Paleolithic and Mesolithic migrations in Europe and Siberia

Many Mesolithic skull series of Eastern Europe show flattening and a decrease in horizontal profiling, which clearly indicate a Mongoloid admixture. But this has nothing to do with ANE. In modern European populations, horizontal profiling is much more pronounced.

(nm) nazomalar angle 140 and more = mongoloid admixture
(zm) zygomaxilar angle more than 127-129 = mongoloid admixture
nazal bone angle less than 29 = mongoloid admixture


92977465c4a6.png




Perhaps modern Europeans come from a small Mesolithic populations without these admixtures. Or their horizontal profiling increased after mixing with farmers.


Can be compared with modern populations:

Modern Russians of Novgorod:
nazomalar angle - 135.9
zygomaxilar angle - 123.5
Nasal bones - 31.9

Modern Udmurts:
nazomalar angle - 142.2
zygomaxilar angle - 128.9

nazomalar angle:
Yukagirs - 148,7
Mongolians - 146,4
Nenets - 146,4
Khanty - 143,9
Mansi - 142,1
Lopar - 140,6
 
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Many Mesolithic skull series of Eastern Europe show flattening and a decrease in horizontal profiling, which clearly indicate a Mongoloid admixture. But this has nothing to do with ANE. In modern European populations, horizontal profiling is much more pronounced.

(nm) nazomalar angle 140 and more = mongoloid admixture
(zm) zygomaxilar angle more than 127-129 = mongoloid admixture
nazal bone angle less than 29 = mongoloid admixture

Perhaps modern Europeans come from a small Mesolithic populations without these admixtures. Or their horizontal profiling increased after mixing with farmers.
Confusing, but I think Russian anthropologists could not help but differentiate Bronze people among others including mesolithics and neolithics which is closer to modern people.

Debetz (1936), and Alexeev and Gokhman (1987) identified a so-called CroMagnon variety among the Bronze and Iron Age skeletal materials of European Russia and southern Siberia. This variety that combined the cranial robustness with a broad face, had its roots in the local Upper Palaeolithic

As you said, they also mentioned that the bronze people originated in the local UP. We don’t know which locals were their ancestors and where to hide until bronze age. However, I am sure that the bronze people brought IE language according to kurgan theory.

Can I ask questions?
1. Are there any mesolithic skulls, whose NM angle is below 140 or ZM angle below 127?
2. Do you have NM and ZM angle data of bronze people, especially Yamna/afanasievo?
3. And How broad are yamna and afansievo’s faces?
 
Many Mesolithic skull series of Eastern Europe show flattening and a decrease in horizontal profiling, which clearly indicate a Mongoloid admixture. But this has nothing to do with ANE. In modern European populations, horizontal profiling is much more pronounced.

(nm) nazomalar angle 140 and more = mongoloid admixture
(zm) zygomaxilar angle more than 127-129 = mongoloid admixture
nazal bone angle less than 29 = mongoloid admixture


92977465c4a6.png




Perhaps modern Europeans come from a small Mesolithic populations without these admixtures. Or their horizontal profiling increased after mixing with farmers.


Can be compared with modern populations:

Modern Russians of Novgorod:
nazomalar angle - 135.9
zygomaxilar angle - 123.5
Nasal bones - 31.9

Modern Udmurts:
nazomalar angle - 142.2
zygomaxilar angle - 128.9

nazomalar angle:
Yukagirs - 148,7
Mongolians - 146,4
Nenets - 146,4
Khanty - 143,9
Mansi - 142,1
Lopar - 140,6

How do you explain the Siberian component in my aDNA and the ery obvious 'East-Baltid' phenotype or pop of my grandmother?

East Baltic, Hilden (1958): "Body strongly built and stocky, large, short head, wide and square shaped face, strongly emphasized arches of the cheek, comparably wide nose which was low from its root."

Of course she had also a big WHG/SHG component and also a Neolithic (Med) farmer component.

So I don't say it's a 100% fit, but the 'east baltic', 'mongoloïd' features especially the shape of her nose and the cheeks are according to me undeniable.....Please correct me If I'am wrong, Don.

I guess these kind of phenotype is rooted in the Pit Comb Ware the cranial finding of this culture are very clear about that. You already stated that. I think it's no coincidence that the spread of the 'East Baltic' equivalent 'Tavastid' shows almost 1:1 the picture of the spread of the Corded Ware.

2wolqhi.jpg

vd32pg.jpg
 
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Confusing, but I think Russian anthropologists could not help but differentiate Bronze people among others including mesolithics and neolithics which is closer to modern people.


As you said, they also mentioned that the bronze people originated in the local UP. We don’t know which locals were their ancestors and where to hide until bronze age. However, I am sure that the bronze people brought IE language according to kurgan theory.

Can I ask questions?
1. Are there any mesolithic skulls, whose NM angle is below 140 or ZM angle below 127?
2. Do you have NM and ZM angle data of bronze people, especially Yamna/afanasievo?
3. And How broad are yamna and afansievo’s faces?

1.Yes, there you can see mesolithic Zvejnieki have 139.8 and 125.5. Vasilievka III (Dnepro-Donetsk) has 140.1 and 124.2 Most likely there is an admixture there and there, but it is small.
Perhaps modern Europeans partly come from these populations.

Also there in the table is seen as an early series of Neolithic Zvejnieki are fairly European and have 138.2 and 122.0. (Similar characteristics in the population of modern Russians Tver and Ryazan)
And the late series is already 141.9 and 130.1 (similar to the modern Udmurt population).

Alekseeva also writes that the original dolichocephalyc europoid Dnepro-Donetsk type is in Yasinovatka (pit A). And in Vasilievka II there was a meso-brahicephalyc component of eastern origin. And now we know in Dnepro-Donetsk there are East-Asian MtDNA.

2. There are some data on Yamnaya, but they are quite common. The culture was on a vast territory.
Nm 136.3
Zm 124.4

(Eastern Corded Ware)
Fatyanovo
Nm 136.4
Zm 126.4

Balanovo
Nm 135.7
Zm 121.7

Well, we know that Yamnaya was mixed with CHG populations, and CWC with EEF. Maybe that's why they have so enlarge profiling in comparison with Mesolithic? Who knows.

3. I have not seen such data.
 
How do you explain the Siberian component in my aDNA and the ery obvious 'East-Baltid' phenotype or pop of my grandmother?

East Baltic, Hilden (1958): "Body strongly built and stocky, large, short head, wide and square shaped face, strongly emphasized arches of the cheek, comparably wide nose which was low from its root."

Of course she had also a big WHG/SHG component and also a Neolithic (Med) farmer component.

So I don't say it's a 100% fit, but the 'east baltic', 'mongoloïd' features especially the shape of her nose and the cheeks are according to me undeniable.....Please correct me If I'am wrong, Don.

I guess these kind of phenotype is rooted in the Pit Comb Ware the cranial finding of this culture are very clear about that. You already stated that. I think it's no coincidence that the spread of the 'East Baltic' equivalent 'Tavastid' shows almost 1:1 the picture of the spread of the Corded Ware.

Asian admixture can be from mesolithic, can be from pit comb ware.
But mesolithic admix is already implied in the EHG, as far I understand.
Maybe you just have a random siberian admix from historical times? What admix do other Dutch have?

But for reliability it is still better to take measurements, it is difficult to say something from the photo. But eyes of your grandmother's not alike on the so-called "Eastern Baltid".
 
Thanks Don, it's a Finno-Ugric treat I guess.
Usht-Ishim (related to me) is haplotype NO, thanks to Siberian spread it went into Finland/Balticum.

See:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17149388

The comb ware blended partly into corded ware:

"The spread of the Uralic speaking societies represented by Combed Ware Style 2 to Finland, Estonia and Latvia brought about a replacement of the regionally spoken Ancient European. This again appears to have left substrate ele- ments (both vocabulary and place names) in the replacing Uralic. Meanwhile, in the Volga-Oka region, Ljalovo was followed by the Eneolithic Volosovo culture around 3600 BC. The Volosovo, as all other earlier and contemporary (Sub-)Neolithic cultures of the region of interest, based its subsistence on hunting, fishing and gathering.

Around 3200 BC, however, the Corded Ware culture, carried by a demic movement (although there are alternative explanations), pushed from the south into the East Baltic and as far as the south and west of Finland. This culture had formed within a pastoral and agricultural context and linguistically, it is linked to Proto-Northwest-Indo-European. This would provide a plausible source for the Proto-Indo-European loanwords found in western Uralic (i.e. ancestor of Finnic). In spite of strong pressure, the western Uralic (north of the Daugava) persisted even though changes in the cultural identity occurred. The immigration of the Corded Ware Culture definitively divided Finland in two areas, eventually diverging both lingually and ethnically. While in the south and west, a Finnic line of development began, development in the east and north led towards Sámi. South of the Daugava, Indo-European replaced the original Ancient European language.

The Volosovo societies had contacts with steppe societies, who were probably speakers of Proto-Indo-European. On the other hand, between 2800 and 2600 BC Indo-European speakers came into close contact with Uralic/Finno-Ugric speakers in the Volga-Oka region, where the Fat’janovo culture (a variety within the extensive Corded Ware–Battle Axe entity), carried by a demic movement, pushed from the south-west and settled down in the midst of the local Volosovo societies. This repeated the situation experienced in Latvia, Esthonia and SW Finland after the Corded Ware expansion. Also in Central Russia the Uralic/Finno-Ugric persisted in spite of strong pressure. No doubt Fat’janovo provided a source for Indo-European loanwords, although this is difficult to verify because Slavicisation extinguished the local Uralic/Finno-Ugric langua- ges centuries ago. Moreover, the Fat’janovo expansion apparently broke the extensive east-west contact network indicated above. Later, before and after 2000 BC, waves of influence emanating from Indo-Aryan and Iranian steppe societies, represented by the Abaševo culture and varieties of the Timber Grave (esp. Pozdnjakovo) culture, transmitted additional lingual elements.

The combined influence of Fat’janovo, Abaševo and Pozdnjakovo on Voloso- vo resulted in the formation of a new Bronze Age cultural expression in the Volga-Oka region marked by Fabric Impressed Ware (often called “Net Ware” or “Textile Ware”). Soon a strong wave of influence, probably carried by a demic movement, brought this cultural expression to eastern Fennoscandia. At the same time, the Sejma-Turbino “cross-cultural network” distributed bronzes and, no doubt, also other cultural elements from East Russia as far as Estonia and Finland. This was a period of intensive cultural expansion which calmed down in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC. As a whole, during the Bronze
Age, the Volga-Oka region and the Mid-Volga zone in particular underwent strong Indo-European pressure. In spite of this, the Uralic languages survived there until the Middle Ages and some, such as Mari, are spoken by minorities still today.

In the west, again waves of influence emanating from the coasts of the southern Baltic Sea reached the Finnic region, first from the Baltic and then from the Germanic sphere."

http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Carpelan.pdf

In this mobile Corded Ware (Indo-European) waves from NW Russia/ Baltcum it has had influence on the North Germanic/ Low Lands area. And also left it's genetical traces.

I call it traces because, like haplotype N, it's not common in NW Europe. But in my aDNA there is a very clear relationship with Usht-Ishim (6cM), and the admixtures point slightly to Finland (FTDNA 3% and DNA Land 5%).

And in in NW Europe also in the physical appearance (phenotype) it's likewise, it's not very obvious but some people have clear traces of the Finno-Ugric or 'East-Baltic' phenotype....
 
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Thanks Don, it's a Finno-Ugric treat I guess.
Usht-Ishim (related to me) is haplotype NO, thanks to Siberian spread it went into Finland/Balticum.

See:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17149388

The comb ware blended partly into corded ware:

"The spread of the Uralic speaking societies represented by Combed Ware Style 2 to Finland, Estonia and Latvia brought about a replacement of the regionally spoken Ancient European. This again appears to have left substrate ele- ments (both vocabulary and place names) in the replacing Uralic. Meanwhile, in the Volga-Oka region, Ljalovo was followed by the Eneolithic Volosovo culture around 3600 BC. The Volosovo, as all other earlier and contemporary (Sub-)Neolithic cultures of the region of interest, based its subsistence on hunting, fishing and gathering.

Around 3200 BC, however, the Corded Ware culture, carried by a demic movement (although there are alternative explanations), pushed from the south into the East Baltic and as far as the south and west of Finland. This culture had formed within a pastoral and agricultural context and linguistically, it is linked to Proto-Northwest-Indo-European. This would provide a plausible source for the Proto-Indo-European loanwords found in western Uralic (i.e. ancestor of Finnic). In spite of strong pressure, the western Uralic (north of the Daugava) persisted even though changes in the cultural identity occurred. The immigration of the Corded Ware Culture definitively divided Finland in two areas, eventually diverging both lingually and ethnically. While in the south and west, a Finnic line of development began, development in the east and north led towards Sámi. South of the Daugava, Indo-European replaced the original Ancient European language.

The Volosovo societies had contacts with steppe societies, who were probably speakers of Proto-Indo-European. On the other hand, between 2800 and 2600 BC Indo-European speakers came into close contact with Uralic/Finno-Ugric speakers in the Volga-Oka region, where the Fat’janovo culture (a variety within the extensive Corded Ware–Battle Axe entity), carried by a demic movement, pushed from the south-west and settled down in the midst of the local Volosovo societies. This repeated the situation experienced in Latvia, Esthonia and SW Finland after the Corded Ware expansion. Also in Central Russia the Uralic/Finno-Ugric persisted in spite of strong pressure. No doubt Fat’janovo provided a source for Indo-European loanwords, although this is difficult to verify because Slavicisation extinguished the local Uralic/Finno-Ugric langua- ges centuries ago. Moreover, the Fat’janovo expansion apparently broke the extensive east-west contact network indicated above. Later, before and after 2000 BC, waves of influence emanating from Indo-Aryan and Iranian steppe societies, represented by the Abaševo culture and varieties of the Timber Grave (esp. Pozdnjakovo) culture, transmitted additional lingual elements.

The combined influence of Fat’janovo, Abaševo and Pozdnjakovo on Voloso- vo resulted in the formation of a new Bronze Age cultural expression in the Volga-Oka region marked by Fabric Impressed Ware (often called “Net Ware” or “Textile Ware”). Soon a strong wave of influence, probably carried by a demic movement, brought this cultural expression to eastern Fennoscandia. At the same time, the Sejma-Turbino “cross-cultural network” distributed bronzes and, no doubt, also other cultural elements from East Russia as far as Estonia and Finland. This was a period of intensive cultural expansion which calmed down in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC. As a whole, during the Bronze
Age, the Volga-Oka region and the Mid-Volga zone in particular underwent strong Indo-European pressure. In spite of this, the Uralic languages survived there until the Middle Ages and some, such as Mari, are spoken by minorities still today.

In the west, again waves of influence emanating from the coasts of the southern Baltic Sea reached the Finnic region, first from the Baltic and then from the Germanic sphere."

http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Carpelan.pdf

In this mobile Corded Ware (Indo-European) waves from NW Russia/ Baltcum it has had influence on the North Germanic/ Low Lands area. And also left it's genetical traces.

I call it traces because, like haplotype N, it's not common in NW Europe. But in my aDNA there is a very clear relationship with Usht-Ishim (6cM), and the admixtures point slightly to Finland (FTDNA 3% and DNA Land 5%).

And in in NW Europe also in the physical appearance (phenotype) it's likewise, it's not very obvious but some people have clear traces of the Finno-Ugric or 'East-Baltic' phenotype....


This is outdated BS, there is no support for Carpelan from many scholars today, the timeline he describes is impossible.
I have posted several more recent studies and papers here several times but you people dont read them and just come up with stuff from your head or post outdated sources.
 
This is outdated BS, there is no support for Carpelan from many scholars today, the timeline he describes is impossible.
I have posted several more recent studies and papers here several times but you people dont read them and just come up with stuff from your head or post outdated sources.

If you have more and good recent stuff, welcome!!

Does this mean that the essence: haplotype N coming from Siberia went into Finland/Balticum/NW Russia (founder effect) and had from Corded Ware times on also an impact on NW Europe not right!?
 
If you have more and good recent stuff, welcome!!

Does this mean that the essence: haplotype N coming from Siberia went into Finland/Balticum/NW Russia (founder effect) and had from Corded Ware times on also an impact on NW Europe not right!?

[FONT=&quot]The Language Contact Situation in Prehistoric Northeastern Europe[/FONT]

https://www.academia.edu/20252178/The_Language_Contact_Situation_in_Prehistoric_Northeastern_Europe

[FONT=&quot]On Germanic-Saami contacts and Saami prehistory[/FONT]

http://www.academia.edu/1959273/On_Germanic-Saami_contacts_and_Saami_prehistory

[FONT=&quot]Formation of Proto-Finnic – an archaeological scenario from theBronze Age – Early Iron Age

[/FONT]http://www.oulu.fi/sites/default/files/content/CIFU12-BookOfAbstracts_4.pdf[FONT=&quot]

Spatiotemporal Contributions to the Linguistic Prehistory of Fennoscandia

[/FONT]​https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/135714

[FONT=&quot]De situ linguarum fennicarum aetatis ferreae, Pars I

[/FONT]http://www.helsinki.fi/folkloristiikka/English/RMN/RMN_9_Winter_2014-2015.pdf#page=64

[FONT=&quot]Kaleva and his Sons from Kalanti –On the Etymology of Certain Names in Finnic Mythology[/FONT]

http://www.linguistics.fi/julkaisut/SKY2012/Heikkila.pdf

[FONT=&quot]THE MIGRATION PERIOD, PRE-VIKING AGE, AND VIKING AGE IN ESTONIA[/FONT]

http://www.academia.edu/2237217/THE_MIGRATION_PERIOD_PRE-VIKING_AGE_AND_VIKING_AGE_IN_ESTONIA

[FONT=&quot]Marks of Fire, Value and Faith. Swords with Ferrous Inlays in Finland during the Late Iron Age (ca. 700–1200 AD)[/FONT]

http://www.doria.fi/handle/10024/119919


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Estonian Journal of Archaeology[/FONT]


http://www.kirj.ee/archaeology


[FONT=&quot]The Journal Virittäjä

[/FONT]
http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/english/index.html
 
What do we know about the prehistory of languages and cultures in areas, such as Northern Europe that do not have written documents or large extinct cities? For decades, archaeology and linguistics, two disciplines weaving together multiple interdisciplinary aspects have fostered a dialogue focusing on cultural and linguistic networks, mobility and contacts between people. This book sheds new light on cultural diffusion and language change in prehistoric Northern Europe with special emphasis on the northern Baltic Sea area. The rise of agriculture, identification of new cultural waves in terms of language are topics that outline the early prehistory in the North. The book contains twelve articles by linguists and archaeologists, evidence drawn from various Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages, and up-to-date insights into the research of prehistoric Northern Europe.


Riho Grünthal: Introduction: an interdisciplinary perspective on prehistoric Northern Europe [PDF]
Mika Lavento: Cultivation among hunter-gatherers in Finland – evidence of activated connections? [PDF]
Charlotte Damm: From Entities to Interaction: Replacing pots and people with networks of transmission [PDF]
Luobbal Sámmol Sámmol Ánte (Ante Aikio): An essay on Saami ethnolinguistic prehistory [PDF]
Asko Parpola: Formation of the Indo-European and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language families in the light of archaeology: Revised and integrated 'total' correlations [PDF]
Tiit-Rein Viitso: Early Metallurgy in Language: The History of Metal Names in Finnic [PDF]
Karl Pajusalu: Phonological Innovations of the Southern Finnic Languages [PDF]
Petri Kallio: The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic [PDF]
Guus Kroonen: Non-Indo-European root nouns in Germanic: evidence in support of the Agricultural Substrate Hypothesis [PDF]
Santeri Junttila: The prehistoric context of the oldest contacts between Baltic and Finnic languages [PDF]
Riho Grünthal: Baltic loanwords in Mordvin [PDF]
Willem Vermeer: Why Baba-Yaga? Substratal phonetics and restoration of velars subject to the Progressive Palatalization in Russian/Belorussian and adjacent areas (appr. 600–900 CE) [PDF]

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266.html
 
What do we know about the prehistory of languages and cultures in areas, such as Northern Europe that do not have written documents or large extinct cities? For decades, archaeology and linguistics, two disciplines weaving together multiple interdisciplinary aspects have fostered a dialogue focusing on cultural and linguistic networks, mobility and contacts between people. This book sheds new light on cultural diffusion and language change in prehistoric Northern Europe with special emphasis on the northern Baltic Sea area. The rise of agriculture, identification of new cultural waves in terms of language are topics that outline the early prehistory in the North. The book contains twelve articles by linguists and archaeologists, evidence drawn from various Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages, and up-to-date insights into the research of prehistoric Northern Europe.


Riho Grünthal: Introduction: an interdisciplinary perspective on prehistoric Northern Europe [PDF]
Mika Lavento: Cultivation among hunter-gatherers in Finland – evidence of activated connections? [PDF]
Charlotte Damm: From Entities to Interaction: Replacing pots and people with networks of transmission [PDF]
Luobbal Sámmol Sámmol Ánte (Ante Aikio): An essay on Saami ethnolinguistic prehistory [PDF]
Asko Parpola: Formation of the Indo-European and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language families in the light of archaeology: Revised and integrated 'total' correlations [PDF]
Tiit-Rein Viitso: Early Metallurgy in Language: The History of Metal Names in Finnic [PDF]
Karl Pajusalu: Phonological Innovations of the Southern Finnic Languages [PDF]
Petri Kallio: The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic [PDF]
Guus Kroonen: Non-Indo-European root nouns in Germanic: evidence in support of the Agricultural Substrate Hypothesis [PDF]
Santeri Junttila: The prehistoric context of the oldest contacts between Baltic and Finnic languages [PDF]
Riho Grünthal: Baltic loanwords in Mordvin [PDF]
Willem Vermeer: Why Baba-Yaga? Substratal phonetics and restoration of velars subject to the Progressive Palatalization in Russian/Belorussian and adjacent areas (appr. 600–900 CE) [PDF]

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266.html

Ukko, impressive, thank you very much.
Loads to read now!
I have no agenda or something like that. I'am driven by curiosity for my roots. Genetics are fascinating in this respect. My Y-DNA brought me to Egypt, now my aDNA to Siberia (and the Finno-Ugric).
So again thanks and I will rest my case until I've read lots of them ;)
 
What do we know about the prehistory of languages and cultures in areas, such as Northern Europe that do not have written documents or large extinct cities? For decades, archaeology and linguistics, two disciplines weaving together multiple interdisciplinary aspects have fostered a dialogue focusing on cultural and linguistic networks, mobility and contacts between people. This book sheds new light on cultural diffusion and language change in prehistoric Northern Europe with special emphasis on the northern Baltic Sea area. The rise of agriculture, identification of new cultural waves in terms of language are topics that outline the early prehistory in the North. The book contains twelve articles by linguists and archaeologists, evidence drawn from various Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages, and up-to-date insights into the research of prehistoric Northern Europe.


Riho Grünthal: Introduction: an interdisciplinary perspective on prehistoric Northern Europe [PDF]
Mika Lavento: Cultivation among hunter-gatherers in Finland – evidence of activated connections? [PDF]
Charlotte Damm: From Entities to Interaction: Replacing pots and people with networks of transmission [PDF]
Luobbal Sámmol Sámmol Ánte (Ante Aikio): An essay on Saami ethnolinguistic prehistory [PDF]
Asko Parpola: Formation of the Indo-European and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language families in the light of archaeology: Revised and integrated 'total' correlations [PDF]
Tiit-Rein Viitso: Early Metallurgy in Language: The History of Metal Names in Finnic [PDF]
Karl Pajusalu: Phonological Innovations of the Southern Finnic Languages [PDF]
Petri Kallio: The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic [PDF]
Guus Kroonen: Non-Indo-European root nouns in Germanic: evidence in support of the Agricultural Substrate Hypothesis [PDF]
Santeri Junttila: The prehistoric context of the oldest contacts between Baltic and Finnic languages [PDF]
Riho Grünthal: Baltic loanwords in Mordvin [PDF]
Willem Vermeer: Why Baba-Yaga? Substratal phonetics and restoration of velars subject to the Progressive Palatalization in Russian/Belorussian and adjacent areas (appr. 600–900 CE) [PDF]

http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266.html

Stil reading! ;)

There is still something in my mind I have traced something, but it still escapes...

The question is: how did the Finno-Ugric genes became part of the Northsea genepool?

I guess it's this one, according to ISOGG:
Geographic distribution so far of ancestry of modern-day haplogroup N subgroup men (not complete):
N1a1
CTS10760 Finland, Sweden, Sweden (Saami), Norway, Norway (Saami), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Netherlands, England, Scotland, Russia, Russia (Evens, Tatars, Maris, Komis, Mordvins, Chuvashes, Bashkirs, Karanogays), Russian Siberia (Nenets, Selkups, Tatars, Dolgans)


In my case: a clear connection with Ust-Ushim, underlined by admixture test (3-5% Finnish) and so called "pseudo-mongoloid" of "East-Baltic" kind of features in the family.

And ok that's familiar but for the country's around the North Sea it's more often mentioned (in the genotype and phenotype) of course way way less than around the Baltic Sea.....but still? What is the most plausible route from the East to the West? Paleothic-Mesolithicum? Corded ware? Bronze Age? Iron Age?

Still puzzling......
 
Stil reading! ;)

There is still something in my mind I have traced something, but it still escapes...

Welcome to the club. :wary2:

What is the most plausible route from the East to the West? Paleothic-Mesolithicum? Corded ware? Bronze Age? Iron Age?

Still puzzling......

It looks now late Bronze Age-early Iron Age for the Finnic arrival and influence, we are close to unlocking the stories of Northern Europeans but we need more ancient DNA to guide us.
 
Welcome to the club. :wary2:



It looks now late Bronze Age-early Iron Age for the Finnic arrival and influence, we are close to unlocking the stories of Northern Europeans but we need more ancient DNA to guide us.

Hahah Yes I guess so.
One little ad which confirms, in timing, the late Bronze Age-early Bronze Age for the Finnic arrival in NW Europe, the y full tree of the N subtype also found around the North Sea:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS10760/


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
It looks now late Bronze Age-early Iron Age for the Finnic arrival and influence, we are close to unlocking the stories of Northern Europeans but we need more ancient DNA to guide us.

When I look at this tree, regarding the North Sea, the Nores beloong to the Fenno-Scandic tree, and the English and Dutch one belong to the M-2783 tree, so to the Baltic part.

When the zenith moment of the spread is during the Bronze Age, than it's most probably part of the long distance networks of the Nordic Bronze Age. My aDNA region North Dutch belonged to the Nordic Bronze Age.

The influence of the Balts collapsed about 500 BC, at least when this publication is right:
https://www.academia.edu/5708651/Th...n_the_Baltic_region_during_the_5th_century_BC
 
Hahah Yes I guess so.
One little ad which confirms, in timing, the late Bronze Age-early Bronze Age for the Finnic arrival in NW Europe, the y full tree of the N subtype also found around the North Sea:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS10760/


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

I am 99% positive that the Finnic originated N lines found in NW Europe arrived during the Iron Age, most likely Migration Period and/or Viking Age.
People read Y trees in different ways, IMHO the N tree shows a Bronze Age birth and Iron Age expansion from European Russia between Pontic-Caspian steppe and Ural Mountains.
Arrival there most likely from Altai in the Bronze Age, some connection to Seima Turbino is likely.
 
The autosomal signals can be just +/-1000 years as the Germanic and Finnic connections where extensive and mostly women where exchanged as part of the trade based contacts, I would look at the mtdna lines as soon as the tests come more accurate.
 
I am 99% positive that the Finnic originated N lines found in NW Europe arrived during the Iron Age, most likely Migration Period and/or Viking Age.
People read Y trees in different ways, IMHO the N tree shows a Bronze Age birth and Iron Age expansion from European Russia between Pontic-Caspian steppe and Ural Mountains.
Arrival there most likely from Altai in the Bronze Age, some connection to Seima Turbino is likely.

1.I think Nganasan N1b would be related with Okunevo N and east scythian N1b. Probably it would be connected to Neolithic Hongshan culture N in manchu.

Another ancestral component that is maximized in the north Siberian Nganasan population becomes visible from the 2ndmillennium BCE onwards in the eastern steppe (Okunevo, Karasuk, Mezhovskaya). This component appears later in all Iron Age populations but with significantly higher levels in the eastern steppe zone than in the West.

2. I think seima-turbino culture would be related with yakut N1c and Fin N1c

Armor plates of Ymyyahtahskaya neolithic and bronze Culture(Ымыяхтахскaя культура) site in shaka republic
ec951bc405aa1ea4cd.jpg


seima turbino armor plates
sibir_32.jpg


3. But I am not sure where N started, altai or manchu.
 
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ncomms14615-f7.jpg


In the map, east asia gene(Han, yellow) started to appear since Iron age. So the N seemed to not originate in Manchu.
However, considering Cucuteni-Trypillian pottery culture in neolithic yangshao of china (first culture in yellow river) and egypt-type piramid in Hongshan of manchu (first neolithic culture in East Asia).
I think it is highly posible for N to enter Manchu from altai. Moreover, altai bronze culture is connected to gansu yangshao. And Yangshao N is archaeologically related with Hongshan N.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33545-Vinca-culture-and-shaman-culture

Moreover N people in Hongshan(west Liao) was significantly different from O3 people, even if N and O are genetically similar. The author mentioned not just "different", but "significantly different". so I think Hongshag N people admixture would be similar to okunevo people NO admixture, not to east asian admixture.

The Yellow River valley, located in the southwest region of the West Liao River valley, was one original centre of agriculture in China. O3-M122 is the most abundant haplogroup in both ancient (80%, n=5) and extant population (53%, n=304) of the region [8, 13], but the frequency of O3-M122 only began to rise in the West Liao River valley in the Bronze Age.The ancient West Liao River valley population is significantly different from both the ancient Yellow River Valley population (P<0.01), and the extant Yellow River Valley population (P<0.01).
EAsiaNeolithic.PNG
 
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I am 99% positive that the Finnic originated N lines found in NW Europe arrived during the Iron Age, most likely Migration Period and/or Viking Age.
People read Y trees in different ways, IMHO the N tree shows a Bronze Age birth and Iron Age expansion from European Russia between Pontic-Caspian steppe and Ural Mountains.
Arrival there most likely from Altai in the Bronze Age, some connection to Seima Turbino is likely.
Thanks!!
Migration period and/or Viking age.....mmmm for England I guess both, for Northern Netherlands I guess mostly the Migration Period.
You must know there are two significant parts in the Northern Netherlands:
a. Inland, higher sandy territory ('Saxon') this part is fully integrated in the oldest population developments of Northwest Germany and Southern Scandinavia, so Ertebølle (Swifterbant), Funnelbeaker, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Nordic Bronze Age. The last on could be interesting because about 1600 BC there was a heavy influence of the Nordics, see this, with the magnificent title, 'the end of the Nordic rainbow' http://rjh.ub.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/article/view/25026
But I guess reading your posting 1600 BC is to early for a N1c influence from the NE to the NW?
b. Coastal, wetland territory ('Frisian') people inhabited these areas about 500 BC, at the end of the Roman period, about 3/4 th century AD a severe population decline, followed by a very clear influx of the Nordics, the Saxons (from Nordalbingia), Angels, Jutes. Could this populations/tribes at that time (4th/5th century AD) from the Northsea side of Germany and Denmark already be influenced by the N1c from the Eastsea?
The old anthroplogist suspect 'East Baltic' phenotype features along this tribes. But could be projection.
 
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