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Thread: Afanasievo was R1b1a2

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    Afanasievo was R1b1a2

    Peuplement du sud de la sibérie et de I’ Altaï à I’âge du Bronze : apport de la paléogénétique

    That French Thesis presents Y DNA, mtDNA, and hand picked SNP results for many ancient northern Asians.
    Y DNA results pg. 88
    mtDNA results pg. 80
    Pigmentation SNP results pg. 180
    Description of Archaeological Sites pg. 44

    Here are the Y DNA results of the ancient northern Asians...

    Afanasevo Culture, 3600-2600 BC
    R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a(xR1b1a1 M73)

    Bol'shemysskaya Culture. Eneolithic.
    R1b1a2-M269

    Okunevo Culture, 2300-1800 BC
    NO(xO), NO(xO), NO(xO), Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3-M346(xL54), R1b1a2-M269.

    Munkh-Khairkhan Culture, 1700-1400 BC
    NO(xO), NO(xO)

    Sagsai Culture, 1400-900 BC
    Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, C-M130

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'll make a post at my blog about ancient North Asian mtDNA soon. The mtDNA results from this thesis are similar to already released results of ancient North Asians from the same time period. The only differnce are orignally Near Eastern lineages which Afanasevo introduced; T2a1b, H6, J.

    T2a1b has been found in Yamnaya and Afanasievo already. H6 has been found in Afanasevo, Yamnaya, Catacomb, and all Steppe admixed cultures in Europe.

    Several Afanasievo indviduals from this thesis and a recently published paper have East Asian mHGs. This is surprising because Afanasievo genomes are identical to Yamnaya, they have no East Asian admixture.

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    Afanasevo results in pigmentation SNPs. These results are consistent with results from Yamnaya.

    Indvidual ID, rs16891982, rs12913832, mtDNA
    Kh19: CG, A, mHG C
    Kh20: G, AG, mHG C
    Kh21: CG, G, mHG H6
    Kh22: C, A, mHG U4
    Aaf2: G, AG, mHG H?
    Aaf3: C, --, mHG U5a1d2b
    Maf1: CG, A, H?

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    @Fire-Haired,

    The Altai is not North Asia. Even if it were, these people didn't "originate" there.

    The pigmentation makes sense if Afanasievo is an offshoot of eastern Yamnaya. Not blonde cowboys of the steppe, I'm afraid.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
    Some reconstruction:

    Afanasevo Culture


    Bol'shemysskaya Culture


    Okunevo Culture


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    Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
    The reconstructions are Caucasoid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
    Some reconstruction:

    Afanasevo Culture


    Bol'shemysskaya Culture


    Okunevo Culture

    I don't think okunevo people looks like that. However, okunevo and afanasievo Y seem to explain all things well.
    by the way, what kind of culture is Bol'shemysskaya Culture?

    The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.

    CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009
    by AG Kozintsev


    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Afanasevo results in pigmentation SNPs. These results are consistent with results from Yamnaya.

    Indvidual ID, rs16891982, rs12913832, mtDNA
    Kh19: CG, A, mHG C
    Kh20: G, AG, mHG C
    Kh21: CG, G, mHG H6
    Kh22: C, A, mHG U4
    Aaf2: G, AG, mHG H?
    Aaf3: C, --, mHG U5a1d2b
    Maf1: CG, A, H?
    Yes, they are almost exactly like East Yamnayans. Probably a bit more northern or eastern as they mixed less with Transcaucasian immigrants. They had a bit less Baloch and Caucasian and a bit more NE Euro than Yamnaya. Otherwise 90% exactly same genetics. They had 1.5% more Siberian, but otherwise 0% SE Asian, so no East Asiatic/Mongoloid admixtures yet.

    M828784 Rise511 M343758 I0443
    Afanasievo Yamnaya
    Run time 9.70 Run time 9.86
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 28.13 Baloch 30.37
    Caucasian 2.18 Caucasian 6.26
    NE-Euro 63.76 NE-Euro 58.91
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 1.64 Siberian 0.13
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan -
    American 3.56 American 2.00
    Beringian - Beringian 1.31
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean 0.87
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.72 W-African 0.13
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
    The reconstructions are Caucasoid.
    There have been a fully Mongoloid skulls and fully Europeoid skulls. Mongoloid skulls prevailed. It's just a reconstruction of Europeoids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not blonde cowboys of the steppe, I'm afraid.
    Blonde cowboys were Andronovo, Sintashta, Potapovka and Srubnaya, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Have Okunevo and subsequent culture been tested for EDAR and other Mongoloïd traits?
    The reconstructions are Caucasoid.
    Problem is afanasievo had 2 EDNAR.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I don't think okunevo people looks like that. However, okunevo and afanasievo Y seem to explain all things well.
    But Russian anthropologists, who found there Mongoloid and Caucasoid skulls, think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009
    by AG Kozintsev
    According to A.V. Gromov, Okunevo is a mixed culture consisting of newcomers Afanasevan and local Neolithic (Mongoloid) population. And the result of Y DNA confirm this.
    Also Caucasoid skulls of Okunevo similar to the Yamnaya of Kalmykia and Astrakhan, and have a similar artificial deformation. (Gromov 2002)

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    My motto has become never trust reconstructions based just on skulls or parts of skulls. A lot of fantasy goes into them unless you have desiccated mummies like Otzi, which give a lot more information, and even then be a little skeptical.

    SHG also had EDAR.

    I wasn't discussing anything but Afanasievo, so all the Eurogenes fan boys can relax.

    Still, I think it's pretty clear that "Fairness" did not come from Yamnaya itself, unless the western more admixed populations of the total Yamnaya horizon carried it.

    On Jean's page, I don't see any results for pigmentation for Srubnaya. Andronovo has a brown hair and brown eyes, although a lot of light eyes as well. I don't see any results from Sintashta. Maybe more modern papers didn't test for it? I don't know.
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/cop...zeagedna.shtml

    Maybe Fire-Haired has some other results.

    Whatever, this is the least important part of this study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Also Caucasoid skulls of Okunevo similar to the Yamnaya of Kalmykia and Astrakhan, and have a similar artificial deformation. (Gromov 2002)
    I think Okunevo genetics admixture agrees with AG Kozintsev's 2009 reserach.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not

    By the way, did okunevo and Yamnaya's skulls have a deformation also like afanasievo's?

    One more, I cannot find the information about Bol'shemysskaya Culture.
    can you give me information about that culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    By the way, did okunevo and Yamnaya's skulls have a deformation also like afanasievo's?
    Nothing said about it. Presumably, the deformation was due to the similarity of designs children's cradles.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    One more, I cannot find the information about Bol'shemysskaya Culture.
    can you give me information about that culture?
    Mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid population, according to the link. Not so much info, only in Russian, try Google-translate:
    http://altarcheomuseum.wixsite.com/a...ogy/eneolithic
    http://new.hist.asu.ru/biblio/borod1/254-261.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think Okunevo genetics admixture agrees with AG Kozintsev's 2009 reserach.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not
    The Yeniseian cultures gave birth to the cultural superstrate of the steppe that persisted well into historic times (and arguably still exists among extant Siberian & Eastern European populations). People of variegated background and morphology would probably have assimilated into this umbrella. Russian archaeologists sometimes misleadingly refer cultures of this typology as 'Scythic' (as opposed to 'Scythian', which is used to denote Iranian linguistic affiliation), but 'Siberian' would probably more appropriate since due to its origin in Okunevo.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The Yeniseian cultures gave birth to the cultural superstrate of the steppe that persisted well into historic times (and arguably still exists among extant Siberian & Eastern European populations). People of variegated background and morphology would probably have assimilated into this umbrella. Russian archaeologists sometimes misleadingly refer cultures of this typology as 'Scythic' (as opposed to 'Scythian', which is used to denote Iranian linguistic affiliation), but 'Siberian' would probably more appropriate since due to its origin in Okunevo.
    The longest genetic close continuity of steppe nations (that we found so far) is so far Yamnaya-Afansievo-Scythian:
    Yamnaya
    M828815 Rise552 M828784 Rise511 M348213 i0247
    Ulan iV, Yamnaya 4.5 kya Afanasievo scythian
    Run time 9.08 Run time 9.7 Run time 11.07
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0.67
    Baloch 33.24 Baloch 28.13 Baloch 24.99
    Caucasian 6.58 Caucasian 2.18 Caucasian 7.68
    NE-Euro 56.02 NE-Euro 63.76 NE-Euro 45.27
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.83
    Siberian - Siberian 1.64 Siberian 6.39
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian 1.31
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American 2.46 American 3.56 American 2.85
    Beringian 0.75 Beringian - Beringian 1.4
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean 8.62
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.95 W-African 0.72 W-African -

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    finally we see some more of the advance of Y-DNA N westbound into Siberia
    it's a pitty we don't have any subclades, just NOxO

    till now we just had 1 individual N in Smolensk area 4.5 ka and the 'K' in Bajkal Kitoi, which IMO is N, though we don't have subclades there either

    what is Munkh-Khairkhan Culture, 1700-1400 BC ?

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    The haplogroup of Munkh-Khairkhan samples is not clear. On the basis of SNP it is defined NO-214 and on the basis of DYS values C3 with only 55.4% and 77.1% probability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    SHG also had EDAR.
    Pretty much everyone in this study had EDAR except Afanasuvo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    On Jean's page, I don't see any results for pigmentation for Srubnaya. Andronovo has a brown hair and brown eyes, although a lot of light eyes as well. I don't see any results from Sintashta. Maybe more modern papers didn't test for it? I don't know.
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/cop...zeagedna.shtml

    Maybe Fire-Haired has some other results.
    Srubnaya and Sintashta results are the same as Andronovo so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Pretty much everyone in this study had EDAR except Afanasuvo.



    Srubnaya and Sintashta results are the same as Andronovo so far.
    and is there a difference between Srubnaya and Catacomb?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The longest genetic close continuity of steppe nations (that we found so far) is so far Yamnaya-Afansievo-Scythian:
    Yamnaya
    M828815 Rise552 M828784 Rise511 M348213 i0247
    Ulan iV, Yamnaya 4.5 kya Afanasievo scythian
    Run time 9.08 Run time 9.7 Run time 11.07
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0.67
    Baloch 33.24 Baloch 28.13 Baloch 24.99
    Caucasian 6.58 Caucasian 2.18 Caucasian 7.68
    NE-Euro 56.02 NE-Euro 63.76 NE-Euro 45.27
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.83
    Siberian - Siberian 1.64 Siberian 6.39
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian 1.31
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American 2.46 American 3.56 American 2.85
    Beringian 0.75 Beringian - Beringian 1.4
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean 8.62
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.95 W-African 0.72 W-African -
    and how about
    Sintashta-Andronovo-Scythian?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    No big surprise for Afanasievo's R1b-M269. I have been saying it since 2009.

    Okunevo's NO(xO) might be Siberian N1c, which spread from Mongolia/Manchuria to Northeast Europe, although at a much earlier date. This could be a second migration from Mongolia, this time accompanied by Q1a-L54.

    It's not impossible that a very small percentage of Q1a came into Europe with the Proto-Uralic N1c migration circa 5000 BCE. After all Q1a was found in the Khvalynsk culture. Q1a-L54 is ancestral to all Mongolian people, but also to Amerindians and to half of Scandinavian Q1a (the other branch being Q-L527). That would explain how that particular Q1a got into Northeast Europe. Note how L54's brother clade, YP4004 is now found in Siberia, Poland and the North Caucasus. It might have come to Europe together with N1c and Q1a-L54 (presumably the Q-L804 subclade). L-804 formed 15,000 years ago, but nearly went extinct after coming to Europe. Its TMRCA is only 3,000 years old. It might have been present in the Volga-Ural and Finland before that but only one individual survived in Scandinavia and became the ancestor of all Q-L804 today.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 02-03-17 at 11:27.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Thanks. As expected, the offshoot of eastern(?) Yamnaya.
    Some reconstruction:

    Afanasevo Culture


    Bol'shemysskaya Culture


    Okunevo Culture

    I cannot rely on these reconstructions but the Bolshemysskaya skull (so reliable!) has a strong 'borrebylike' aspect more on the western 'cromagnoid' model (top of skull, orbits proportions and shape, nose aperture and profile; maybe the cheekbones are a bit forwards?, not sure, the drawing is not to faithfull to the crania profile aside him -
    shall we found among bigger samples some rare Y-I2a(2)???

    the mt-DNA can abuse us: if it has been a first strong input of bunches of east-asian females, but after that only additions of new west-eurasian males, the auDNA, if 50/50 at first, could reverse quickly enough to majority of westeurasian DNA, keeping the deep mark of east-asian DNA because transmitted only by mums to their children: a not too fool hypothesis; this dychotomy between Hg, Y or mt, compared to auDNA, when complicated contacts/absorbtions of pops have occurred, has been discussed here and there before -
    in Slavs it seems the contrary occurred: after crossings and come back West, the new introductions of western females can have erased ancient east-asian (weak enough) mt-DNA,all that giving the impression of "purity" spite some east-asian auDNA is found (weaker yet, of course).

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Surely you know, a tree is not a wood - 2 among how much tested? that's the question; and we don't know if EDAR was not present long ago among central Eurasians before a specialization very stronger among future 'mongoloids'? Some Scandinavians HGs had EDAR; did they inherited it from crossings with far East-Asians or only from deep ancestry from Central Asia before genic redistributions?
    a (pheno)type is constituted by the concentration in a pop of some statistically dominant traits, dense here, absent or very rare in other pops - this racialization process, never complete among too mobile humans, put some people to believe the presence of a rare supposed "exotic" trait among a pop is the sign of more or less recent crossings between well formed types; it's often the case, but sometimes this traits are ancient enough and inherited before the process of partial "racialization" has begun -
    that said I don't see why a few crossings would not have occurred in the far eastern Steppes at those times, even if the input was weak...

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