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Thread: Scythian DNA

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Scythian DNA

    it's a good end of the week

    after Altaïan and Estonian, now Scythian mtDNA

    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615#t1




    black is Scythian


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    this is the most interesting conclusion :
    multiregional model is prefered, although western model can't be excluded

    Scythian uniformity through cultural exchanges

    and eastern Scythian continuity into Turkic tribes

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's a good end of the week

    after Altaïan and Estonian, now Scythian mtDNA

    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615#t1




    black is Scythian

    It seems that the percent of "Caucasus" here is similar to the Haak/Lazaridis model, and they find it all the way back in Samara_Eneolithic, although it increased by the time of Yamnaya and Poltavka.


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    I have kits of 3 IA Steppe guys. Do we have more in GedMatch?

    M348213 i0247 F999969 Rise607 F999965 Rise902
    scythian Altai, Russia, Verh-Uimon, 2kya Russia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai 2kya
    Run time 11.07 Run time 11.91 Run time 9.23
    S-Indian 0.67 S-Indian - S-Indian 0.92
    Baloch 24.99 Baloch 18.57 Baloch 19.12
    Caucasian 7.68 Caucasian 1.12 Caucasian 7.36
    NE-Euro 45.27 NE-Euro 29.87 NE-Euro 32.39
    SE-Asian 0.83 SE-Asian 0.97 SE-Asian 0.28
    Siberian 6.39 Siberian 20.18 Siberian 22.17
    NE-Asian 1.31 NE-Asian 11.59 NE-Asian 6.52
    Papuan - Papuan 1.39 Papuan -
    American 2.85 American 4.06 American 4.3
    Beringian 1.40 Beringian 5.05 Beringian 4.25
    Mediterranean 8.62 Mediterranean 6.6 Mediterranean 1.18
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 0.59 W-African 1.52

    Anybody knows where is the Scythian sample from and how old it is?
    Do we have Pazyryk kit?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

    "
    The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."


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    The same was said about ANI as well. That it's from Yamnaya, not the latter steppe cultures.

    *EDIT* my comment was contained in Angela's tweet quote.

    We have early Yamnaya expansion evidence all over the place. This is really interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

    "
    The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."
    I think she said it on the condition that okunevo and karasuk also have an admixture of yamna and east Eurasian. However, okunevo people was directly connected to malta, being more archaic than yamna/ afanasievo people.


    We should consider anthropoly and archaeology also,
    Actually east scythian was related with raindeer people.
    see this scythian artifact, which the horse wore at that time.



    Of course, they were related with afanasievo culture in Altai, b/c scythian elite had elomgated skulls like afanasievo's. We can ask another question of whether the afanasievo was an elite group.

    But anthropologically they resemble Okunevo and karasuks.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...o-yamna-or-not (post #18)
    Moreover, I think the east scythian genetic admixture is close to okunevo and karasuk than yamna/ afanasievo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

    "
    The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."
    the Yamnayans were ousted from the steppe by Sintashta, but some pockets of eastern Yamna must have survived here and there
    actually full Yamnayans, not just some Yamna DNA diluted into Sintashta DNA
    hence R1b-Z2103 still surviving today
    hence Tochars found in the Tarim basin
    maybe eastern Scythians originated in some remote Altaï valley from a lost Yamna tribe
    if I recall well, the Pazyrik were one of the oldest Scythians found

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    Wait a minute here. Look at the early Sarmatian samples. They look like Andronovo/Srubnaya with some Siberian, so Iranian speaking steppe are descended from both Yamnaya and latter steppe.

    In other words Indo-Iranian has surely been spoken on the steppe since Yamnaya.

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    If it comes to admixtures. A case could be made that Scythian was made by 70% Andronovo, 15% of some Siberian population (which we don't have sample yet), and 15% Iranian Neolithic. Iranian Neolithic, could be actually something similar, offshoot of Iranian Farmers, who lived in BMAC. Andronovo had very intense contact with BMAC farmers.

    0.7 0.15 0.15
    M608028 RISE505 M937770 I1671 Model Scytian M348213 i0247
    Andronovo Unknown Siberian Iran Late Neolithic 7,000 scythian
    Run time 13.24 Run time 0 Run time 5.12 Run time Run time 11.07
    S-Indian 0.54 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 2.64 S-Indian 0.77 S-Indian 0.67
    Baloch 21.23 Baloch 5 Baloch 56.25 Baloch 24.05 Baloch 24.99
    Caucasian 2.4 Caucasian 0 Caucasian 32.91 Caucasian 6.62 Caucasian 7.68
    NE-Euro 56.39 NE-Euro 36 NE-Euro 0 NE-Euro 44.87 NE-Euro 45.27
    SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.83
    Siberian 1.93 Siberian 35 Siberian 0 Siberian 6.60 Siberian 6.39
    NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 6 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0.90 NE-Asian 1.31
    Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan - Papuan -
    American 1.05 American 14 American 0 American 2.84 American 2.85
    Beringian 1.22 Beringian 4 Beringian 0 Beringian 1.45 Beringian 1.4
    Mediterranean 14.37 Mediterranean 0 Mediterranean 0 Mediterranean 10.06 Mediterranean 8.62
    SW-Asian 0 SW-Asian 0 SW-Asian 8 SW-Asian 1.20 SW-Asian -
    San 0 San 0 San 0 San - San -
    E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.06 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0.21 Pygmy 0.07 Pygmy -
    W-African 0.81 W-African 0 W-African 0 W-African 0.57 W-African -
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Wait a minute here. Look at the early Sarmatian samples. They look like Andronovo/Srubnaya with some Siberian, so Iranian speaking steppe are descended from both Yamnaya and latter steppe.

    In other words Indo-Iranian has surely been spoken on the steppe since Yamnaya.
    I have posted some comments about this on Eurogenes.

    I will copy-paste them here.

    The appearance of the Turkic language is very recent but the genetic signature of them is more ancient and goes far into early Iron Age. Simply because allot of the Western Turkic groups are basically turkified Iranic tribes.

    Take a note, the article even states the Eastern Scythians were most similar to Kipchaks. Kipchaks are amnong the most West Eurasian like groups among Turkic speakers infact since decades scientist argue that Kipchaks are basically turkified Scythians.

    Also interesting how the study points out most genetic similarity to Central Asians and Caucasians for West Scythians which again proves my point that when most Indo_Iranian tribes emerged they were already heavily mixed with more CHG/Iran_Neo like groups from cultures like the BMAC. In fact the origin of the Scythians seems to be the southern parts of the Andronovo culture close to Yaz culture. Thats also where Greek sources point to where Scythians came from. It's pity that they have no Anatolian_Neo sample to compare with. Some of "WHG" in Iron AGE Adygei and Russia is most likely Anatolian_Neo derived.

    Also the study pretty much confirmed by we all should know. Scythians were basically West Eurasian with some East Eurasian admixture towards the East. And they appear like one uniform group debunking allot of biased theories about their origin being mixed or them being some kind of multi-culti group mixed of Iranics, Uralics, Turkics, Slavs. The opposite is the case they have been absorbed by some Turkics, Uralics, and Slavs but their origin is clear visibly Iranic.
    The paper is bad in expressing itself but it basically confirms that the whole Steppe was quite homogenous(relative for such a huge territory) what can be explained with the uniformity of their material culture. Uniformity of material culture => one culture => one people. If they were a multi-culti groups they would not have a uniform culture. They simply had the typical neighboring admixtures that you would expect to get through contact.

    also striking that the paper actually says that the Eastern Scythians resembled Kipchaks while today these guys live in the Western Steppes near the Caucasus. Whle the Western Scythians resembled Caucasians and Central Asians. Just shows you how much the Steppes have shifted towards East Eurasian DNA throughout the time. Which is also confirmed by the paper and as we all know by historic accounts.

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    The Scythians themselves would be derived from a Srubnaya like culture. Infact East Iranic tribes as a whole show more genetic similarities to Srubna/Yaz culture than Andronovo or Sintashta. We need to change our understanding of Indo_Iranians. Since years I have been arguing that the Indo_Iranians do not derive from one single culture (Sintashta) but a network/complex of cultures. Sintashta/Andronovo seem to be early reflections of some very ancient nowadays extinct Indo_Iranian branches. The Srubna and/or Yaz culture seem to be the origin of most East Iranic branches while West Iranic branches seem to have evolved out of a merging of Yaz and Kura Araxes elements.

    And yet again another kick in the teeth of people still claiming Ossetians are "Iranified Caucasians". Once again I have been arguing with people that I expect that the R1b and G2a in Ossetians is Sarmatian derived but these people have always stubbornly and simplisticly been saying Sarmatians=R1a therefore Ossetians = Caucasian language shifters.

    But from the data we have collected so far the Sarmatians and, their subbranch, the Alans belonged to various Haplogroups such as G2a, R1a, J1, R1b, J2.

    Note a Sarmatian sample turned out with yDNA R1b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The paper basically speaks of Yamnaya like ancestry with East Asian admixture.

    The fact that all the Scythic groups had some East Eurasian ancestry also points to an more Eastern point of origin for the Scythic groups which is in the southern parts of Andronovo complex close to Yaz culture as pointed out by ancient Greeks.

    And bout the figure 7 The light blue component seems to be a West and East Eurasian mixed component modeled after modern Central Asians.

    According to the study West Scythian ancestry is strongest in groups from the Caucasus, West Asia and some East Europeans. From their samples Azeris, Iranians, Adygei, Lezgians and some other group from Russia share most with the West Scythians. While East Scythians look most similar to Tajiks, Kipchaks and Uzbeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I have posted some comments about this on Eurogenes.

    I will copy-paste them here.
    "Simply because allot of the Western Turkic groups are basically turkified Iranic tribes. "

    Thanks god, some truth...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Alan

    It seems You were correct when You where saying that Sintashta was a dead end.

    Btw that R1b belongs to Yamna/Poltavka Z2108 lineage. I suppose in Iran there will be a lot off it today. Unfortunatly Iran is not well sampled.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Sintashta was a dead end.
    As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Do they carried R1a Z94?I've read about Sarmatians:

    In a study conducted in 2014 by Gennady Afanasiev et al. on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be extracted from a total of 7. [clarification needed][23][clarification needed]
    In 2015, the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted research on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from the 4th to 6th century AD turned out to belong to yDNA haplogroups G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while two of the three Sarmatian samples from the 2nd to 3rd century AD were found to belong to yDNA haplogroup J1-M267 while one belonged to R1a.[24] Three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from the 8th to 9th century AD turned out to have yDNA corresponding to haplogroups G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#Genetics
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    As an aside, this is also what Gramkelidze, Ivanov & Grigoryev (the latter of whom wrote a huge tome on Sintashta-Arkaim) stated decades ago. I never knew what to make of it.
    Didn't knew that already Gramkelidze, Ivanov and co were saying the same. But Sintashta looks like a dead end, maybe playing some role for modern Indo_Aryans culturally or they were related to Indo_Aryans since their costumes were similar going by the Veda. However the genetic signature of Indo_Aryans points to an more Iran_Neo than Anatolian_Neo like contribution. Which is the reason why Lazaridis says a Yamnaya like group being the origin for the admixture in South_Central Asia makes more. Therefore Sintashta seems to be some early extension of an Indo_Iranian culture that died out for most.
    Last edited by Alan; 05-03-17 at 17:42.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Didn't knew that already Gramkelidze, Ivanov and co were saying the same. But Sintashta looks like an dead end, maybe playing some role for modern Indo_Aryans culturally or they were related to Indo_Aryans since their costumes were similar going by the Veda. However the genetic signature of Indo_Aryans points to an more Iran_Neo l than Anatolian_Neo like oontribution. Which is the reason why Lazaridis says a Yamnaya like group being the origin for the admixture in South_Central Asia makes more. Therefore Sintashta seems to be some early extension of an Indo_Iranian culture that died out for most.
    I agree that it seems like a dead end, the Andronovo horizon as a whole perhaps, which is ironic given the time and energy that was expended trying to create fits for India using them.



    This is what ADMIXTURE looks like when you know how to use it, i.e. you go from the actual ancient genome, i.e. CHG, not like that strange Willerslev group run.

    Fwiw, we had some arguments about Gramkelidze here on this site where I said that there was a lot in his work which needed to be considered, but it wasn't a very popular idea with anyone but me.

    Interesting that the eastern Scythians are closest to modern Kipchaks, and western Scythians to people of the Caucasus.

    I think some people may have missed that Lazaridis is one of the authors of this study.


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    in this admixture graph Andronovo looks like lost in BA Altaï and Scythian
    but Indian anciant DNA is lacking to judge the situation over there, same for Iranian Medes & Persians

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    Remember my map? Remember my thread? a Few people were making fun of it, but who laughs the last now?
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-unnatural-gap

    It is almost like if I had the ancient DNA at hand when I made this.



    I knew Sarmatians would close with Caucasus groups but more Northern shifted towards East Europe. In fact it seems some Sarmatian groups even overlap with Caucasus tribes and some of them likely overlap as far south as almost reaching modern Kurdish or North Iranian aDNA.


    We should also note that allot of what the scientists of this paper consider as "West Scythian" are in fact Sarmatians. This is why they come to the conclusion that both groups have similar but yet different point of origin. It should be well known by now that Sarmatians were related but not descend from Scythians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree that it seems like a dead end, the Andronovo horizon as a whole perhaps, which is ironic given the time and energy that was expended trying to create fits for India using them.



    This is what ADMIXTURE looks like when you know how to use it, i.e. you go from the actual ancient genome, i.e. CHG, not like that strange Willerslev group run.

    Fwiw, we had some arguments about Gramkelidze here on this site where I said that there was a lot in his work which needed to be considered, but it wasn't a very popular idea with anyone but me.

    Interesting that the eastern Scythians are closest to modern Kipchaks, and western Scythians to people of the Caucasus.

    I think some people may have missed that Lazaridis is one of the authors of this study.
    We should also take into account that the light blue component in the graph is neither completely West nor East Eurasian. It seems they have modeled it after Bronze Age Altains or even modern Central Asians, this is why no proxy population for it is visible on the graph. It is extremely unlikely that Iron Age Adygei or Russia was so heavy in East Eurasian admixture. If we assume the light blue is modeled after the regions mentioned above, this makes it roughly ~40-50% West Eurasian and 50-60% East Eurasian. That would make Russia_IA (what I assume is East Scythian) around ~15% East Eurasian and would explain why Kipchak and Tajiks/Uzbeks (all of them having around 10-25% East Eurasian DNA) the closest match.

    Payzyrk is the most East Eurasian shifted one with around ~40% East Eurasian aDNA.
    Last edited by Alan; 08-03-17 at 02:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    in this admixture graph Andronovo looks like lost in BA Altaï and Scythian
    but Indian anciant DNA is lacking to judge the situation over there, same for Iranian Medes & Persians
    Sorry, Bicicleur, I don't know what the bolded part means.

    I agree that we can't come to any real conclusions until we have that big Caucasus paper and the Harappa genes and other Indian dna. However, given that Lazaridis and Reich are authors here, and the Reich Lab is producing that big Caucasus/Central Asian paper, perhaps we can be excused for seeing the paper and the tweet as hints of things to come.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Do they carried R1a Z94?I've read about Sarmatians:
    The Late Scythian population considered in this study proved to be genetically homogeneous, although some connections with the Sarmatians were found. We also revealed similarities between the Scythian groups and the local Bronze Age population of the Srubnaya culture, as well as, to a lesser extent, a group representative of the Central Asian Bronze Age Okunevo culture.

    -srubna cranial series are exteremly close to Afanasievo, not yamna.

    - Mixing all type of women, I think, Central asian nomad cherished and kept their culture, thousand and thousand years. Nomad people’s hair mode was their pride, which has been continued from Indo-Aryan, scythian, samathian and Hun. Mongol also did this culture. It is not important for their bodies just to be changed by mixing with east asian. The important thing is their royal Hg is R and Q, keeping ANE tradition of shamanism. The basic philosophy of the shamanism is that the human was produced from father sky and mother earth. So they tried not to cultivate the earth of mother.

    sarmatian crown


    central asian shaman's

    sarmatian Kazakhstan, 1st century


    -keep in mind that the scythians were also cromagnon type or paleo-europoid type.

    Paleo
    race ( paleo type , proto-European type ( race ), the northern race , severoevropeoidny type , kromanidny type) is characterized by a massive face , brahikefaliey , large ( acting ) nose , massive physique ,svetlopigmentirovannostyu ( that is, hair , eyes , skin .). [3] The origin of the type associated with the Cro-Magnon, [4][5] are typical representatives of this race were representatives Afanasiev archaeological culture (III - beginning of IIthousand. BC. E.), Tagar culture (VIII - IIIcenturies. BC. E .), Andronovo culture ( 2300 to n . e -. 1000 to the n . e ),the pit culture ( 3600 - 2300 up to n . e ). carcass cultures ( 1700 - 1200 cc . to n . Oe .), the Scythian populationPazyryk culture
    http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/668438

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    sorry, I didn't express that clear
    in Karasuk, Okunevo, Scythian the EEF-like component is practicaly gone
    as it is present in the Andronovo horizon, Karasuk, Okunevo, Scythian seem not to be derived from Andronovo but from the Yamna horizon which didn't have EEF

    do you know when we could expect the Caucasus & Harappa paper?
    and then, I'm also awaiting the Bell Beaker paper ..

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