Paleolithic and Mesolithic migrations in Europe and Siberia

[Northener]

The autosomal signals can be just +/-1000 years as the Germanic and Finnic connections where extensive and mostly women where exchanged as part of the trade based contacts, I would look at the mtdna lines as soon as the tests come more accurate.

Sharp!
From the 7/8 th century onwards 'Frisian' became in Europe synoniem with 'trader' and especially slave trade....
Otherwise: where there also 'power' so 'political' network connections between North and East sea? Or different horizons?

 

[Northener]

Interesting Johen, could explain the aDNA connection with Ust-Ushim....I guess.

 

[Ukko]

Thanks!!
Migration period and/or Viking age.....mmmm for England I guess both, for Northern Netherlands I guess mostly the Migration Period.
You must know there are two significant parts in the Northern Netherlands:
a. Inland, higher sandy territory ('Saxon') this part is fully integrated in the oldest population developments of Northwest Germany and Southern Scandinavia, so Ertebølle (Swifterbant), Funnelbeaker, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Nordic Bronze Age. The last on could be interesting because about 1600 BC there was a heavy influence of the Nordics, see this, with the magnificent title, 'the end of the Nordic rainbow' http://rjh.ub.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/article/view/25026
But I guess reading your posting 1600 BC is to early for a N1c influence from the NE to the NW?
b. Coastal, wetland territory ('Frisian') people inhabited these areas about 500 BC, at the end of the Roman period, about 3/4 th century AD a severe population decline, followed by a very clear influx of the Nordics, the Saxons (from Nordalbingia), Angels, Jutes. Could this populations/tribes at that time (4th/5th century AD) from the Northsea side of Germany and Denmark already be influenced by the N1c from the Eastsea?
The old anthroplogist suspect 'East Baltic' phenotype features along this tribes. But could be projection.

We know from autosomal and Y-dna that Finns are partly Frisian, Saxon, Jutish so the North Sea connection is real.
The sama trade routes where in use from Bronze Age to the Hansa, just people running it at particular times changed.
From the eastern side of the Baltic Sea there where three routes that connected in to this North Sea-Baltic Sea network.
Gulf of Finland, Gulf of Riga and the Curonian Lagoon, all of these get concentrations of N1c lines after its appearence in to the region.
Now we just need to date it closer so we can understand the context within it happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorestad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks

 

[Northener]

We know from autosomal and Y-dna that Finns are partly Frisian, Saxon, Jutish so the North Sea connection is real.
The sama trade routes where in use from Bronze Age to the Hansa, just people running it at particular times changed.
From the eastern side of the Baltic Sea there where three routes that connected in to this North Sea-Baltic Sea network.
Gulf of Finland, Gulf of Riga and the Curonian Lagoon, all of these get concentrations of N1c lines after its appearence in to the region.
Now we just need to date it closer so we can understand the context within it happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorestad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks

“The developing society of the Mare Balticum region was certainly not a national culture in the modern sense. The Danes, the Frisians, and the Rus operating there were a multiethnic, multilingual, and nonterritorial community composed of nomads of the sea and of urban dwellers in partly eastern, and partly polis towns and trading settlements. Confirming the theory that the market as an economic organization is the creation of traders and not of farmers or artisans, the Rus and Frisians appear as international merchants. In this kind of professional society of a “lower” culture, there is as yet no place for a literary or sacred language, the basis of a “higher” culture. In urban trading settlements, different languages served different functions. The vernacular was the medium of communication within the family and clan, while at least two or more linguae francae were reserved to referential usage. In short, a professional society developed a low-level, professional culture that was bound neither to a specific territory nor to a religion that might be expressed through a sacred, written language”, Omeljan Pritsak, The Origin of the Rus’ (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press 1981): 27.

Probably the Rus were mostly Scandinavian with Slavs and Finns joined to them over the course of years of settlement in today’s Russia, but the number of newcomers from Sweden probably was always small in relation to the native Slavs and Finno-Ugrian-speaking inhabitants. Sometimes the word “Viking”, “Varangian”, and “Rus” are used interchangeably, but the first term was applied mainly to those Scandinavians from Norway and Denmark who behaved like pirates rather than merchants. The Rus or Varangians, on the other hand, were primarily traders, although not averse to plunder. Attempts to differentiate between the two designations have led nowhere, so we may consider the two as synonymous. The Rus had come to the east in the eighth century and had established themselves in Ladoga in the north as their principal settlement, but they later transferred to Novgorod. Then they moved south on the Dnieper River, and Kiev became their main town. As early as 908, they had raided Constantinople across the Baltic Sea. By the time of Ibn Fadlan’s trip, the Rus had been well established in Novgorod, Kiev, and elsewhere, so those who came to the Bulghars to trade may have come from any Rus settlement, “although”, Frye writes, “those described by Ibn Fadlan, we may guess, came from the north down rivers from the Baltic” Those already settled in towns such as Novgorod probably would not have been so “wild” and “uncultured” as our author depicts them.

https://www.academia.edu/2390360/En...adlan_s_account_to_Michael_Crichton_s_Fiction

 

[MOESAN]

^

Moreover N people in Hongshan(west Liao) was significantly different from O3 people, even if N and O are genetically similar. The author mentioned not just "different", but "significantly different". so I think Hongshag N people admixture would be similar to okunevo people NO admixture, not to east asian admixture.

Have you percentages? this map uses very too close colours so I cannot interpret it. Thanks by advance.

 

[Megalophias]

Have you percentages?

Miaozigou: 100% (3/3) N(xN1c1-Tat, N1c2a1-M128)
Halahaigou: 100% (12/12) N(xN1c1-Tat) - 8 of them not M128, 4 no call
Niuheliang: 17% (1/6) C, 17% (1/6) O3, 67% (4/6) N-M241(xN1c1-Tat) - 2 not M128, 2 no call
Taosi: 25% (1/4) O3a2c1-M134, 75% (3/4) O3-M122(xM7, M134)
Daxi: 6% (1/16) O2a1-M95, 6% (1/16) O3-M122(xM7, M134), 31% (5/16) O3a2b-M7, remainder (57%) other or not determined
Maqiao + Xindili: 64% (9/14) O1a-M119, 36% (5/14) other or not determined

 

[epoch]

I found articles that suggest that after LGM and probably the Younger Dryas huge lakes were formed in Siberia, of which we don't have a good idea how large they were, that may have served as a barrier for further contact between east and west at some points in time. Although these lakes also existed when mammoths migrated over the mammoth steppe. But one can imagine that during the great melts the discharge got so big it formed a barrier.

http://www.folk.uib.no/ngljm/PDF_files/Mangerud-et-al01.pdf

 

[Rethel]

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