The Genetic History of Northern Europe - Another Begemoth DNA study on Baltics

[holderlin]

archeology said Kunda and Narva were Swiderian-derived
untill all that R1a and R1b was found

I don't know that the two facts are exclusive to each other. A good example would be Dneiper Donets and Samara. One is almost all EHG, yet the other is WHG during the same time. The archaeology is virtually indistinguishable.

All of these new papers on the Baltic are supportive of what appears to be a significant degree of cultural homogeneity from Scandinavia to the Urals during the Mesolithic. "Kunda-Swiderian" is more valid than ever. We have shared male and female lines all over the place and shared lithics. The only autosomal differences appear to be varying amounts of ANE.

 

[Tomenable]

theories of blonde nordics seeding bronze age non-european civilizations can't be correct

I have never heard about such theories* of blonde nordics seeding Non-European civilizations, except for Indo-Iranians. And in the case of Indo-Iranians these theories actually seem to be correct, based on SNPs from Andronovo-Sintashta.

===============

*I'm not counting Genetiker and his "wee hwuites wuz Inca kangz in Peru" claims.

 

[holderlin]

OK, so to be clear, LCT is an example of positive selection. This is not a controversial "theory".

@firehaired and @markoz are confused as to what exactly they are arguing about.

I blame MarkoZ

 

[Angela]

Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."

 

[holderlin]

Tweet from Iosif Lazaridis:

"The Scythians of the eastern steppe were seemingly derived from Yamnaya and East Eurasian ancestors And not from temporally closer Sintashta/Andronovo populations that carried EEF ancestry Similar to present-day South Asians who are best modelled with Early/Middle Bronze Age steppe not Andronovo/Sintashta."

The more I consider this the more interesting it becomes to me, and it makes perfect sense looking at the vast expanse of Yamnaya/Afanasevo. Sintashta and Andronovo are a thousand years later and they look like latter expansions of CWC that brought Central Euro autosomes with them.

ANI and Iranians would then be direct descendants of Yamnaya, rather than latter steppe cultures. Yamnaya spoke Indic, not PIE.

 

[johen]

The more I consider this the more interesting it becomes to me, and it makes perfect sense looking at the vast expanse of Yamnaya/Afanasevo. Sintashta and Andronovo are a thousand years later and they look like latter expansions of CWC that brought Central Euro autosomes with them.

ANI and Iranian would then be direct ancestors of Yamnaya, rather than latter steppe cultures. Yamnaya spoke Indic, not PIE.

I think it was impossible, b/c broze age steppe people was classified with Paleo-type people, so called cromagnoid. It means their head size was bigger than now.

3,000year ago the Afakan-indian type skulls were found in human sacrifice pit of shang dynasty in China, which are small like now:

 

[holderlin]

I think it was impossible, b/c broze age steppe people was classified with Paleo-type people, so called cromagnoid. It means their head size was bigger than now.

3,000year ago the Afakan-indian type skulls were found in human sacrifice pit of shang dynasty in China, which are small like now:

I don't quite know what you're getting at, but I edited that post. "Ancestors" was a mistake. I meant "descendants".

 

[holderlin]

Originally Posted by holderlin
The more I consider this the more interesting it becomes to me, and it makes perfect sense looking at the vast expanse of Yamnaya/Afanasevo. Sintashta and Andronovo are a thousand years later and they look like latter expansions of CWC that brought Central Euro autosomes with them.

ANI and Iranian would then be direct descendants of Yamnaya, rather than latter steppe cultures. Yamnaya spoke Indic, not PIE.

 

[MOESAN]

MtDna has a very profound impact on "fitness" and "health", so much so that there was a concern that in places like the U.S. where pre-existing conditions or hereditary traits could make acquiring health insurance difficult, people should be wary of making their complete mtDna genome public.

This 2015 paper provides a good summary of the mitochondria and its role in these matters

See:
https://academic.oup.com/humupd/art...tionary-defined-role-of-the-mitochondrial-DNA

"mitochondrial evolutionary mechanisms have had a profound effect on human adaptation, fertility, healthy reproduction, mtDNA disease manifestation and transmission and ageing. An understanding of these mechanisms might elucidate novel approaches for treatment and prevention of mtDNA disease."

I hate the title of this, but whatever...

See: Mother's curse: the effect of mtDNA on individual fitness and population viability.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16701262

"there is increasing evidence that mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is an important contributor to viability and fecundity. Some of this evidence is now well documented, with mtDNA mutations having been shown to play a causal role in degenerative diseases, ageing, and cancer. However, most research on mtDNA has ignored the possibility that other instances exist where mtDNA mutations could have profound fitness consequences. Recent work in humans and other species now indicates that mtDNA mutations play an important role in sperm function, male fertility, and male fitness. Ironically, deleterious mtDNA mutations that affect only males, such as those that impair sperm function, will not be subject to natural selection because mitochondria are generally maternally inherited and could reach high frequencies in populations if the mutations are not disadvantageous in females. "

MtDna "H", in particular, has been associated with increased resistance to sepsis, which is a huge deal in a world without antibiotics, and also with increased resistance to viral infections, including AIDS. That's why I have speculated for a long time on these boards and even on the old dna forums that mtDna frequencies may be the result of selection, especially in periods of extreme stress, as in the face of plague, which has been a repeated scourge.

See:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699618/

My U2e seems to rather be a loser in this regard, probably contributing to the fact that it is now so rare.

As for natural selection in terms of both skin pigmentation and lactase persistence, the papers are too numerous to post. Anybody interested can easily find them using the search engine.

Just generally, we see these de-pigmentation snps popping up here and there, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the place that suddenly seems to sprout a number of them all together should be in a place in Europe with very low levels of sunlight. The same thing happened in northern East Asia, although they have their own snps, not associated with SLC 24A5 or 42A5, for example.

Anyway, that doesn't mean that once present in a population in good numbers it wouldn't have spread with that population or that selection is only natural when it's probably social as well. There are a lot of factors involved.

I also have a hunch, although that's all it is, that LP and de-pigmentation are somehow connected in later periods. You need Vitamin D to process dairy if I understand it correctly, so having pale skin in a low light environment would be very beneficial.

Ed. @Fire-Haired,
I agree with you generally, but pre-steppe arrival people of central Europe were not "dark skinned". Remember the Gamba et al paper, and Otzi even further south with both his copies of derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5. Also remember the people in Neolithic Anatolia who also had both derived copies. It's just that it wasn't in the high percentages of later periods.

I don't think this all happened in the Bronze Age to Iron Age. I think it's been an ongoing process. However, I also don't think this is all the result of migrations.

Interesting and I agree for the most -
but concerning depigmentation, the latitude doesn't seem the only factor because we see very southern 'caucasoid' pops having very high % of the derived alleles too, spite in sunny lands (even without serious IE input)- the super-depigmentation (+ hair and eyes colour) only seems separating North and South as a whole, so I'm still a bit puzzled concerning not the reality fo selection, but its mode

 

[Fire Haired14]

@MarkoZ,

You're right we shouldn't assume that two populations who are similar genetically similar also have similar frequencies in phenotype related SNPs. Narva and Western European HGs are a good example. But...when the same phenotype SNPs are popular across all of modern Europe, among populations who are pretty different genetically, and were rare in all samples from earlier Europeans who are modern Europeans' ancestors, natural selection is the only explanation.

mHG H may be popular everywhere in Europe because of migration. I feel less strongly about natural selection favoring mHG H that than I do about natural selection favoring depigmentation and lactose persistence. The Eastern Baltic specifically may have a lot of light skin and lactose persistence because of migration but IMO that's certainly not the case for all of Europe. And if they're popular in the Eastern Baltic because of migration, the ancestors of Bronze age Eastern Balts who lived somewhere else in Europe had a high frequency of those phenotype traits because of natural selection.

Academically speaking this is an example of selection, technically, especially with LCT, but when you throw in the complexity of human consciousness->culture it begs more questions.

Agreed.

I think what you're getting at in your earlier post was that LCT was the real gene being selected for by "nature", and that this may have been passed around through light featured women of mt H? Is that right? I can buy this.

mtDNA and color are unrelated. Once genomes from all over Late Neolithic and Bronze age Europe are sequenced we'll know what happened. The data we have from Iron age England indicates depigmentation mutations rose in frequency in the last 2,000 years, and could explain why Tacitus said some British tribes are swarthy and some were fair.

 

[Tone]

The data we have from Iron age England indicates depigmentation mutations rose in frequency in the last 2,000 years, and could explain why Tacitus said some British tribes are swarthy and some were fair.

First off, I have no idea if it's natural selection or founder/population replacement that is driving lighter skin in Europe, but here's something to consider about England: Yes it's true that the English have become depigmented over the past two thousand years (and more), but also England has been invaded and settled numerous times by peoples from Germany/Scandinavia during this time. The first we know of were the Anglos, Saxons, and Jutes in 400 AD from the Netherlands up through Denmark. In 800 AD, England was again invaded and settled by immigrants from Scandinavia (the Dane Law lands). Then again in 1066 England was invaded by the Normans from France, who were descended from Scandinavian settlers a century earlier. And these were just the invasions during historical times. There were probably others from the Bronze Age up through 1 AD.

Anyhow my point is that England appears to become depigmented over time. However, it was invaded by genetically similar, yet most likely fairer, people in several mass waves over the past several millennium. And because the immigrants were extremely similar genetically, it only seems that natural selection is going on. And yes, there might be some natural selection going on (ie "My Fair Lady" or "Who's the fairest one of all?") but most likely it was invasion that brought the depigmentation genes to England en mass, and in a similar way, to all of Europe over the past thousand years. Maybe it's a classic 80/20 thing, meaning 80% invasion/replacement and 20% selection.

Again, I'm just a layman on an internet forum so I don't know. It's just fun to theorize. :wary2:

 

[Ukko]

Ironically the Finns and Estonians are the fairest.

 

[LeBrok]

First off, I have no idea if it's natural selection or founder/population replacement that is driving lighter skin in Europe, but here's something to consider about England: Yes it's true that the English have become depigmented over the past two thousand years (and more), but also England has been invaded and settled numerous times by peoples from Germany/Scandinavia during this time. The first we know of were the Anglos, Saxons, and Jutes in 400 AD from the Netherlands up through Denmark. In 800 AD, England was again invaded and settled by immigrants from Scandinavia (the Dane Law lands). Then again in 1066 England was invaded by the Normans from France, who were descended from Scandinavian settlers a century earlier. And these were just the invasions during historical times. There were probably others from the Bronze Age up through 1 AD.

Anyhow my point is that England appears to become depigmented over time. However, it was invaded by genetically similar, yet most likely fairer, people in several mass waves over the past several millennium. And because the immigrants were extremely similar genetically, it only seems that natural selection is going on. And yes, there might be some natural selection going on (ie "My Fair Lady" or "Who's the fairest one of all?") but most likely it was invasion that brought the depigmentation genes to England en mass, and in a similar way, to all of Europe over the past thousand years. Maybe it's a classic 80/20 thing, meaning 80% invasion/replacement and 20% selection.

Again, I'm just a layman on an internet forum so I don't know. It's just fun to theorize. :wary2:

No problem with this. I also noted that Bronze Estonians could have been a replacement population, however it couldn't have come from far away. The epicenter of white mutations/migration/consolidation and LP seems to be around Baltic Sea.

 

[MOESAN]

First off, I have no idea if it's natural selection or founder/population replacement that is driving lighter skin in Europe, but here's something to consider about England: . And because the immigrants were extremely similar genetically, it only seems that natural selection is going on. And yes, there might be some natural selection going on (---) but most likely it was invasion that brought the depigmentation genes to England en mass, and in a similar way, to all of Europe over the past thousand years. Maybe it's a classic 80/20 thing, meaning 80% invasion/replacement and 20% selection.

Again, I'm just a layman on an internet forum so I don't know. It's just fun to theorize. :wary2:

I agree: it' always the problem of geneticians studying several pops in the same place but in different times and calculating "natural selection" (as you said it exists) over an ideal pop that never eixsted because the different times saw different pops, at least in part - it recalls me the American surveys about Americans citizens evolution considering the pre-cow-boys times pops as identical to today USA citizens: rubbish -
that said ir seems to me that very often people mix the blond/bue/pinky question with the more spred fair skin principal mutations -
I think that if fair skin had so much success it's because it was genetically (chromosomes) or individually (chromose statistically "linked" to mtDA by instance) linked to other davantages than the only solar exposure question (since a long time human beings had found solutions to sun problems - what % of skin surface is exposed? - and we have only to look at Fire Land Indians or Inuits to understand this) - and today North-Africans are a melting pot with a lot of SSA females, same question with Yemenites - if a survey studied today French citizens without origins discrimination, what could they find for natural selection evolution in time?

 

[Angela]

I think the point of the chart which I posted upthread and which had pigmentation snps for the ancient inhabitants of Baltic area is being missed. Even after the arrival of the Corded Ware types, pigmentation was very variable in the area, with some of the samples not possessing the most common de-pigmentation snps even in the Bronze Age.

I know of no invasion of "fairer" people into the Baltics which can explain the change to modern frequencies that occurred at the earliest in the Iron Age and perhaps even later.

 

[berun]

@Firehaired, you use to make conclusions with partial data, so you don't get the real pictrure (if it's that what you look at). IIRC some 30-40% individuals from Ante Portam Latinam in the Basque Country had LT. They were Calco people...........

 

[Angela]

@Firehaired, you use to make conclusions with partial data, so you don't get the real pictrure (if it's that what you look at). IIRC some 30-40% individuals from Ante Portam Latinam in the Basque Country had LT. They were Calco people...........

Indeed, if those results are correct, the ancient Balts do not have the highest incidence. We still don't know when LP first expanded or its track.

 

[Ukko]

I think the point of the chart which I posted upthread and which had pigmentation snps for the ancient inhabitants of Baltic area is being missed. Even after the arrival of the Corded Ware types, pigmentation was very variable in the area, with some of the samples not possessing the most common de-pigmentation snps even in the Bronze Age.

I know of no invasion of "fairer" people into the Baltics which can explain the change to modern frequencies that occurred at the earliest in the Iron Age and perhaps even later.

View attachment 8540

The Uralic N males started breeding farms for the local women they took as concubines. They sold the end products called orja in to the European and world market.



Some Uralic humor for the conquering Indo-Europeans. :grin:



I have to wonder why the skin mutations are the biggest topic here, the historical and cultural impact of the late arriving of N raises much bigger questions.
But still, Finns and Estonians are the fairest. :grin:
Where is that "Polish Ragnar" when I so want him to be here..

 

[Angela]

The Uralic N males started breeding farms for the local women they took as concubines. They sold the end products called orja in to the European and world market.



Some Uralic humor for the conquering Indo-Europeans. :grin:



I have to wonder why the skin mutations are the biggest topic here, the historical and cultural impact of the late arriving of N raises much bigger questions.
But still, Finns and Estonians are the fairest. :grin:
Where is that "Polish Ragnar" when I so want him to be here..

If you think that's funny, you're mistaken.

If you think any of this pigmentation business is important, you're also mistaken about that.

A sense of pride in one's ancestors should come from an honest appraisal of their character and accomplishments, the things they've given to humanity. Of course, the first and most important source of pride should be what one has or will accomplish as a unique human being, and what kind of human being one will become.

 

[LeBrok]

If you think that's funny, you're mistaken.

If you think any of this pigmentation business is important, you're also mistaken about that.

A sense of pride in one's ancestors should come from an honest appraisal of their character and accomplishments, the things they've given to humanity. Of course, the first and most important source of pride should be what one has or will accomplish as a unique human being, and what kind of human being one will become.

Nail on a head, Angela!