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Thread: Paleolithic and Mesolithic migrations in Europe and Siberia

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    Paleolithic and Mesolithic migrations in Europe and Siberia



    map migrations-.jpg

    In the middle of Upper Paleolithic, there is migration groups of Eastern European Paleolithic in Siberia. There was found a clear "cultural-genetic" relationship between Gagarino, Avdeevo, Kostenki13, Zaraysk sites and Mal'ta-Buret'. (Okladnikov Anikovich, Lisitsyn). Later were found European-style sites in Urals. Unique European Paleolithic Siberia developed in parallel with the local forms of the Siberian Paleolithic. But about 17 000 years ago it has been completely replaced Asian Paleolithic, with typical Asian tools and instruments. (Lisitsyn)

    At the end of the Upper Paleolithic began warming and change of natural zones. Many cold-loving animals are moved to the north, such as deer,polar fox, endangered mammoth and so on. After them came and people. Survived populations final Palaeolithic of Eastern Europe began the familiarization coast of Ancylus Lake (now the Baltic Sea), the upper reaches of the Volga, and other previously inaccessible areas. There they met with the populations of Western European Paleolithic.

    With the disappearance of large herd animals and open landscape loses its meaning driving hunt. Smaller and mobile species that live in the forest zone, forcing a person to change the traditional way of hunting for the Paleolithic. There were small groups of hunters armed with bows and arrows, which appeared at the end of the Paleolithic era, probably in swiderian WHG culture. The oldest bow found in Denmark. This made it possible to hunt both the large and smaller single animals and birds.

    Water spaces has become very much, and a herd of hoofed animals is much less. The role of fishing was rising. This is confirmed by the findings of numerous instruments for fishing: hooks, harpoons, spears. At this time, there was invented a curved fishhook (direct existed in the Paleolithic). The most important achievement in the use of fishing nets were. But neither spear or rod could not provide a sufficient number of production. In the Baltic Mesolithic sites were finds the remnants of fishing nets. The peat bogs of Scandinavia known finds of fragments of fishing nets over 25m.

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    The problem of Mongoloid admixture in the Mesolithic Eastern Europe.


    The Mesolithic in Eastern Europe have a certain Mongoloid admixture. And in antropology and archeology source of this still unknown. This came from "nowhere".

    T. Alekseeva 1997:
    "The distinctive set of features - brachycephaly caused very large transverse diameter of the skull and is accompanied by a very broad, flat face with a slightly protruding nose.
    This was identified in three Eastern European populations:
    - Mesolithic population in Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov (my note: C1g, С1g)
    - Population Dnieper-Donets culture (my note: C, C4a2, C)

    - Tribes Pit-Comb Ware culture
    This anthropological type in Europe is an alien who does not have anything to do with the basic anthropological types of the territory.
    The undeniable analogies of this morphological form identified in Eastern Siberia"

    Here on the forum there have been suggestions that this is due to the migration R1a from Siberia. But such a conclusion seems premature to me. There is a certain correlation with the Mesolithic asiatic mt.DNA C in Karelia and Dnieper-Donets culture, which probably derived from from it. Perhaps it was the penetration of the small tribes of Siberia in the Mesolithic. These tribes have left a small admixture of the local population of the forest zone, and nothing more. If we assume that this was the dominant line R1a, it would be enormously affected to anthropology and material culture of the local populations. Culture would definitely acquired Asian features. But nothing happened like that and culture of mesolithic have european features. But such things are usually tracked and do not remain without a trace, such as the penetration of comb-ceramics tribes, which were carriers of sharply distinguished cultural traits.

    We need more Y DNA from the Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov to solve the mystery.
    And also from Eastern European Paleolithic. Until now, only 3(!) were tested. While about 50(!) from the rest of European paleolith. But Eastern European Paleolithic, probably a direct ancestor of the majority Europeans.

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    There were R1a in Mesolithic Baikal area, and as we don't know how they went there they could be an ancient population somehow related with Mal'ta, but yet Europoid. They could get some Eastern admixture there and spread back to Europe with the new EHG genes. Even they could have spread over an older R1a HG European population. With so few samples it's difficult to track all it and dates available allow many hypotheses; I must keep open doors.

    Even so, surely such C people didn't came from Siberia alone.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    There were R1a in Mesolithic Baikal area, and as we don't know how they went there they could be an ancient population somehow related with Mal'ta, but yet Europoid. They could get some Eastern admixture there and spread back to Europe with the new EHG genes. Even they could have spread over an older R1a HG European population. With so few samples it's difficult to track all it and dates available allow many hypotheses; I must keep open doors.

    Even so, surely such C people didn't came from Siberia alone.
    By that time, 10,000 years ago, Siberia no longer had European populations or a European cultural tradition. The centers of the European cultural tradition fade 17,000 years ago, and replaced by a local Asian Paleolithic. Although probably some connections with Europe remained for several thousand years.

    Very little information about the Kitoi culture, where R1a was found. But judging by this info, it was a culture with an Asian cultural tradition. A "Protomongoloid" type is noted. It is also partially ancestral for Glazkovo culture. Glazkovo culture is ancestral for Evenks and Tungus-Manchus.

    Also, a set of haplo from the burial of a Lokomotiv and Shamanka does not look like a Europoid population:
    Y-DNA: 2xR1a, 3xK, C3
    Mt.DNA: 2xA, 2xD, 3xF, G2a, U5a

    It looks rather "Mongoloid" and probably these R1a and U5a are accidental echo of ancient migrations from Europe.
    But Alekseeva noted the similarity of Mongoloid skulls from the Mesolithic of Europe and some series of skulls from eastern Siberia. May be she had in mind these skulls from Lokomotiv and Shamanka burials. But I do not have such information. In general, everything is quite confusing so far.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Groups of hunter gatherers where not that numerous and Central Asia is extremely vast. There could have been always room for Europoid and Mongoloid types, together with mixed groups. This coexistence continues till today. In middle ages Mongolians and Turks dominated Central Asia, afterwards pendulum swung to Russia, and Caucasoids invaded Central Asia again.
    This is generally speaking of course. However, I would like to notice that from all the genetic samples that we have already, there is hardly any true Mongoloid genotype to be found. To be honest, there is also hardly full Caucasoid to be found (as we know them today), except perhaps guys immediately after Yamaya expansion.

    For example, the oldest types, genetically don't resemble anyone we know. They are archaic, pre Caucasoid and pre Mongoloid, before they evolved into races. As we can see they contain equal proportions of all admixtures. They had lived so far apart but their admixtures were so similar, like cousins.

    F999935 K-M526 T732095 Oase1
    Ust'-Ishim, Siberia 45kya Romania, Central Balkans 40kya
    Run time 21.09 Run time 4.52
    S-Indian 26.72 S-Indian 26.35
    Baloch 8.4 Baloch 6.99
    Caucasian - Caucasian 2.19
    NE-Euro 6.51 NE-Euro 16.81
    SE-Asian 12.11 SE-Asian 14.75
    Siberian 2.05 Siberian 0.22
    NE-Asian 3.84 NE-Asian 1.21
    Papuan 10.9 Papuan 9.3
    American 1.13 American -
    Beringian 2.7 Beringian -
    Mediterranean 8.14 Mediterranean 7.61
    SW-Asian 4.65 SW-Asian 2.94
    San 2.44 San 5.62
    E-African 7.27 E-African 3.02
    Pygmy 1.74 Pygmy -
    W-African 1.39 W-African 2.99


    Now 20k years later we can notice bigger diversification between these cousins. Mal'ta has a lot of Baloch and American, which are strictly Central Asian admixtures. Vestonice developed Med which is signature of populations from around Mediterranean Sea.

    F999914 R
    Vestonice, Czech 24Kya Mal'ta 24kya
    Run time Run time 8
    S-Indian 14.06 S-Indian 10.13
    Baloch 1.68 Baloch 24.09
    Caucasian - Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 41.3 NE-Euro 40.14
    SE-Asian 0.8 SE-Asian -
    Siberian 3.98 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 4.65 Papuan 0.7
    American 3.75 American 17.71
    Beringian - Beringian 6.74
    Mediterranean 23.93 Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian 2.99 SW-Asian -
    San 1.27 San 0.3
    E-African 0.42 E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy 0.19
    W-African 1.18 W-African -

    Then 15ky later, in Mesolithic, we have these guys:
    F999918 I-L460 M737081 M925976 AfontovaGora3+AfontovaGora2
    Loschbour, Luxembourg 7 kya Kvalinsk HG (I0122+I0124+I0433) 7 kya Afontova Gora in Syberia
    Run time 14.93 Run time 8.15 Run time 3.9
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch 20.2 Baloch 25.02
    Caucasian - Caucasian - Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 77.83 NE-Euro 71.08 NE-Euro 52.64
    SE-Asian 0.44 SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.84 Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American 6.89 American 20.01
    Beringian - Beringian 1.7 Beringian 1.91
    Mediterranean 20.66 Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.17 W-African 0.13 W-African 0.42

    I think that Kvalinsk is more related to Afontova Gora than to WHG. Seems like WHG came from different refugium after LGM than these other two, who maybe came from a common one. Afontova Gora had more American admixture and could have look a bit Mongoloid. Though, with all these samples I don't see true Mongoloid signature, which would have lots of NE Asian, SE Asian and Siberian admixtures.

    Here is modern people of Central/North Asia. Interestingly, there is lack of SE Asian component in Central Asia. SE Asians have never ventured too much North.

    S Indian Baloch Caucasian NE Euro SE Asian Siberian NE Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW Asian San E African Pygmy W African
    mongolian 1% 5% 5% 6% 0% 38% 39% 0% 1% 2% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    chukchi 0% 0% 1% 5% 0% 12% 0% 0% 1% 80% 1% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    kyrgyz 2% 8% 8% 11% 1% 30% 34% 0% 2% 2% 3% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    nganassan 0% 1% 1% 3% 0% 89% 1% 0% 0% 4% 1% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    This is generally speaking of course. However, I would like to notice that from all the genetic samples that we have already, there is hardly any true Mongoloid genotype to be found. To be honest, there is also hardly full Caucasoid to be found (as we know them today), except perhaps guys immediately after Yamaya expansion.

    For example, the oldest types, genetically don't resemble anyone we know. They are archaic, pre Caucasoid and pre Mongoloid, before they evolved into races. As we can see they contain equal proportions of all admixtures. They had lived so far apart but their admixtures were so similar, like cousins.
    Very good point. I think Russian anthropologists explained that way.

    Analysis of Neolithic and Eneolithic paleoanthropological materials in comparative aspect using available comparative data on synchronous cultures led to a very important conclusion that in the Neolithic Era and at the turn of Neolithic-Chalcolithic in the anthropological composition across Eurasia dominated morphological complexes with incomplete differentiation into consolidated Mongoloid and Caucasoid complexes of the main (geographical) races
    V. Bunak identified one of unconsolidated complexes in varying anthropological variations in the Eurasian north-western forest zone as a separate racial community, which he called “Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation” (Bunak, 1956, p. 101). To that anthropological community belong the Neolithic population groups of the Baraba steppe adjacent to the Altai-Sayan upland (Creek, Sopka-2/1). The area of the Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation enormous area: the main finds were obtained in the north-western (Onega lake, southern basin of the White Sea, Karelia, Baltics) and southeastern (northern Baraba) fringes, and also in the northern forest zone of the East European Plain (Pit–Comb Ware Cultural-Historical Community)
    Tatiana Chikisheva Dynamics of anthropological differentiation in South-Western Siberian population in Neolithic - Early Iron Age Professorial dissertation, Novosibirsk, 2010

    Craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate between Mongoloid and Caucasoid populations. Genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes. Such genetic uniformity over two or three millennia points to the absence of gene drift. Gene fl ow, resulting in the presence of both Western and Eastern mtDNA haplotypes in Gorny Altai, is evidenced only by the Early Iron Age people of the Pazyryk culture. The finding is supported by archaeological data (Molodin, 2003)
    A PALEOGENETIC STUDY OF THE PREHISTORIC POPULATIONS OF THE ALTAI
    T.A. Chikisheva1, M.A. Gubina2, I.V. Kulikov3, T.M. Karafet4, M.I. Voevoda3, and A.G. Romaschenko

    The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye, were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.
    A.G. Kozintsev, CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM* (2009)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    -
    Noticeably as between 40kya and 25kya, there has been a gradual differentiation of European population from all others, both cultural and genetic.
    By the way, there was Baloch in Afontova Gora?

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Very good point. I think Russian anthropologists explained that way.
    This is just an outdated view of Bunak. In 1960s there were really two opinions. Bunak, Yakimov believed that in Mesolithic was "a unique local population forms, without a Mongoloid admixture," as well as Uralic race is a unique form, without the participation of Mongoloids. While Alekseev and Co. claimed otherwise. Now the first opinion is not seriously considered. The Ural race was definitely is "mixed" and in the Mesolithic there was a penetration of Mongoloid populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Noticeably as between 40kya and 25kya, there has been a gradual differentiation of European population from all others
    That's right, and we can see strong affinity between East Europe and Siberia/Altay, that existed pretty much till Iron Age.


    By the way, there was Baloch in Afontova Gora?
    Looks like it. "Baloch" is one ancient Central-South component of Asia. Whatever this is it is called like this in HarappaWorld in GedMatch.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's right, and we can see strong affinity between East Europe and Siberia/Altay, that existed pretty much till Iron Age.
    Looks like it. "Baloch" is one ancient Central-South component of Asia. Whatever this is it is called like this in HarappaWorld in GedMatch.
    Possible that carriers of R brought Baloch to the Eastern European sites of mammonth hunters and replaced the old male lines about 30-25 kya, or it was admixed without R. Or Baloch was received only in Siberia. Althought, this is no more than guesses. We need a more Paleolithic DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    there is hardly any true Mongoloid genotype to be found.
    what is true Mongoloid then ?

    Bororo_American_Indian_Mongoloid.png

    Bororo Indian in Brazil
    her ancestors came from Siberia 16 ka
    she lives in the tropics, but she is adapted to the cold

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's right, and we can see strong affinity between East Europe and Siberia/Altay, that existed pretty much till Iron Age.


    Looks like it. "Baloch" is one ancient Central-South component of Asia. Whatever this is it is called like this in HarappaWorld in GedMatch.
    Not only East Europe, with the Tumulus and Urnfield also Central and Northwest Europe.


    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Possible that carriers of R brought Baloch to the Eastern European sites of mammonth hunters and replaced the old male lines about 30-25 kya, or it was admixed without R. Or Baloch was received only in Siberia. Althought, this is no more than guesses. We need a more Paleolithic DNA.
    The age of R and locations fit this scenario.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what is true Mongoloid then ?

    Bororo_American_Indian_Mongoloid.png

    Bororo Indian in Brazil
    her ancestors came from Siberia 16 ka
    she lives in the tropics, but she is adapted to the cold
    I think their might be 3 major types which separated 30 kya. The American/Siberian/Beringian, then NE Asian and SE Asian. The American, Siberian and Beringian probably since LGM.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think their might be 3 major types which separated 30 kya. The American/Siberian/Beringian, then NE Asian and SE Asian. The American, Siberian and Beringian probably since LGM.
    I think 30 ka Mongoloid split from west Eurasian, more or less along the line of the split between Q and R.
    We have evidence of human presence in Beringia just before and just after LGM (well, 14 ka), but I don't think there was continuity in Beringia during LGM, it seems to far north to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post

    This is just an outdated view of Bunak. In 1960s there were really two opinions. Bunak, Yakimov believed that in Mesolithic was "a unique local population forms, without a Mongoloid admixture," as well as Uralic race is a unique form, without the participation of Mongoloids. While Alekseev and Co. claimed otherwise. Now the first opinion is not seriously considered. The Ural race was definitely is "mixed" and in the Mesolithic there was a penetration of Mongoloid populations.
    As far as I know, Alekseyeva classified the mesolithic people of North East Europe as traditional caucasoid, even if they had the contradicting looks. It means she rejected the opinion that the mesolithic people were mixed with caucasoid amd mongolid.
    A significant contribution to the study of the early population history of Eastern Europe and of the origins
    of the contradictory trait combinations distributed on that territory was made by T.I. Alekseyeva. In a joint
    monograph describing the Neolithic cranial series from Sakhtysh in the Upper Volga area, she notes that certain
    European Mesolithic groups were characterized by large dimensions of the braincase and especially by its
    conspicuous height. The face was wide and relatively low and a flattened upper facial profile co-occurred with
    a sharp midfacial profile and sharply protruding nasal bones (Alekseyeva, 1997). In Alekseyeva’s words, this
    unusual trait combination, which was more than once revealed by multivariate statistics, was widely distributed
    and was typical of Mesolithic Caucasoids of the forest and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe as evidenced
    by groups such as Zvejnieki, Popovo, Southern Oleniy (Reindeer) Island, and Vasilievka I and III. In her words,
    there is no doubt that robustness and upper facial flatness were inherited from earlier Caucasoid populations of
    Eastern Europe (Ibid.: 26).
    1. Problem is same thing happened in the Altai, however, result by T. A. Chikisheva(2015) was different:
    Most physical anthropologists studying the prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai, too, believe that the key evolutionary factor was hybridization between Caucasoids and Mongoloids. However, human remains recently excavated in that territory suggest that at least in certain cases, intermediacy might have been caused by evolutionary conservatism, leading to unusual combinations of diagnostic traits. Thus, certain prehistoric cranial series from Gorny Altai are characterized by a broad face, equally flattened at the nasomalar and zygo-maxillary levels, convex nasal bones combined with a small nasal prominence angle, medium wide nasal aperture, and broad and low orbits
    This combination, which is rather unusual since it cannot be described as either Caucasoid or Mongoloid, shows a remarkable persistence in Gorny Altai over several millennia. The entire complex of these traits was observed in several skeletal populations of that territory, from the Neolithic to the Early Iron Age, strongly implying biological continuity.
    Quite a number of human skeletal remains associated with the Pazyryk and Kara-Koba cultures have been published (Chikisheva, 1994, 1996, 2000b, 2002, 2003a). The morphological trait combination that is predominant among the Pazyryk tribes appears to be autochthonous and probably derives from the Neolithic population of Gorny Altai and from people associated with an Okunev-type culture(Karakol)
    .

    2. Moreover Kozintsev proved it by comparing all bronze stepp groups in a pairwise manner with Mahalanobis D2 values (2008, 2009). And he lead a conclusion that East Ural and Okunevo people were intermediate between caucasoid and Mongoloid. Is there any couter argument against Kozintsev’s result?
    The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye, were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I think 30 ka Mongoloid split from west Eurasian, more or less along the line of the split between Q and R.
    We have evidence of human presence in Beringia just before and just after LGM (well, 14 ka), but I don't think there was continuity in Beringia during LGM, it seems to far north to me.
    Maybe even earlier. Look at Usti'shim 45kya, he already shows more East Asian influence than Oase1, and he is in Central Asia, not Far East. This means that in East Asia diversification should have been even bigger already. Process was already under way.
    It is possible that diversification of American/Beringian/Siberian happened later after LGM when Northern peeps stated spreading from refugium farther south. But it is just my guess.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Is there any couter argument against Kozintsev’s result?
    I have already cited Gromov conclusions:
    - сultural-genetic similarity with Kalmykia and Astrakhan.
    - there is purely Europoid and purely Mongoloid skulls at the early stage of Okunevo culture
    - at a late stage already mixed skull series

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Maybe even earlier. Look at Usti'shim 45kya, he already shows more East Asian influence than Oase1, and he is in Central Asia, not Far East. This means that in East Asia diversification should have been even bigger already. Process was already under way.
    It is possible that diversification of American/Beringian/Siberian happened later after LGM when Northern peeps stated spreading from refugium farther south. But it is just my guess.
    First modern humans came to Siberia via the Central Asian corridor only ca 48 ka, before it was Neanderthal and Denisovan land.
    Native Americans arrived in America in waves 16-13 ka.
    Paleo-eskimo arrived around Bering Street 5.5 ka, Inuit just over 2 ka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    I have already cited Gromov conclusions:
    - there is purely Europoid and purely Mongoloid skulls at the early stage of Okunevo culture
    Can you tell me when and which burial is the early stage of Okunevo?
    Actually I never heard that okunevo sites have Europoid and Mongoloid, but afanasievo’s.
    Craniofacial morphological study of human remains from Neolithic period of Altai mountain,Buryatia and Inner Mongolia China show great heterogeneity of morphological traits amongpopulations of the historic periods. Due to obtained craniofacial data the Neolithic Afanasevpopulation from Altai mountain characterize Caucasoid anthropological features while studied Neolithicpopulations from Inner Mongolia, Baikal lake region show typical mongoloid anthropological features.Nevertheless most taxonomic traits of some skulls from Kharagol site of Afanasev culture of Altaimountain demonstrate their mongoloid features. It may show that Neolithic Afanasev population fromAltai mountain anthropologically was heterogeneity which can be explained by migration of mongoloid population from East Asia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    I have already cited Gromov conclusions:
    - сultural-genetic similarity with Kalmykia and Astrakhan.
    - at a late stage already mixed skull series
    1.
    Gromov (Ibid.) suggests that the Okunev community resulted from an admixture of Eastern and Western populations, and that this admixture is evident at both the within-group and between-group level. Leaving the former aside because of a lesser reliability of individual diagnostics, it can be noted that at the between-group level, the Okunev physical type is quite peculiar, and this peculiarity is not seen in either of the supposed ancestral groups (Caucasoid or Mongoloid). Therefore the observed pattern could hardly have resulted from admixture. This is evidenced by both craniometrics (Ibid.)and cranial nonmetrics (Gromov, Moiseyev, 2004), and by the results of their integration (Kozintsev, Gromov, Moiseyev, 1999, 2003; Kozintsev, 2004). In addition, if the Catacomb people actually participated in Okunev origins, we would have to admit that they were ancestral also to the Neolithic population of Krasnoyarsk–Kansk area, which is craniometrically quite close to the Okunev group. As nothing indicates this, it is more reasonable to assume that the Okunev people were autochthonous, and that European elements of their culture are borrowings.
    2. And Alexander Kozintsevalso(2009) used Kalmykia sample, which was close to Andronovo(Fedorov),not okunevo.
    Fedorov, the Upper Ob, pooled: Catacomb, Stavropol area (0.50); late Pit Grave, Kalmykia (0.80); Pit Grave, Stavropol area (0.90)
    3. Surely the altai people like the Ural people has made anthropologists confusing, which, I think, is caused by Malta Boy.


    Okunevo’s genes originated in the Malta and continued to Karasuk and the Iron age Altai(East Scythians). Without malta, all west Eurasian genes of central Asia seems to be from Yamna. A few days ago scythian reserach also concluded that East scythian were mixed with Yamna and East Asian. So this conclusion becomes against recent anthro data.
    However, Okunevo’s genetic admixture directly came from Malta, which means Alexander Kozintsev result is correct, I think. And also recent Russsian anthropologists already proved Karasuk and East/ west scythian case also.
    The results suggest that the Irmen people originated in the Novosibirsk and Baraba areas from a mixture of Andronovo (Fedorovka) and autochthonous groups. Dental data are inconsistent with the idea that the Karasuk tribes might have taken part in this process. The Karasuk people clearly descended from the Okunevo people, as evidenced by the elevated frequencies of the Carabelli cusp and deflecting wrinkle. None of these traits is present in the Irmen people, who display dental gracility evidently introduced by Andronovo (Fedorovka) tribes.

    The Late Scythian population considered in this study proved to be genetically homogeneous, although some connections with the Sarmatians were found. We also revealed similarities between the Scythian groups and the local Bronze Age population of the Srubnaya culture, as well as, to a lesser extent, a group representative of the Central Asian Bronze Age Okunevo culture.

    Craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate between Mongoloid and Caucasoid populations. Genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes
    Quite a number of human skeletal remains associated with the Pazyryk and Kara-Koba cultures have been published (Chikisheva, 1994, 1996, 2000b, 2002, 2003a). The morphological trait combination that is predominant among the Pazyryk tribes appears to be autochthonous and probably derives from the Neolithic population of Gorny Altai and from people associated with an Okunev-type culture(Karakol)
    Last edited by johen; 09-03-17 at 00:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Can you tell me when and which burial is the early stage of Okunevo?
    Actually I never heard that okunevo sites have Europoid and Mongoloid, but afanasievo’s.
    google translate:
    In the early Okunev monuments, there are individual Caucasoid and Mongoloid skulls that do not bear traces of metisation. By the late stage of the existence of culture, there is a certain homogenization of the population. A comparison of the skulls of the Okunevites with a series of skulls from the cemeteries of Siberian and Eastern European cultures of the Neolithic and Palaeometallic ages shows that the Okunevs belong to the circle of metisal populations.

    The contacts of the local population with the Western European groups of Western origin, which in fact led to the formation of Okunevo culture, formed the anthropological image of the Okunevites. It is characterized by brachycrania and some flattening of the facial skeleton with a rather protruding nose.

    Attention is drawn to the certain similarity between the Okunevites and the population of the Bronze Age of Kalmykia and the Astrakhan right bank. Skulls from the burial grounds of the pit culture of this region were characterized by europeoid features and brahikrania. In this series there are artificially deformed skulls, whose shape of deformation is similar to that of Okunevskaya.
    Unfortunately, significant gaps in the cranial materials of the Neolith-Bronze Age from the territory of Kazakhstan and Iriuralye, the intermediate territories between South Siberia and Eastern Europe, do not allow us to determine the path of movement of European migrants. (Gromov)
    http://earthpapers.net/antropologiya...yuzhnoy-sibiri

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Thanks, really good Information.

    The most notable feature is Okunev artificial deformation of skulls. It is expressed in a large skewness and flatness occipital-parietal department. The center of this flatness occurs in the region compounds the parietal and occipital bones, at least - in the area obeliona. Designed for fixing the height of the deformation index of the occiput (EWI) and the index of the occiput (IPE) have revealed a similarity with the other series of skulls, deformed in the occipital-parietal region and originality okunevtsev. EHS features a series parietal deformation of non-deformed and brings with okunevtsami skulls from burial pit and pit-Catacomb culture of Kalmykia, Zoroastrians Frinkenta (XIII c.), Men's series of the Nestorian cemeteries XIII century. Chu Valley. IPE characterizes the specificity of strain Okunev skulls. According to this index closest to the population Okunev culture Yamnik(?) Kalmykia
    1.The deformation culture among Afanasievo, catacomb and okunevo contiuned definately to only scythian/Hun elites, not commoners, like this:
    Alekseeva EA Reconstruction of the face on the skull of the male burial Ustyug 1 (Bakal culture, V-VI cent. BC ): I think he would be a scythian elite.


    In early Okunev monuments are individual Caucasoid and Mongoloid skull, do not carry traces of cross-breeding. By the late stages of the culture there is a certain homogenization of the population. Compare okunevtsev skulls with lots of skulls from burial grounds in Siberia and the Eastern cultures of the Neolithic and paleometal shows that okunevtsy belong to the circle metisnye populations.
    Ya, that one is a mistery. And the Caucasoid might be remnants of Afanasievo people, because afansievo people merged with local okunevo people. As far as I know, okunevo tuva cranial series resemble late yamna series.
    http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034we...a(434-456).pdf

    Noteworthy okunevtsev certain similarity with the population era of Kalmykia and the Astrakhan bronze right bank. The skulls from burial pit culture of this region characterized Caucasoid features and brahikraniey. In this series are artificially deformed skull, the shape of which is similar to the strain Okunev. Unfortunately, significant gaps in the cranial materials Neolithic-bronze from the territory of Kazakhstan and Iriuralya, intermediate territory between Siberia and South Eastern Europe, did not allow us to determine the path of movement of European workers.
    The author’s anthropological analysis is consistent with the archaelogical data that there has been no evidence for western people to enter western steppe in south siberia before 2,000bc. (we should not explain it by a cowboy story)
    Again I want to ask a question of how the afanasievo people migrated in Altai without footprints in western steppe? I always think that they used Ural forests/forest steppe with lots of food where is cool in summer, and warm in winter. That is why animal husbandry and copper mining was developed in the east Urals even in 4th millenium bc. How come ancient people tried to migrate to the coldest area from warm area? As far as I know, winter temperature in mongolia steppe is below -40C, but -12C even in Karelia, Russia. How come yamna people knew there was copper in altai, not knowing copper in sintashta before 2,000bc?
    = how to explain the yamna migration in Russian Academy?

    In terms of cranial morphology, the Afanasyev people were very similar to those associated with the synchronous Pit-grave (Yamnaya) culture of the Russian Plain. Two hypothesis have been advanced to explain the origin of the Afanasyev population. In early studies, the morphological similarity between the Afanasyev and Pit-grave people was explained by a large-scale migration of Caucasoids from Eastern Europe to Southern Siberia and Easter Central Asia (Debetz, 1948; Alexeyev, 1961). Later, Alexeyev (1989: 350 – 355) discussed another possibility: the Afanasyev people had independently descended from an early Caucasoid population whose homeland was the eastern part of the Eurasian steppe belt.

    Nor are these affi nities shown by the Afanasyev people disregarding isolated Central and Western European ties of Saldyar and Afanasyeva Gora. Despite this, the ties of the Afanasyev groups with the early and late Catacomb are distributed approximately evenly. The general conclusion is rather modest: Afanasyev roots apparently lie in Eastern European steppes and forest-steppes, but relating them to a specific culture is impossible.
    A.G. Kozintsev(2009)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Thanks, really good Information.



    1.The deformation culture among Afanasievo, catacomb and okunevo contiuned definately to only scythian/Hun elites, not commoners, like this:
    Alekseeva EA Reconstruction of the face on the skull of the male burial Ustyug 1 (Bakal culture, V-VI cent. BC ): I think he would be a scythian elite.




    Ya, that one is a mistery. And the Caucasoid might be remnants of Afanasievo people, because afansievo people merged with local okunevo people. As far as I know, okunevo tuva cranial series resemble late yamna series.
    http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034we...a(434-456).pdf



    The author’s anthropological analysis is consistent with the archaelogical data that there has been no evidence for western people to enter western steppe in south siberia before 2,000bc. (we should not explain it by a cowboy story)
    Again I want to ask a question of how the afanasievo people migrated in Altai without footprints in western steppe? I always think that they used Ural forests/forest steppe with lots of food where is cool in summer, and warm in winter. That is why animal husbandry and copper mining was developed in the east Urals even in 4th millenium bc. How come ancient people tried to migrate to the coldest area from warm area? As far as I know, winter temperature in mongolia steppe is below -40C, but -12C even in Karelia, Russia. How come yamna people knew there was copper in altai, not knowing copper in sintashta before 2,000bc?
    = how to explain the yamna migration in Russian Academy?




    A.G. Kozintsev(2009)
    Ok...talking about a flat occiput....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Not only East Europe, with the Tumulus and Urnfield also Central and Northwest Europe.


    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
    My friend, could you explain me your point here?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Paleolithic and Mesolithic migrations in Europe and Siberia

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    My friend, could you explain me your point here?
    Of course!
    When I compare genetics with archeology the essence is:

    - Genetics: roots in Omsk/Seima-Turbino!?
    Gedmatch results of my autosomal DNA with ancient aDNA material. This was the result:
    1. Ust-Ishii Siberia 45kya up to 6cM, Omsk, Seima-Turbino
    2. Ne 1 Hungary 7,2 kya up to 5cM, Neoltihic Hungary
    3. Clovis Montana 12,5 kya up to 4cM, Native America, ANE like
    4. Loschbour Lux 8 kya up to 4cM, WHG
    5. LBK Stuttgart 7 kya up to 3cM, Neolithic Southern Germany
    6. Br 2 Hungary 3,2 kya up to 3cM Bronze Age Hungary
    7. Rise Sweden 3,7 KY up to 3 cM R1b U106 Corded Ware Sweden

    - Archeology: Bronze Age Sögel warriors, Prof L. Kooijmans(1998):
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example. (that's my mothers place of birth !- Northener) It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

    This supposed immigration of Bronze Age warriors was about 1600 BC.

    - Archeology: Sögel warriors are rooted in Seima-Turbino, Dr. S.A, Grigoryev (2002)
    "In Northern Germany and Denmark, where all the processes were underway but some at a later date than in more southerly areas, celts and spear-heads with a decorated socket inheriting directly Seima-Turbino traditions, appear only from the timecorresponding to stage Br B/1 in Southern Germany(Fig. 97) [Müller-Karpe, 1980, Taf. 501, 504, 506]"

    I know this is a short cut, the reality is always complicated, but to give you a an idea why I made this statement.



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    I'm sticked to my chair, and my legs can no more carry me (by surprise) -
    two problems: what confidence in Gedmatch? Some more
    Ust 'Ishim has no North Sea, no Baltic, only a few Atlantic, and is drifted towards SE-Asia - you have surely some good ANE taste as other northern Europeans but...
    concerning Grigoryev, I have some doubts; it's true that in what I red (an abstract) he spoke of a Seima-Turbino influence upon people of the Steppes, already kurganized, what according to him created the future Germanic, Baltic and Slavic cultures before they moved westwards (he spoke that Celts received too some influence! even until Gaul) - but let' be cautious; Germanics are Y-R1b-U106°Y-I1+Y-R1a but this R1a is specific (and rather CWC or just pre-CWC?) - to me Seyma-Turbino is rather a Y-N1 phenomenon, perhaps with some taste of a branch of Y-Q, before I know more - what don't prove there has not been cultural influences at the mergins.
    It's true I know little yet about all these chains of more or less lined and derived ancient cultures -

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