Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: R1b-M269>PF7562

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Arame's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-15
    Posts
    181
    Points
    3,709
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,709, Level: 17
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 141
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: Armenia



    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.

    R1b-M269>PF7562

    tree.JPG




    The user Arthwr has a made a map about R1b-PF7562 branch

    He compiled data from academic papers and got this numbers

    Kosovo - 9/114 (7,89 %);
    Macedonia - 4/79 (5,06 %);
    Albania - 11/223 (4,93 %);
    Serbia - 7/235 (2,98 %);
    Armenia - 5/176 (2,84 %);
    Cyprus - 16/574 (2,79 %);
    Lezgins - 1/41 (2,44 %);
    Tabasarans - 1/43 (2,33 %);
    Greece - 8/347 (2,31 %);
    Crete - 4/193 (2,07 %);
    Turkey - 15/737 (2,04 %);
    Romania - 10/527 (1,9 %);
    Bashkirs - 10/586 (1,71 %);
    Herzegovina - 2/141 (1,42 %);
    Italy - 5/359 (1,39 %);
    Bosnia - 1/78 (1,28 %);
    Syria - 1/81 (1,23 %);
    Switzerland - 2/175 (1,14 %);
    Hungary - 4/370 (1,08 %);
    Bulgaria - 10/931 (1,07 %);
    Germany - 4/378 (1,06 %);
    Sardinia - 10/1204 (0,83 %);
    Slovenia - 4/501 (0,8 %);
    Iran - 10/1303 (0,77 %);
    Mongolia - 1/160 (0,63 %);
    Palestinians - 1/170 (0,59 %);
    Portugal - 1/190 (0,53 %);
    Denmark - 1/215 (0,47 %);
    Poland - 1/252 (0,4 %);
    Ukraine - 2/596 (0,34 %);
    Russians - 3/1093 (0,27 %);
    Jordan - 1/392 (0,26 %);
    Afghanistan - 1/507 (0,2 %);
    France - 1/535 (0,19 %);
    Croatia - 1/828 (0,12 %);
    Spain - 1/1122 (0,09 %).

    http://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/

    This branch is an excellent candidat to be a Hittite lineage because it splits before L23

    Maciamo can You add this branch in Your R1b Eupedia page?


  2. #2
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Posts
    135
    Points
    1,836
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,836, Level: 11
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Ethnic group
    Cro-Magnon/Ancient Cannibals
    Country: UAE - Dubai



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is a good candidate indeed, however 2.04% in Turkey ? you would expect the Hittites to have made a more visible contribution than this.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    raspberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-08-16
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,168
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,168, Level: 9
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 182
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Turkey



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    It is a good candidate indeed, however 2.04% in Turkey ? you would expect the Hittites to have made a more visible contribution than this.
    Yes I agree. Why should it even peak in Kosovo.. Does not seem accurate.
    1 59.1% Saudi + 40.9% North_Ossetian
    2 63.3% Saudi + 36.7% Lezgin
    3 59.4% Saudi + 40.6% Chechen

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Posts
    135
    Points
    1,836
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,836, Level: 11
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Ethnic group
    Cro-Magnon/Ancient Cannibals
    Country: UAE - Dubai



    It's a shame that it has such a low frequency in Turkey, because it does seem like a good candidate.

    Maybe it had a stronger presence in the past, but decreased because of sea peoples invasions, if it was a Hittite subclade then it must have existed among the upper class of the Hittite empire, the nobility are usually especially targeted and killed in the case of invasions and not among the common people who are subdued by the new conquerors.

    Or maybe the Hittites were mixed originally before they migrate from Maykop ?? maybe alongside a Caucasian haplogroup like J2 or G2. If it is Hittite then why does it exist in the Balkans ? was there any relation between Maykop and Ezero cultures ?

  5. #5
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,933
    Points
    557,463
    Level
    100
    Points: 557,463, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for sharing. I have now added PF7562 to the R1b tree.



    It looks like this branch represents a migration out of the Pontic Steppe just before the Yamna period, and would therefore correspond to the Sredny Stog culture or the Khvalynsk culture. Since it appears to be a migration toward the Balkans, I would go with the western Sredny Stog culture. The presence of PF7562 to Turkey and Armenia would be attributable to later migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia and Armenia, such as the Phrygians (alongside other haplogroups, including other branches of R1b that came to the Balkans during the Yamna period).
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Posts
    135
    Points
    1,836
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,836, Level: 11
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Ethnic group
    Cro-Magnon/Ancient Cannibals
    Country: UAE - Dubai



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for sharing. I have now added PF7562 to the R1b tree.



    It looks like this branch represents a migration out of the Pontic Steppe just before the Yamna period, and would therefore correspond to the Sredny Stog culture or the Khvalynsk culture. Since it appears to be a migration toward the Balkans, I would go with the western Sredny Stog culture. The presence of PF7562 to Turkey and Armenia would be attributable to later migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia and Armenia, such as the Phrygians (alongside other haplogroups, including other branches of R1b that came to the Balkans during the Yamna period).
    If this branch isn't Hittite then what ? no other subclade of R1a or R1b is fit to have been present among the Anatolian Indo-Europeans. btw the tree hasn't been modified.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,933
    Points
    557,463
    Level
    100
    Points: 557,463, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    If this branch isn't Hittite then what ? no other subclade of R1a or R1b is fit to have been present among the Anatolian Indo-Europeans. btw the tree hasn't been modified.
    You need to clear your browser cache to see the updated tree.

    All I can say now is that the PF7562 branch appears to be related to the Sredny Stog incursions into the Balkans from 4200 to 3500 BCE. It isn't clear whether the Hittites descend from this pre-Yamna migration or not. Linguistically Hittite and other Anatolian IE languages are archaic and appear to have split long before the other branches split from each others. However the Hittites only show up in 1600 BCE, nearly 2000 years after the Yamna culture began and many centuries after R1b reached western Europe.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Posts
    135
    Points
    1,836
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,836, Level: 11
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Ethnic group
    Cro-Magnon/Ancient Cannibals
    Country: UAE - Dubai



    Yes the fact that Anatolian languages are archaic compared to other branches of IE is key here, this suggests the Anatolians lived in separate culture than other IE tribes who originated in yamna, Hittites do appear around 1600 BC coincidentally with other IE nations like the Mittani and maybe the Kassites (earlier rulers had indo-Aryan names, later rulers seem to have adopted semetic names), which may suggest the Hittites are R1a like the last two, but the Mittani clearly had an indo-aryan language similar to Sanskrit while the Hittites are very ancient and unrelated.

    I may sound crazy but what if .. the M335 at the top of the tree is the Hittite branch ?? it stayed in Anatolia (or in Maykop ?? then Anatolia) while the main branch crossed the Caucasus, it developed a distinct IE language separate from developments in Yamna ? what am I talking about .. I forgot the V88 branch ... well .. what if the V88 branch also spoke something resembling IE but was never documented ?

    M335 is not even 0.5% in Turkey. The Hittites are for sure good at getting extinct, so much for that theory.

    WHAT IN SEVEN HELLS WERE THEY .. I WANT TO KNOW

  9. #9
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    1,975
    Points
    25,392
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,392, Level: 48
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 158
    Overall activity: 25.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Super Interesting. L23 isn't the only successful form of M269. R1b PF7562's popularity in Italy to me indicates there's SE European ancestry in Italy, which could have brought J2 and E1b V13 as well. But that's just speculation, I'm waiting for ancient DNA.

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Yes the fact that Anatolian languages are archaic compared to other branches of IE is key here, this suggests the Anatolians lived in separate culture than other IE tribes who originated in yamna, Hittites do appear around 1600 BC coincidentally with other IE nations like the Mittani and maybe the Kassites (earlier rulers had indo-Aryan names, later rulers seem to have adopted semetic names), which may suggest the Hittites are R1a like the last two, but the Mittani clearly had an indo-aryan language similar to Sanskrit while the Hittites are very ancient and unrelated.

    I may sound crazy but what if .. the M335 at the top of the tree is the Hittite branch ?? it stayed in Anatolia (or in Maykop ?? then Anatolia) while the main branch crossed the Caucasus, it developed a distinct IE language separate from developments in Yamna ? what am I talking about .. I forgot the V88 branch ... well .. what if the V88 branch also spoke something resembling IE but was never documented ?

    M335 is not even 0.5% in Turkey. The Hittites are for sure good at getting extinct, so much for that theory.

    WHAT IN SEVEN HELLS WERE THEY .. I WANT TO KNOW
    We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

    We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

    I'm not convinced, but we'll see.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ohannes+Krause


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  11. #11
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,933
    Points
    557,463
    Level
    100
    Points: 557,463, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

    We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

    I'm not convinced, but we'll see.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ohannes+Krause
    Perhaps that is the scenario that you imagined in your mind, but I don't see any similarity with the PIE migration map proposed by Johannes Krause.




    His map indicates that IE languages spread once with Neolithic farmers from the Levant (red line) and a second time from the Caucasus/Northern Mesopotamia (green line). This is just not possible. Besides, I am surprised that Krause would believe that Indo-Iranian speakers originated in the Zagros region (like Goga would have it) and not from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where the oldest R1a-M417 was clearly shown to have originated. I think you are letting your respect for Krause overshadow what he is actually saying, and distort his ideas into what you would like him to be saying.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  12. #12
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    425
    Points
    4,196
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,196, Level: 18
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 85.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Perhaps that is the scenario that you imagined in your mind, but I don't see any similarity with the PIE migration map proposed by Johannes Krause.

    His map indicates that IE languages spread once with Neolithic farmers from the Levant (red line) and a second time from the Caucasus/Northern Mesopotamia (green line). This is just not possible. Besides, I am surprised that Krause would believe that Indo-Iranian speakers originated in the Zagros region (like Goga would have it) and not from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where the oldest R1a-M417 was clearly shown to have originated. I think you are letting your respect for Krause overshadow what he is actually saying, and distort his ideas into what you would like him to be saying.
    Clearly, the red line doesn't mark the spread of Indo-European languages per se, but the influence of the neolithic phenomenon in the formative stages of PIE. Even orthodox scholars like Sergent and Witzel who assume that all IE languages dispersed from the steppe posit a proto-stage in the Middle East to account for the linguistic and cultural affinities of Indo-European.

    I.E. is assigned a reasonable age of 8,000 BP on the map, so it postdates the neolithic movement into the Balkans.

  13. #13
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,933
    Points
    557,463
    Level
    100
    Points: 557,463, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Clearly, the red line doesn't mark the spread of Indo-European languages per se, but the influence of the neolithic phenomenon in the formative stages of PIE. Even orthodox scholars like Sergent and Witzel who assume that all IE languages dispersed from the steppe posit a proto-stage in the Middle East to account for the linguistic and cultural affinities of Indo-European.

    I.E. is assigned a reasonable age of 8,000 BP on the map, so it postdates the neolithic movement into the Balkans.
    There was no article or video linked with the map that Angela posted. All she mentions is that Krause proposed an alternate model for the spread of IE languages, in which the Steppe diffusion was only secondary, and the main source of IE languages was in the Near East. It would be highly confusing to accompany that with a map showing the diffusion of agriculture if Krause didn't mean that the primary diffusion of IE languages was that agricultural diffusion (red line).

    If he means that IE languages originated south of the Caucasus with Neolithic R1b cattle herders, that has been my theory since I first gave my opinion on the subject in 2009 and there is nothing novel or alternate about it. Considering that Eupedia is one of the most visited websites about historical population genetics it would be surprising if at least some people in the Reich's lab had not read my R1b page. After all I have had request to reprint my maps from many universities and professors, and others (like Mark Thomas of UCL and ISOGG) went on and used them without asking permission at all.


    As for PIE dating from c. 8,000 BP, that is reasonable, but by that time R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 were in the Khvalynsk culture in the Steppe, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say that the Indo-Iranian invasions started from the South Caucasus. After all, results from the Reich lab itself showed that there was no EHG or WHG in the Caucasus during the Neolithic, and that it only arrived from the Late Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. Modern Iranians and Indian Brahmins, Pakistanis and Pathans have about 13% of North European (Mesolithic European) admixture today. How else to explain it if R1a-Z93 didn't originate in NE Europe, but in the Near East as Krause proposes?
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    425
    Points
    4,196
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,196, Level: 18
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 85.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There was no article or video linked with the map that Angela posted. All she mentions is that Krause proposed an alternate model for the spread of IE languages, in which the Steppe diffusion was only secondary, and the main source of IE languages was in the Near East. It would be highly confusing to accompany that with a map showing the diffusion of agriculture if Krause didn't mean that the primary diffusion of IE languages was that agricultural diffusion (red line).

    If he means that IE languages originated south of the Caucasus with Neolithic R1b cattle herders, that has been my theory since I first gave my opinion on the subject in 2009 and there is nothing novel or alternate about it. Considering that Eupedia is one of the most visited websites about historical population genetics it would be surprising if at least some people in the Reich's lab had not read my R1b page. After all I have had request to reprint my maps from many universities and professors, and others (like Mark Thomas of UCL and ISOGG) went on and used them without asking permission at all.


    As for PIE dating from c. 8,000 BP, that is reasonable, but by that time R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 were in the Khvalynsk culture in the Steppe, so it makes no sense whatsoever to say that the Indo-Iranian invasions started from the South Caucasus. After all, results from the Reich lab itself showed that there was no EHG or WHG in the Caucasus during the Neolithic, and that it only arrived from the Late Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. Modern Iranians and Indian Brahmins, Pakistanis and Pathans have about 13% of North European (Mesolithic European) admixture today. How else to explain it if R1a-Z93 didn't originate in NE Europe, but in the Near East as Krause proposes?
    On the second glance, the inclusion of the Natufian complex and the given date of 44,000 BP probably means that Krause et al. subscribe to Lazaridis' quite outlandish theory of a Middle Eastern 'Mousterian' Basal Eurasian, so the red line should perhaps be not interpreted as merely the spread of agriculture but the spread of the population that mixed with the indigenous West Eurasian and Central Eurasian branches to give birth to EEF, CHG and so forth. Its inclusion would make more sense then, since this movement of people would have brought with it the both Middle-Eastern languages and the population dynamic that facilitated the agricultural revolution.

    About the derivation of Indo-Iranian from Iran I'm not sure. Perhaps they have access to as yet unpublished samples? Or they might simply believe that the spread of Indo-European wasn't firmly tied to any particular uniparental marker?

  15. #15
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,933
    Points
    557,463
    Level
    100
    Points: 557,463, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    About the derivation of Indo-Iranian from Iran I'm not sure. Perhaps they have access to as yet unpublished samples? Or they might simply believe that the spread of Indo-European wasn't firmly tied to any particular uniparental marker?
    A sample that has the power to contradict all other samples tested to date?
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  16. #16
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    For clarity, this was my post:


    We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

    We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

    I'm not convinced, but we'll see."

    I don't know what Krause(and perhaps Haak) mean(s) by including the Neolithic migration path to the map, as to my knowledge no one has reported or recorded what he said at that meeting. If someone has additional information, that would be interesting.

    The fact that he (they) may be heading toward a theory of two staging grounds for PIE, south and then north of the Caucasus, or, in addition, that he might be supportive of some role for the Neolithic in the development of PIE, doesn't mean that I agree with him.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  17. #17
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    7,933
    Points
    557,463
    Level
    100
    Points: 557,463, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 82.0%


    Ethnic group
    Celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For clarity, this was my post:


    We've actually discussed this theory quite a lot here, i.e. the primary staging ground of IE in the southern Caucasus, with a secondary one on the PC plain.

    We also speculated that this is where Krause is heading.

    I'm not convinced, but we'll see."

    I don't know what Krause(and perhaps Haak) mean(s) by including the Neolithic migration path to the map, as to my knowledge no one has reported or recorded what he said at that meeting. If someone has additional information, that would be interesting.

    The fact that he (they) may be heading toward a theory of two staging grounds for PIE, south and then north of the Caucasus, or, in addition, that he might be supportive of some role for the Neolithic in the development of PIE, doesn't mean that I agree with him.
    In terms of linguistics, the only way a PIE origin in the South Caucasus could make sense is if the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, etc.) split before crossing the Caucasus, because all the other main branches split around the same time and that time coincides with the Yamna period. However there are many problems with the Anatolian branch splitting up so early. First, as I said above, the Hittites only appear around 1600 BCE, nearly 2000 years after the start of Yamna. Secondly, they had the same Steppe technologies (bronze, horses and even chariots) as other IE tribes, and they simply couldn't have arrived with that whole IE Steppe package if they had always remained south of the Caucasus (especially chariots, which were still brand new at the time and hadn't reached central or western Europe yet). Then in terms of haplogroups, there is just no old branch of R1b (slightly older than Z2103 and L51) or R1a (slightly older than M417) present in Anatolia in large number enough that would point to a pre-Yamna split of the Anatolian IE. The only good candidate was this PF7562, but as its distribution just doesn't correspond (if the above map is remotely correct).

    In any case I didn't see anything in Krause's map that indicated that the Anatolian branch was the one that originated south of the Caucasus. He clearly showed that he thought it was the Indo-Iranian branch that did. There is a green arrow going left to south-west Anatolia, almost the only part of Anatolia that was not part of the Hittite Empire.
    Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-01-17
    Posts
    63
    Points
    509
    Level
    5
    Points: 509, Level: 5
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 41
    Overall activity: 27.0%


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Then in terms of haplogroups, there is just no old branch of R1b (slightly older than Z2103 and L51) or R1a (slightly older than M417) present in Anatolia in large number enough that would point to a pre-Yamna split of the Anatolian IE. The only good candidate was this PF7562, but as its distribution just doesn't correspond (if the above map is remotely correct).
    My three cents on that matter:
    ct1: I don't believe that the data and maps are for real .There's a good deal of spirited thinking in these claims. The 193 Cretans, for instance, can only be from the research of King 2008. He didn't break down R1b past M269. He provided STR data for E-V13 and J2 subgroups, but not for R groups. There is no way to deduce anything below M269 from his data. Greek data may as well be estimates - all of them are from a time before researchers could get past the M269 in the eastern branches. Many other data, even newer ones, may be faulty as well. It is not allowable to say that all non-L51 are automatically Z2103, or all non-L23 are PF7563, as it seems to be done (to me at least) from a short look at the data.

    ct2: It is not necessary to see anatolian languages as archaic compared to all other IE languages. They have a different development, but they can by no means regarded as more original or conserving - on the contrary, some features look almost 'modern'. There is this thought that PIE is the accumulation of all features that any IE language has, and all what is lost from this pseudo-PIE is modern, and everything else is archaic. I'd say that this is simply rubbish. Anatolian languages' split off isn't much earlier than other languages, at least linguistics has no proof for such a claim.

    ct3: Voskarides 2016 in his Cyprus study tells that M589, which is downwards of Z2103, could be found in Cyprus and Anatolia, but not in the Balkans or Crete. If there is a subgroup that HAS BY ALL MEANS to suit to the anatolian language group, this is a decent candidate. It's good within the time frame and its limitation to Anatolia fulfills the demands as well.

  19. #19
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered

    Join Date
    25-02-17
    Posts
    3
    Points
    59
    Level
    1
    Points: 59, Level: 1
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-PF7563

    Country: Ukraine



    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    My three cents on that matter:
    ct1: I don't believe that the data and maps are for real .There's a good deal of spirited thinking in these claims. The 193 Cretans, for instance, can only be from the research of King 2008. He didn't break down R1b past M269. He provided STR data for E-V13 and J2 subgroups, but not for R groups. There is no way to deduce anything below M269 from his data. Greek data may as well be estimates - all of them are from a time before researchers could get past the M269 in the eastern branches. Many other data, even newer ones, may be faulty as well. It is not allowable to say that all non-L51 are automatically Z2103, or all non-L23 are PF7563, as it seems to be done (to me at least) from a short look at the data.
    Crete:
    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    Greece:
    Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan
    Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma
    Large-scale recent expansion of European patrilineages shown by population resequencing
    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    etc.

  20. #20
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered

    Join Date
    25-02-17
    Posts
    3
    Points
    59
    Level
    1
    Points: 59, Level: 1
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-PF7563

    Country: Ukraine



    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    ct1: I don't believe that the data and maps are for real .There's a good deal of spirited thinking in these claims. The 193 Cretans, for instance, can only be from the research of King 2008. He didn't break down R1b past M269. He provided STR data for E-V13 and J2 subgroups, but not for R groups. There is no way to deduce anything below M269 from his data. Greek data may as well be estimates - all of them are from a time before researchers could get past the M269 in the eastern branches. Many other data, even newer ones, may be faulty as well. It is not allowable to say that all non-L51 are automatically Z2103, or all non-L23 are PF7563, as it seems to be done (to me at least) from a short look at the data.
    Crete:
    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe


    Greece:
    Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan
    Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma
    Large-scale recent expansion of European patrilineages shown by population resequencing
    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe


    etc.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    121
    Points
    846
    Level
    7
    Points: 846, Level: 7
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 104
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Well…being me, just to put it out there.
    M269>PF7562 (my side of the story) . Before going there…. Would love to know what haplotypes do Bagvalins (50-70% r1b) really have.


    M269 was born in shulaveri shomu in south Caucasus (70000- 6000bc). So was PF7562 and L23 (6000bc-5000bc). Maybe some clade in Armenia (so Aratashen) and even some part of Halaf maybe. But in Georgia, by 4900BC something powerfull came and dislodge them really fast. Some moved north of Caucasus (can’t believe Krause choose “my” 4.900bc and not say a date like 5000bc) and there were L23 in it. Same event sent part of them up to the mountains to run away from whatever and became part populations of Dagestan, especially the one deep in the mountains such as bagvalal (70% r1b??) and tindal (J2?) and even south Ossetes. Some ran south of black sea ( I still think Kum6 as a Shulaveri woman, but Davidski garantees no CHG In her) and naturally into Balkans (PF7562?).
    Well
    For some that do not know the rest of “my story”… the ones I really care about are the ones I think became Merimda and El-omari in 5th milenia and after the 5,9Kiloyear event start arriving to Iberia by 3,500bc, with fleeing north Africa populations that I think those days had a lot of WHG admix and those descendants of el-omari were the ones that became Bell beakers.
    Pretty Crazy I know… but I will be right in the end.

  22. #22
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered

    Join Date
    25-02-17
    Posts
    3
    Points
    59
    Level
    1
    Points: 59, Level: 1
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-PF7563

    Country: Ukraine



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Bagvalins (50-70% r1b) really have.

    bagvalal (70% r1b??)
    Bagvalal - R1b 19/38 (50 %):
    Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan
    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    121
    Points
    846
    Level
    7
    Points: 846, Level: 7
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 104
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Plator View Post
    Bagvalal - R1b 19/38 (50 %):
    Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan
    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe
    Yes...but I would love to know which Y mutations they have and have not so that we could compare with other populations.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    162
    Points
    3,778
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,778, Level: 17
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 72
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    The most disappointing thing about this thread/forum and Davidski's blog is the constant flow of t r o l l s who argue their personal theories that aren't supported by any data at all. R1b has absolutely nothing at all to do with the ancient Caucasus, either north or south. R1b is clearly intrusive to the Caucasus and lacks the age and diversity we would expect in the region. R1b is a hunter-gatherer lineage of Russia along with R1a. Outside of Armenians, R1b is at considerably lower frequency than the YDNA haplogroups that have been associated with the region, but also with the spread of farming. Sure a couple of smallsample sets in the north east Caucasus have shown high frequency but the caveat is that they are young founders. It's rather clear from the map that R1b was either native to Europe/European Balkans or Russia (steppes region in particular). Since the spread of the more successful branches of R1b are younger than the entrance of farming to Europe, one can only infer through the data, it arrived from the Russian steppes, that is, until the data points otherwise.

    To the OP, I think R1b- both M269+ L23+ and M269+ L23- are excellent candidates for Hittite, but also likely the Cimmerians as well. The Mycenaean speaking Greeks and Illyrian language speakers should be added to that list. The Neolithic period of the Balkans are unlikely to have contained heavy doses of R1b, and if they were present, they were likely archaic versions of R1b that were overrun by the spread of farmers who arrived from the south and east.

  25. #25
    Elite member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-07-16
    Posts
    425
    Points
    4,196
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,196, Level: 18
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 54
    Overall activity: 85.0%


    Country: Germany





    Where's the R1b in Russia supposed to have come from? Inner earth?

    I always thought that arguments about age and diversity precisely disfavoured an European origin.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •