central Europe.

    There is ample archaeological evidence that megaliths originated in the southern Levant (Israel) and Egypt and spread via the south coast of the Mediterranean to Malta, Andalusia (La Almagra Pottery culture) and southern Portugal (Algarve), then spread north along the Atlantic coast of Europe to Brittany, the British Isles, and east to inland France, Corsica, Germany, Belgium and Denmark.

    I noticed that samples from the Funnelbeaker culture in Scandinavia, which was a Megalithic culture, had an inordinate amount of Sub-Saharan African autosomal DNA. That made me wonder how it could have got there. My explanation was that it came from Iberian Megalithic people, who in turn got it from Neolithic farmers from North Africa.

    As the phylogenetic trees of Y-haplogroups are getting deeper year after year, it is becoming easier to retrace ancient migrations.

    Y-DNA haplogroups

    In my opinion, these farmers belonged to Y-haplogroups T1a, R1b-V88, E1b1b, and a few specific G2a and J1 subclades.

    Haplogroup T1a was found in Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jordan. Its expansion age dates from the Early Neolithic and its modern distribution in the Middle East suggests a stronger association with the Fertile Crescent and Southwest Asia than with Anatolia. After analysing the T1a phylogeography, it struck me that the subclades dating from the Neolithic that were found in Europe were also typically found in the Arabian peninsula and sometimes also East and North Africa. This is the case of T1a1a1a1-CTS2214 (found in Southwest Asia, East Africa and western Europe), T1a1a1b1-Y12643 (found in the Arabian peninsula and western Europe), and T1a1a1b2-Y22559 (found in North Africa and Iberia). Considering that only two T1a samples were so far found in Neolithic Europe (both from LBK Germany), there is a good chance that most T1a followed a different route than the Anatolian one taken by predominantly G2a farmers.

    Haplogroup R1b-V88 is found in the Levant, most of Africa as well as western Europe. Its presence has been confirmed in Neolithic Spain, although it was never found in the Neolithic Balkans or Central Europe, nor in Mesolithic Europe. All the data strongly supports a Neolithic diffusion from the southern Levant to North Africa, Iberia, then western Europe.

    Haplogroup E1b1b was the main lineage of the Natufians (Mesolithic southern Levant). They might have carried a mix of E-V123, E-Z827 and E-M78. Levantine Neolithic farmers would undoubtedly have carried this lineage when they colonised North and East Africa, although it very likely that E1b1b was already present on both sides of the Red Sea before the Neolithic. A small minority of Western Europeans carry E-V12 and E-V22 lineages (under M78), which could be of Neolithic origin. Likewise, E-M123 could have spread through North Africa to Western Europe, as well as again later (Bronze and Iron Ages) from the Near East to Greece and Italy.

    All Near Eastern Neolithic farmers probably carried at least some haplogroup G2a. Ancient DNA test showed that Anatolian farmers who colonised the Balkans belonged chiefly to G2a2b (L30), which is the biggest branch in Europe today, as well as G2a2a1b (L90). However, the G2a2a1a-M286 branch hasn't been found in Neolithic samples yet, and today it is present mostly in the Middle East and western Europe, but apparently not in between. This suggests that it could have been a minority lineage of South Levantine farmers.

    Haplogroup J1 most probably originated around the Caucasus. Its phylogeography shows that some early branches (like J1b) might have migrated to Europe before the Neolithic. Others spread with Neolithic farmers from the northern Middle East to Europe (L1189). More interestingly, one branch (PF7264) also expanded during the Neolithic, but is found today in the Arabian peninsula, East Africa and western Europe (Italy, Germany, Britain). This is another potential candidate for Neolithic migration along the southern Mediterranean route to Iberia, although that would be the least certain in the list.


    Mitochondrial haplogroups

    In terms of mtDNA, the Southwest Asian farmers would have carried typical Near Eastern farmers like haplogroups H5, K1a and T1a, but also other more specific to North Africa and Iberia like J2a2, X1, X2b and X3.

    I attempted to determine in this thread other lineages associated with Southwest Asian farmers and came up with mt-haplogroups M1, N1, R0, HV and U3. The Southwest Asian farmers would have absorbed other lineages in Northwest Africa before reaching the Iberian peninsula. These would surely have included U6, and perhaps also H1, H3, H4 and HV0/V.
    Maciamo, this is not correct. Haplogroup T1a-M70 was NOT found in Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jordan but instead was found T1-PF5610 (xT1a1-Z526, T1a1a-CTS9163, T1a1a-CTS2607, T1a2-S11611, T1a2-Y6031, T1a2a1-P322, T1a3a-Y9189), the most probably subclade is T1b which is negative for M70. T1b is not linked to the T1a1 found in the Early Neolithic from the North European Plain.

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    holderlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-12-14
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    567
    Points
    4,528
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,528, Level: 19
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 122
    Overall activity: 34.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    OG

    Ethnic group
    Reptoid
    Country: USA - Washington



    Was waiting for Gobekli Tepe

    Don't know about SSA in TRB, but I agree with everything else, pretty much, although as some other say I don't think there's yet evidence of super-early megaliths in the Levant per se. Gobekli Tepe is close enough for me though. I think the circum-Mediterranean expansion of farmers isn't talked about enough. The Sahara was a massive savanna until like 5000 years ago, with lakes and stuff too. This must have been prime real estate for herds.

    I lean more towards R1b-V88 coming from Iberia than anywhere else.

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    9,750
    Points
    90,288
    Level
    93
    Points: 90,288, Level: 93
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 962
    Overall activity: 93.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I know dating is dificult, but Göbekli Tepe is older than agriculture.

    Sedentism existed before agriculture, both in the Natufian Levant as in the Hallan Cemi area (also Demirköy, Körtik Tepe, Qermez Dere, Nemrik ...) and the style of the Göbekli Tepe basreliefs is reminiscent to the style of the artefacts found in the central house of the Hallan Cemi village and other similar places.
    Göbekli Tepe seems a HG or herders place, not of farmers.
    But, Peters and Schmidt say, Gobekli Tepe's builders were on the verge of a major change in how they lived, thanks to an environment that held the raw materials for farming. "They had wild sheep, wild grains that could be domesticated—and the people with the potential to do it," Schmidt says. In fact, research at other sites in the region has shown that within 1,000 years of Gobekli Tepe's construction, settlers had corralled sheep, cattle and pigs. And, at a prehistoric village just 20 miles away, geneticists found evidence of the world's oldest domesticated strains of wheat; radiocarbon dating indicates agriculture developed there around 10,500 years ago, or just five centuries after Gobekli Tepe's construction.


    Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...dDMmqSKfmuf.99
    Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
    Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter
    Gobekli Tepe sits on Fertile Crescent, in center of birth of agriculture. First domesticated wheat was excavated close by and dated at 500 years after Gobekli Tepe. Keep in mind that for grain to become genetically distinct from wild one, or sheep or pig, and called domesticated takes centuries if not a thousand of years of inbreeding them and selecting the bigger and tastier ones. It is a long proces. And usually these dates go back with more digging and discovering, and this should happen in the future. Taking under consideration that to becoming a full farmer is a long process, of couple of thousands of years I suppose, then Gobekli Tepe was built by farmers. Perhaps not so refined like these who moved into Europe, but nethertheless very early farmers and herders.

    Let's also keep in mind that we don't have any concrete evidence of any h-gs building stone temples or large scale structures of stone. Anything from Australian Aborigines, prairie Indians or Amazon jungle tribes? I don't think so. On other hand we have countless records of farmers building them. Why should it be any different in Gobekli Tepe? It is in fertile crescent after all, the cradle of farming, with domesticated grains found in close vicinity and same time period.

  18. #18
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did I understand you right? Are you saying that first megalithic structures were made by european hunter gatherers? I thought it was the farmer's thing. For example first megaliths in Turkey coincide with onset of agriculture in the region about 9 thousand years BC.
    I don't think it really matters as long as they are built by a settled community. Early farming was not a self-sufficient mode of subsistence. Almost all Early Neolithic farmers, even during the Linear Pottery culture in Central Europe 6000 years after the beginning of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent, complemented their diet by hunting and gathering. In a sense, we still do. There are still hunters, and many people go to the woods to collect mushrooms. In the Pre-Pottery Neolithic, when food couldn't be stored easily, hunting and gathering would have been about as important as farming.

  19. #19
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I know dating is dificult, but Göbekli Tepe is older than agriculture.

    Sedentism existed before agriculture, both in the Natufian Levant as in the Hallan Cemi area (also Demirköy, Körtik Tepe, Qermez Dere, Nemrik ...) and the style of the Göbekli Tepe basreliefs is reminiscent to the style of the artefacts found in the central house of the Hallan Cemi village and other similar places.
    Göbekli Tepe seems a HG or herders place, not of farmers.

    http://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-..._num_24_1_4667
    https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedi...f-hallan-cemi/
    http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobi...er_ca_2011.pdf

    Halan Cemi was a HG village with special culling strategies who grew more and more controll over the herds of animals they hunted, both ovicaprids and boars.

    Furthermore there is a big gap in time between Göbekli Tepe and other megaliths.
    In Europe, in certain areas, all of a sudden, there are lots of megaliths.
    Göbekli Tepe is a special case, but I suspect the appearance of the other megaliths coincides with the spread of draught animals, probably oxens.
    It is the arrival of a new tribe of farmers with oxens and with a certain specific political order or cult.
    Not every tribe with oxens did build these structures.
    That's a very good point. Megalithic structure might require draught animals like oxen. If so, then it makes sense that the oldest megaliths are found in Göbekli Tepe, close to the modern Syria-Turkey border, as this is exactly the region where cattle were first domesticated 10,500 years ago, and that time frame fits right in the middle of the occupation of Göbekli Tepe (11,500 to 9,000 years ago). Since all archaeological dating is approximative, and traces of cattle domestication only start showing up when cattle were completely domesticated, it is fair to assume that the whole domestication process took some time, with selective breeding over generations to prune out the less docile and more aggressive cattle. So the first attempt at cattle domestication could coincide more or less with the establishment of Göbekli Tepe.

    If megalithism originated with cattle herders from Göbekli Tepe, then according to the theory I proposed several years ago these first cattle herders would have belonged to Y-haplogroup R1b1. One branch migrated to the Caucausus and northwest Iran, before crossing over to the Pontic Steppe, while the other (R1b-V88) migrated to the Levant during the PPNB period, then to North Africa and eventually Iberia. Here is what I wrote in my R1b history:

    "The migration of R1b people can be followed archeologically through the presence of domesticated cattle, which appear in central Syria around 8,000-7,500 BCE (late Mureybet period), then in the Southern Levant and Egypt around 7,000-6,500 BCE (e.g. at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba). Cattle herders subsequently spread across most of northern and eastern Africa. The Sahara desert would have been more humid during the Neolithic Subpluvial period (c. 7250-3250 BCE), and would have been a vast savannah full of grass, an ideal environment for cattle herding.
    ...
    After reaching the Maghreb, R1b-V88 cattle herders could have crossed the Strait of Gibraltar to Iberia, probably accompanied by G2 farmers, J1 and T1a goat herders. These North African Neolithic farmers/herders could have been the ones who established the Almagra Pottery culture in Andalusia in the 6th millennium BCE."

    What is amazing is that the megalithic path follows almost exactly the route and timing taken by R1b-V88.

    Better still, Jean Manco linked the diffusion of R1b-L51 from the Steppe to western Europe with the mysterious Kurgan stelae, another kind of monoliths. So it increasingly looks like prehistoric R1b people had a thing for monoliths. If R1b-V88 really initiated the culture of megaliths in Western Europe, it is fitting and somehow amazing too that Steppe R1b people eventually migrated across all Europe to settle exactly in those Megalithic societies, as if their own culture of monolithic stelae attracted them toward the more awe-inspiring Megaliths of the Atlantic fringe. I do not think it is just a coincidence. After all, humans tend to be attracted by things they know and value. The Proto-Indo-Europeans had a military advantage thanks to bronze weapons and horses, but Megalithic culture may have exerted a certain prestige that Steppe chieftains sought to acquire for themselves. That would explain why the replacement of paternal lineages was more thorough in regions with particularly lots of megalithic monuments, like Ireland, Britain, southern Scandinavia, the Low Countries, the west coast of France or northern Spain.




    This other map shows where Megaliths were found in history. That also includes the Maykop culture (lots of dolmens) and the coastal Maghreb. It would explain everything if R1b-V88 and R1b-M269 early cattle herders were the source of all these megalithic cultures. It all fits together. Even Kurgan tombs are highly reminiscent of Atlantic Megalithic passage tombs like those of Newgrange and Knowth in Ireland. The main difference was that Steppe culture were individualistic and elitist, while Megalithic people (who were autosomally Near Eastern and WHG, instead of EHG and Gedrosia) were collectivist. But that's a distinction found in most farming vs herding communities.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #20
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    481
    Points
    4,708
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,708, Level: 20
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 342
    Overall activity: 56.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Considering the facts that megalithism appeared "just before" onset of agriculture, and that it is hard to date when stone was worked on by people, and that it takes tremendous labour force which h-gs usually lack, it is way more likely that megalithism was part of farming or herding societies. With farming we have necessary labour force, structured societies, specialized skills and more refined religion, all prerequisites to monumental construction.
    It is possible that more numerous h-g groups, or transitional, or mixed groups could pull off some simpler and small scale stone work and building, but I'm leaning towards full farmers as the builders of true megaliths.
    If early megaliths were confined to Anatolia and the Levante I'd be inclined to agree. In Europe however there is a significant gap. The Sicilian megalith became submerged in uncal. 9350 ± 200 year B.P., Impressed Ware and agriculture arrive in 6000 B.C.E. . The Portuguese megalith is dated to uncal. 9097 ± 445 year B.P., while the first traces of agriculture appear in 5600 - 5000 B.C.E. .

  21. #21
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Maciamo, this is not correct. Haplogroup T1a-M70 was NOT found in Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jordan but instead was found T1-PF5610 (xT1a1-Z526, T1a1a-CTS9163, T1a1a-CTS2607, T1a2-S11611, T1a2-Y6031, T1a2a1-P322, T1a3a-Y9189), the most probably subclade is T1b which is negative for M70. T1b is not linked to the T1a1 found in the Early Neolithic from the North European Plain.
    The mutations defining T1a were not tested. AFAIK there is no SNP defining T1b. This clade was determined using STR variations only and is extremely rare. The PPNB sample in Jordan could have been T1a or T1b, or just T1*. In my opinion it doesn't matter much because statistically the chances of it being T1* or T1a are overwhelming. In any case, all T1 would have expanded from the same region. Most very ancient samples will turn out to be men who did not leave any descendants to this day and therefore belong to extinct clades, or just a clade with an asterisk (like T1*). The older the sample and the higher the statistical chance that an individual did not pass on his Y-DNA to posterity. That's why if you were to test 100 PPNB samples in Jordan (or anywhere else) I would bet that over half of them (perhaps more like 90% of them) would belong to extinct clades (i.e. a Y-DNA lineage not ancestral to anyone alive today). That's exactly what we see with Mesolithic Europeans or the Natufians (lots of extinct C1a2, F*, I*, CT, E1b1*). This is because of natural selection (men born with beneficial mutations in the coding region of the Y chromosome had increased fertility) and because in most human societies in history people with more wealth and power tended to have more children who reached adulthood.

    All this to say that whether this sample was T1*, T1a*, T1a1* or whatever, there is a very high likelihood that that particular individual did not pass on his Y-DNA to modern T1a people. But someone else in his tribe, or the neighbouring tribe, would have.

  22. #22
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    If early megaliths were confined to Anatolia and the Levante I'd be inclined to agree. In Europe however there is a significant gap. The Sicilian megalith became submerged in uncal. 9350 ± 200 year B.P., Impressed Ware and agriculture arrive in 6000 B.C.E. . The Portuguese megalith is dated to uncal. 9097 ± 445 year B.P., while the first traces of agriculture appear in 5600 - 5000 B.C.E. .
    Don't get to obsess with dates. As I explained above, they are approximate, and even very approximate for submerged stones with no organic material left nearby.

    Additionally, when archaeologists notice migrations and advances of Neolithic cultures it is usually because a sizeable number of people moved and settled in a new region. But the truth is that humans have always had some avant-gardiste explorers. Imagine if no historical document existed to tell us that Christopher Columbus was the first European (well, Vikings excluded) to reach the American continent. If we only had archaeology to tell us when Europeans first colonised the Americas, what date would they come up with? Nobody would know where they first landed, and obviously that could have been anywhere in North, Central or South America. Our data would evolve with archaeological finds, which depend on luck and local budgets in different regions. There would be more archaeologist and more money available in the USA and more finds would emerge there first. So archaeologist might conclude at first that Europeans didn't settle in the Americas until the 17th century. Then more data would emerge from Central America that showed a slightly earlier colonisation. However, as they have to rely on carbon dating, they wouldn't be able to tell for sure within a few decades or even a century which settlement was the oldest. Furthermore, some early colonists would not have left much archaeological trace because they built wooden structure that have disappeared. Other sites might be under water if the sea level have increased even a bit. And that's for an event that happened only 500 years ago. Try 10,000 years and imagine how much more data is missing.

    Back to the Early Neolithic, I can easily imagine a group of pre-pottery cattle herder following the Mediterranean coast from the Levant and ending up in Tunisia or Morocco within a few generations. The bulk of the Neolithic population would have remained in the Fertile Crescent. But there have always been explorers, or even people banished from their land for one reason or another. Chances are that these early explorers didn't leave any trace in the archaeological record, especially if they went along a coast that is now submerged. And the Earth was in full global warming at the time. So for all we know coastal North Africa could have been settled by Neolithic farmers before Europe. It's not just the submerged coastline that is problematic, but even more so the advance of the Sahara desert, which has now gobbled up all the Neolithic savanna until the sea in most of Egypt and Libya. It's nearly impossible to find traces of a Neolithic village buried under metres of sand when you don't know where to look for it. But there could be thousands of them.

    What is certain is that R1b-V88 was found in Early Neolithic Spain, just as I had predicted years before the DNA test was done. That prediction was made based on the spread of cattle domestication from the Göbekli Tepe region as described above. I didn't think of the link with megaliths at the time.

  23. #23
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    3,757
    Points
    24,313
    Level
    47
    Points: 24,313, Level: 47
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 237
    Overall activity: 47.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Göbekli Tepe is dated to PPNA or earlier
    Natufian PPNA didn't exist east of the Euphrates, Göbekli Tepe is 80 km east of the Euphrates as the crow flies

    PPNA people grew pulses and cereals, and supplemented their diet by hunting gazelles, they didn't have domesticates
    Goats/sheep were gradually domesticated in the eastern Taurus and Zagros - Hallan Cemi - Zawi Chemi - Ganj Dareh
    oldest PPNB site is 10.7 ka Tell Aswad, another early PPNB site is Ain Ghazal
    in PPNB gazelle is replaced by goat, it is hunter/herding people from Hallan Cemi who merged with Natufians in villages
    mudbrick huts in PPNB are also different from brushwood huts in PPNA
    in PPNB Ain Ghazal the DNA is much more differentiated than in the older Natufian site on Mt Carmel

    Natufian Israel Raqefet Cave, Mount Carmel [I0685 / Nat 4] M 11840-9760 BCE CT > genetiker CT(xJ1, J2a, J2b, T1, P) CTS9555, Y1580
    Lazaridis 2016 Natufian 83 % Natufi + 14 % EEF + 1 % Papua + 1 % CHG + 1 % (WHG/ Karitiana) I1685 Levant Natufian E1b1b-CTS10365 calls
    Natufian Israel Raqefet Cave, Mount Carmel [I1069 / Nat 5] M 11840-9760 BCE E1b1 (xE1b1a1, E1b1b1b1) M5403+ (E), P179+ (E1b1), (Z1116-, CTS8649-)
    Lazaridis 2016 I1069 Levant Natufian E1b1b1-PF1871(xE1b1b1b1) calls
    Natufian Israel Raqefet Cave, Mount Carmel [I1690 / Nat 6] M 11840-9760 BCE CT > genetiker CT(xJ, L, R1a, V88, M269) Y1462, M5723, L977
    Lazaridis 2016 I1690 Levant Natufian E1b1b-CTS4345 calls
    Natufian Israel Raqefet Cave, Mount Carmel [I1072 / Nat 9] M 11840-9760 BCE E1b1b1b2 Z830 (xE1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b) CTS8182+, CTS11781+ (E1b1b1b2), (CTS1652-, CTS11051-, CTS11574-) N1b ? Lazaridis 2016
    Natufian Israel Raqefet Cave, Mount Carmel [I0861 / Nat 10] M 11840-9760 BCE E1b1b1b2 Z830 (xE1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b) L336+ (E1b1b), M5108+, CTS3637+, CTS7154+, PF1755+, L796+ (E1b1b1), CTS11781+ (E1b1b1b2), (L857-, Z865-)
    Lazaridis 2016
    Natufian Israel Raqefet Cave, Mount Carmel [I0687 / Nat 13] F 11520-11110 calBCE (11405±120 BP)


    Lazaridis 2016









    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1414 / AG 84/1] M 8300-7900 BCE E (xE2, E1a, E1b1a1a1c2c3b1, E1b1b1b1a1, E1b1b1b2b) > genetiker E-M215 (1) > M35 > Z827 > Z830 (1) P167+ (DE), CTS2893+ (E), (Z15455-, Z912-, CTS3507-, CTS11248- , Z16129-, Z16130-, CTS10196-, M293-, CTS11446- CTS11447-)
    Lazaridis 2016 Levant Neol 41 % Natufi + 52 % EEF + 1 % WHG + 2 % CHG + 1 % Eskimo + 1 % Papua + 1 % (S.Asia/ Karitiana) 3 x E1b1b + 2 x H2 + T I1414 Levant PPNB E1b1b1b2-CTS11781 calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1416 / AG 84/3] M 8300-7900 BCE CT CTS7933, M5786
    Lazaridis 2016 I1416 Levant PPNB CT(xH, I, J, K) calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1700 / AG 88_1] M 8300-7900 BCE CT > genetiker H2-P96 (2) M5603, M5624, CTS3460, M5822 None given Lazaridis 2016 I1700 Levant PPNC H2-P96 calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1727 / AG 83_30] M 8300-7900 BCE CT (xE, G, J, LT, R, Q1a, Q1b) M5723+, CTS7922+, M5769+, M5822+, M5823+ None given Lazaridis 2016 I1727 Levant PPNB F(xG, J, LT, K2) calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1415 / AG 84/2] M 8197-7653 calBCE E1b1b1 CTS2216+
    Lazaridis 2016 I1415 Levant PPNB E1b1b1b2a1-Y4974 calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1710 / AG 83_6] M 7733-7526 calBCE (8580±60 BP) E1b1b1 (xE1b1b1b1a1, E1b1b1a1b1, E1b1b1a1b2, E1b1b1b2a1c) M5041+ (CTS5819-, L618-, CTS5479-, V23-) T1a2 Lazaridis 2016 I1710 Levant PPNB E1b1b1a1-CTS675 calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1707 / AG 83_5] M 7722-7541 calBCE (8590±50 BP) T (xT1a1, T1a2a) PF7466+, CTS7263+, CTS10416+ (FGC3945.2- P322-) R0a Lazaridis 2016 I1707 Levant PPNB T1-PF5610(xT1a1, T1a2) calls
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1704 / AG 89_1] F 7446-7058 calBCE (8190±60 BP)

    T1a Lazaridis 2016
    PPNB Israel Motza [I0867 / Motz 1] M 7300-6750 BCE H2 M2713+, M2896+, M2936+, M2942+, M2992+, M3070+ (H), P96+ (H2). It was not derived for any downstream mutations K1a4b Lazaridis 2016
    PPNB Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1679 / AG 037C] F 6900-6800 BCE

    None given Lazaridis 2016
    PPNC Jordan Ain Ghazal [I1699 / AG 84_5] F 6800-6700 BCE

    R0a2 Lazaridis 2016
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H3]
    6800-6000 BC

    R0 Fernández 2008; corrected byFernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H4]
    6800-6000 BC

    K Fernández 2008; corrected byFernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H7]
    6800-6000 BC

    K Fernández 2008; corrected byFernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H8]
    6800-6000 BC

    L3 Fernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H25]
    6800-6000 BC

    K Fernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H28]
    6800-6000 BC

    U* Fernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H49]
    6800-6000 BC

    H Fernández 2008; corrected byFernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H53]
    6800-6000 BC [I1101/M11-352a]

    HV Fernández 2008; corrected byFernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H68]
    6800-6000 BC

    H Fernández 2008; corrected byFernández 2014
    PPNB Syria Tell Halula [H70]
    6800-6000 BC

    N* Fernández 2014
    Pre-pottery Neolithic B Syria Tell Ramad [R64-4II]
    6000-5750 BC

    R0 Fernández 2014
    Pre-pottery Neolithic B Syria Tell Ramad [T65-14]
    6000-5750 BC

    K Fernández 2005;Fernández 2014
    Pre-pottery Neolithic B Syria Tell Ramad [R65-C8-SEB]
    6000-5750 BC

    K Fernández 2005;Fernández 2014
    Pre-pottery Neolithic B Syria Tell Ramad [R65-1S]
    6000-5750 BC

    K Fernández 2005;Fernández 2014
    Pre-pottery Neolithic B Syria Tell Ramad [R69(2)]
    6000-5750 BC

    R0 Fernández 2014


    these are the Zagros goat herders - Ganj Dareh - they are R2 and reached the Indus Valley with goats


    Iran Ganj Dareh [I1945 / GD 16] M 8000-7700 BCE P1 (xQ, R1b1a2, R1a1a1b1a1b, R1a1a1b1a3a, R1a1a1b2a2a) > genetiker R2-M479 (2) > Y3399 (3) xY12100 (2- ;10,9ka ;10,9 ka) P282+ (F1237.1-, FGC4603-, CTS12478-, CTS11962-, L448-, Z2123-) J1c10 Lazaridis 2016 I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls

    Iran Ganj Dareh [I1949 / GD 37] M 8000-7700 BCE CT > genetiker R2-M479 5 op 6 M5593, PF228, M5624, PF342, Z17710, CTS2842, CTS5532, M5730, M5751, M5765, CTS11358. None given Lazaridis 2016 I1949 Iran Neolithic pre-R2-M479 calls


    9.8 ka first domesticated cereals arrived in this area

    this is the population after 9.8 ka - G2b and G2a1

    Kermanshah Neolithic Iran Wezmeh Cave (WC1) M 7445-7082 BC G2b related to 3 others >11 ka J1d6 http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf WC1 Early Neolithic 7455–7082 G2b2a-Z8022 calls https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P287/

    Iran Seh Gabi [I1671 / SG2] M 5837-5659 calBCE (6850±50 BP) G2a1 (xG2a1a) FGC666+, FGC587+, FGC7537+, FGC592+, FGC7533+, FGC593+, FGC594, FGC7536+, FGC600+, FGC602+, FGC606+, FGC607+, FGC610+, FGC617+, FGC618+, FGC7543+, FGC7547+, FGC631+, FGC7546+, FGC635+, FGC637+, FGC639+, FGC641+ ( FGC703-, FGC741-, FGC762-). K1a12a Lazaridis 2016 I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) calls

  24. #24
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    481
    Points
    4,708
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,708, Level: 20
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 342
    Overall activity: 56.0%


    Country: Germany



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Don't get to obsess with dates. As I explained above, they are approximate, and even very approximate for submerged stones with no organic material left nearby.

    Additionally, when archaeologists notice migrations and advances of Neolithic cultures it is usually because a sizeable number of people moved and settled in a new region. But the truth is that humans have always had some avant-gardiste explorers. Imagine if no historical document existed to tell us that Christopher Columbus was the first European (well, Vikings excluded) to reach the American continent. If we only had archaeology to tell us when Europeans first colonised the Americas, what date would they come up with? Nobody would know where they first landed, and obviously that could have been anywhere in North, Central or South America. Our data would evolve with archaeological finds, which depend on luck and local budgets in different regions. There would be more archaeologist and more money available in the USA and more finds would emerge there first. So archaeologist might conclude at first that Europeans didn't settle in the Americas until the 17th century. Then more data would emerge from Central America that showed a slightly earlier colonisation. However, as they have to rely on carbon dating, they wouldn't be able to tell for sure within a few decades or even a century which settlement was the oldest. Furthermore, some early colonists would not have left much archaeological trace because they built wooden structure that have disappeared. Other sites might be under water if the sea level have increased even a bit. And that's for an event that happened only 500 years ago. Try 10,000 years and imagine how much more data is missing.

    Back to the Early Neolithic, I can easily imagine a group of pre-pottery cattle herder following the Mediterranean coast from the Levant and ending up in Tunisia or Morocco within a few generations. The bulk of the Neolithic population would have remained in the Fertile Crescent. But there have always been explorers, or even people banished from their land for one reason or another. Chances are that these early explorers didn't leave any trace in the archaeological record, especially if they went along a coast that is now submerged. And the Earth was in full global warming at the time. So for all we know coastal North Africa could have been settled by Neolithic farmers before Europe. It's not just the submerged coastline that is problematic, but even more so the advance of the Sahara desert, which has now gobbled up all the Neolithic savanna until the sea in most of Egypt and Libya. It's nearly impossible to find traces of a Neolithic village buried under metres of sand when you don't know where to look for it. But there could be thousands of them.

    What is certain is that R1b-V88 was found in Early Neolithic Spain, just as I had predicted years before the DNA test was done. That prediction was made based on the spread of cattle domestication from the Göbekli Tepe region as described above. I didn't think of the link with megaliths at the time.
    I do not think that noticing a 1,500 year gap means that I'm obsessed with dates. To be honest, I can imagine all kinds of scenarios, but I don't think these are particularly helpful. Sacrificing these details for a beautiful narrative just seems like a bad idea considering the overall paucity of evidence.

    Moreover, I don't think the Levant is a good place for the origin of Megalithism. The intrusive Natufian antagonizes the Upper Paleolithic Euro-Anatolian cultural complex associated with Megalithism in many ways (think, for example, the abundant Venus figurines ). It's also telling that Megalithism really takes off in Western Europe, where the latter could develop unperturbed by foreign influences.

  25. #25
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,102
    Points
    586,274
    Level
    100
    Points: 586,274, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 46.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I do not think that noticing a 1,500 year gap means that I'm obsessed with dates. To be honest, I can imagine all kinds of scenarios, but I don't think these are particularly helpful. Sacrificing these details for a beautiful narrative just seems like a bad idea considering the overall paucity of evidence.
    What 1,500 years gap? There are megaliths in Israel, the Straight of Sicily and southern Portugal around 7,000 BCE, then other megaliths in southern Portugal around 6,000 BCE. During the 6th millennium BCE we see megalithic sites popping up in the Levant (Rujm el-Hiri in Israel), Egypt, Malta (Skorba temples), Portugal, Andalusia (La Almagra), Galicia, Corsica, as well as southern, central and western France (including Poitou and Brittany). What we see is a coherent complex of megalithic cultures spanning from Israel to Portugal and to Brittany, following maritime routes along the southern and western coasts of the Mediterranean and going up to the Atlantic coast of Europe. For example, the oldest megaliths in Brittany are dated to 4,800 BCE, but other were built again around 4,000 BCE, 3,300 BCE, 2,500 BCE and 2,000 BCE. Likewise in Malta there are megaliths from 4,800 BCE, 3,600 BCE and 3,200 BCE. In southern Spain, they are dated from 5,000 BCE, 4,000 BCE, 3,500 BCE and 3,000 BCE. Obviously these people weren't building megalithic monuments every century, as they tend to last, but you can see the same pattern back and forth between Israel and Portugal and between Spain and Brittany. There seems to have been a lot of movements in both directions. It was not a simple east-west migration but more likely a trade route that was used for several millennia.

    Moreover, I don't think the Levant is a good place for the origin of Megalithism. The intrusive Natufian antagonizes the Upper Paleolithic Euro-Anatolian cultural complex associated with Megalithism in many ways (think, for example, the abundant Venus figurines ). It's also telling that Megalithism really takes off in Western Europe, where the latter could develop unperturbed by foreign influences.
    I didn't suggest that Megalithism originated with the Natufians (CT, E1b1b) but with the R1b-V88 cattle herders who came from southeastern Turkey and northern Syria. I think at first it might have been only R1b-V88 herders who colonised North Africa. If there was another haplogroup it would have been T1a, but I associate it more with goat herders. Nowadays Sub-Saharan Africans tend to have only R1b-V88 (mostly Sahel, like the Hausa, Fulani, Kirdi and Berbers) or T1a (Horn of Africa), but not both together, which suggests separate migrations. The Horn of Africa also has a lot of E1b1b, but there is too little data now to estimate how much of it is Palaeolithic (old clades like M281, V6 and V92) vs Neolithic. Interestingly G2a is not found in Sub-Saharan Africa, but only in North Africa, meaning that there were at least three distinct colonising events from the Near East during the Neolithic.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •