Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 444

Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

    See:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html

    George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
    Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks

    "Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

    Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. " These were also all people from rural villages.

    That's the way it should be done.

    ADMIXTURE results:
    The Peloponnese population is south of Tuscans, and Sicily and the Peloponnese overlap. It's what I have been proposing for years, but I think some anthrofora posters are going to need smelling salts. :)

    It would have been nice to see a comparison to someplace like Campania. I wonder if there would be total overlap?

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

    "Sicilians and Italians serve as a bridge between Peloponneseans and other European populations (Basque, Andalusians and French). Slavic populations are placed far away from the Peloponneseans as are the Near Eastern populations. The latter are connected to the Peloponnesus via the islands of Crete and the Dodecanese."

    " The ADMIXTURE analysis of Figure 1e shows that the Maniots and Tsakones are clearly separated from each other and from all other Peloponnesean populations."


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    778
    Points
    5,855
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,855, Level: 22
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 195
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I believe that for Italians they think Southern Italians. No doubts that Peloponnesians have loads of overlap with Sicily and Southern Italy, loads of cities of Magna Grecia and Sikelia were from Messenia or Corinto just to say.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    3,504
    Points
    32,241
    Level
    55
    Points: 32,241, Level: 55
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 809
    Overall activity: 28.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Good study, but too bad that they did not have any Proto-Slavic and Early Slavic ancient DNA samples.

    Instead they had to rely on comparisons with modern populations. This might change soon, because samples from 900s AD Poland will be published. It would be even better to have Slavic samples from Late Iron Age and from the Migration Period.

    The main problem is that cremation was widely practiced by Early Slavs, inhumations were rare at that time.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    last-resort's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-17
    Posts
    83
    Points
    567
    Level
    6
    Points: 567, Level: 6
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 183
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (R-L2)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellenic
    Country: United States



    >>Cannot post quote here<< For those unfamiliar, the Maniots, as described here, are those people on the Mani peninsula ('deep Mani') and the population on the west and east sides of the Tayetos mountain. Edit: This is southeast (Mani) or east and northeast (the Tayetos) from the modern town of Kalamata (of the superb olive fame), and birthplace of the Greek independence revolution. FYI The Tsakones are on the east side of the Peloponnesus in apparently a somewhat isolated area.

    My maternal line is West Tayetos (classified as 'Maniot' -that is, part of - late in the study), so this is definitely interesting. I have cousins who are in the paternal line.

    >>Cannot post quote here<< All this leaves open the composition of Haplogroups between Maniots and any 'ancient DNA' that can be recovered.

    Also, it should be noted - regarding 'the ancient Greek religion', there is a decidedly pagan festival each year prior to Greek Orthodox Christian Lent (Triodion) in the village of Nedousa, which is West Tayetos. That town had a 'slavic' name, Megali Anastasova, until the 1920s.

    Also, I read elsewhere that the Slavs on the Tayetos were used by the Ottomans to guard certain passes there. I think it might be normal that such a role would isolate them from the mass of the 'regular' inhabitants.

    My only regret with the study is it would be greatly useful to compare these areas with the Albanians. The Albanians of FYROM (so-called, 'macedonians') are a huge nuisance with any Greek oriented site. Perhaps someone can take the study and do that comparison.

    Thank you Angela for posting this. I presume your interest is the Italian commonalities. I think you should be satisfied, cousin.
    Last edited by last-resort; 13-03-17 at 14:28.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    306
    Points
    927
    Level
    7
    Points: 927, Level: 7
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 32.0%


    Country: Cuba



    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    There was I think in 1923 a huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Greeks took about 1.5 million Anatolian Greeks and resettled them in mainland, including Populousness. That was 40% of population of Greece of that time. So no genetic study of Greeks tells the truth about genetic composition of Greeks of Middle ages when Fallmerayer visited Greece. To say now that Peloponnese's was not touched by resettlement of populations from Anatolia is not the truth. When Fallmerayer visited Greece he landed by ship on port of Pireus close to present day Athens. The first thing he realized was that local population spoke no Greek. He was greeted by hordes of Arvanites who spoke no Greek. Also the Vlah population of of Greece was significant. They might have composed 10% of total Greek population. He famously said something like: I guess I have to visit cemeteries. There is where the real Greeks lay. Unless the Anatolian Greeks have the same genes like the one Peloponesses have I don't see how this study could be true? I come to believe the expression: Don't believe everything you read!

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Totally irrelevant point. The genetics of these samples is dated to 1860.

    People should read papers before commenting on them, or at least read the summaries provided by other posters. They should also engage whatever brains they possess.

    "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."




    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    162
    Points
    3,778
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,778, Level: 17
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 72
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    See:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html

    George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
    Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks

    "Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

    Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...
    Well 0.2 to 14.4% is a pretty massive range. Unless the upper range is an outlier, I wouldn't say Slavic ancestry is non-existant by any stretch. Some groups in England are likely barely even 14.4% Anglo-Saxon, so let's keep this in perspective.

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Well 0.2 to 14.4% is a pretty massive range. Unless the upper range is an outlier, I wouldn't say Slavic ancestry is non-existant by any stretch. Some groups in England are likely barely even 14.4% Anglo-Saxon, so let's keep this in perspective.
    Who said it's non-existent? I neither read that nor claimed it.

    Did you read the paper? Did you skip over the context? They're responding to nonsense claims by German "scholars" of the past.

    The fact is that the Greeks have some Slavic admixture, just like the Sicilians have admixture from Central Europe and northwestern Europe.

    No one is claiming they're a totally unchanged population. You missed the point.

    In case everyone missed it, there's a lot of substructure in Greece, as there is in Italy, which is why a few samples from someplace in Thessaly was not ever going to give a complete picture. It would be like judging all Italian genetics on the basis of the Valle D'Aosta.

    This should also be an object lesson for the fact that results posted by various internet people, even if not cherry-picked, can be very misleading. Stick to scientifically, randomly selected samples from a broad range of areas, and hopefully a good number of them.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    778
    Points
    5,855
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,855, Level: 22
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 195
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Anatolian Greeks do not plot with Southern Italians and Sicilians but close to Armenians and Assyrians and Peloponneso was almost untouched by them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...taLausanne.jpg
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    >>Cannot post quote here<< For those unfamiliar, the Maniots, as described here, are those people on the Mani peninsular ('deep Mani') and the population on the west and east sides of the Tayetos mountain. This is east (Mani) or northeast (the Tayetos) from the modern town of Kalamata (of the superb olive fame), and birthplace of the Greek independence revolution. FYI The Tsakones are on the east side of the Peloponnesus in apparently a somewhat isolated area.

    My maternal line is West Tayetos (classified as 'Maniot' -that is, part of - late in the study), so this is definitely interesting. I have cousins who are in the paternal line.

    >>Cannot post quote here<< All this leaves open the composition of Haplogroups between Maniots and any 'ancient DNA' that can be recovered.

    Also, it should be noted - regarding 'the ancient Greek religion', there is a decidedly pagan festival each year prior to Greek Orthodox Christian Lent in the village of Nedusa, which is West Tayetos. That town had a 'slavic' name, Megali Anastasova, until the 1920s.

    Also, I read elsewhere that the Slavs on the Tayetos were used by the Ottomans to guard certain passes there. I think it might be normal that such a role would isolate them from the mass of the 'regular' inhabitants.

    My only regret with the study is it would be greatly useful to compare these areas with the Albanians. The Albanians of FYROM (so-called, 'macedonians') are a huge nuisance with any Greek oriented site. Perhaps someone can take the study and do that comparison.

    Thank you Angela for posting this. I presume your interest is the Italian commonalities. I think you should be satisfied, cousin.
    Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)

    My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.

    To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    last-resort's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-17
    Posts
    83
    Points
    567
    Level
    6
    Points: 567, Level: 6
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 183
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (R-L2)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellenic
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My understanding is that Mussolini closed the Greek language schools in Italy in the 1920s. I also read that even today, Griko has not been entirely eradicated.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    last-resort's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-17
    Posts
    83
    Points
    567
    Level
    6
    Points: 567, Level: 6
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 183
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (R-L2)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellenic
    Country: United States



    Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    306
    Points
    927
    Level
    7
    Points: 927, Level: 7
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 32.0%


    Country: Cuba



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

  15. #15
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    778
    Points
    5,855
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,855, Level: 22
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 195
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Turkish were mostly converted locals.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  16. #16
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    778
    Points
    5,855
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,855, Level: 22
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 195
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Well 0.2 to 14.4% is a pretty massive range. Unless the upper range is an outlier, I wouldn't say Slavic ancestry is non-existant by any stretch. Some groups in England are likely barely even 14.4% Anglo-Saxon, so let's keep this in perspective.
    I think 14.4 is the maximum individual (I didn't find the average).
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  17. #17
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    778
    Points
    5,855
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,855, Level: 22
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 195
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)

    My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.

    To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)
    Me too, una faccia una razza is real, Greek ancestry in South Italy but we don't forget Roman/Italic settlements to Greek world. The Eastern Roman Empire survived until 1453 ;)
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    704
    Points
    2,770
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,770, Level: 15
    Level completed: 7%, Points required for next Level: 280
    Overall activity: 33.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by last-resort View Post
    Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.
    In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.

    FEARFUL HISTORY

    Demetrios Horologas
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
    Mark Twain

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    last-resort's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-17
    Posts
    83
    Points
    567
    Level
    6
    Points: 567, Level: 6
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 183
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (R-L2)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellenic
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I cannot post a link, but Google (search) for 'Greek War of Independence and its Toll on Turks' You should find an article prepared by the Turkish American Coalition. It says that that there 'was nearly 30 thousands (sic) Muslims living in the Peloponnese in March 1821' (the start of the war). "A month later, ...there was hardly any.' Further down a British author counts '20,000 (Muslim) souls'. This is a TURKISH article. The transfer largely had to do with Muslims in territory Greece gained since Independence - Greece's territory expanded a lot - also documented in that article. The Greek war of independence continued until 1829, the year before the German visited.

    If you need to make a point, try to not lie so blatantly. I feel good that Greeks are hated. It makes them and me feel special. DuPidh, say something positive about YOUR people. Try that for a change.

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.

    FEARFUL HISTORY

    Demetrios Horologas
    If I'm understanding you correctly, I'm surprised and disappointed both. Genetics is genetics, for goodness sakes. It's time to let go of all this noxious politics.

    @Hauteville,

    I agree. There was definitely Italian gene flow into the islands ruled by Venezia and Genova and during the days of Byzantium as well.
    Last edited by Angela; 09-03-17 at 03:47.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    last-resort's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-17
    Posts
    83
    Points
    567
    Level
    6
    Points: 567, Level: 6
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 183
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (R-L2)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellenic
    Country: United States



    It appears that this study put the lie to Mr. Horologas' assertions.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Posts
    3,430
    Points
    29,056
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,056, Level: 52
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 694
    Overall activity: 66.0%


    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

    I suggest read correct the Greek revolt from Orlov's to 1828
    and seek the batlle of Lalla by Kolokotronis



    Anyway

    The Slavic admixture

    The SLavic admixture in Greece as area not as nation reached Peloponese
    we have toponyms like Helmos ex-Αροανεια and historical facts, the 2 tribe are (Ν)Εζεριται Μελιγγοι (Ν)ezer Meliggoi
    they were absorved by time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

    Personally I always believed that there is a max 8-15% Slavic admixture at total Greek area (not from minor Asian) population except Crete and islands West and East.


    A very small Slavic admixture might also pass from some Vlach-Aromani tribes (that descend from North Balkans) some Arbanites and from Byzantine guards
    remember some Palaiologoi married Slavic brides
    I repeat a small cause these tribes (Aromani etc ) are not considered Slavic but living nearby with South Slavic populations, as also some other Northern DNA like East Vikings.


    about Peloponese and Ottomans,


    Before Orlov's revolt 1770 estimated around 20 000
    After Orlov's are about 40 000 due to Ottoman (Turk and Albanian) army
    10 000 Albanian Army (Ottoman citizenship and Muslim religion = Turk to every census) came to Peloponese,
    they went away after the battle of Lalla, and Kolokotronis struggle, to North to my Makedonia to Platamon, for stop but could not stay, so went East by ships, many ships sumk and raids against them by Diamantis Nikolaou.
    not to be misunderstood, Albanians not Arbanites,
    after June 1821 not a single Muslim existed at Peloponese except the city of Patrai
    many descriptions are written about the crimes comited by Albanians against Greeks from 1770 to 1820 and Then by Greeks after 1821
    but it is certain that when Greek state stablished not 1 muslim Albanian or Turk existed at Peloponese,

    about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones

    their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian,
    in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language


    West European admixture Latinocracy

    Peloponese due to her position had enough population traffic with West Europe,
    Crusaders Francs Catalans Italians etc created castles and small kingdoms
    Peloponese is affected by Francocracy Φραγκοκρατια from 1204 to 1430 (FranKs, Knights, Navarresse- Magna Societas)
    and many parts/castles from Enetocracy Ενετοκρατια (Italy mainly Venice)


    ROman era


    at the Roman era Achaia and Corinthos (North Peloponese) was a significant center for Roman world and army


    Now
    I do not know how many marks left the above, countable on fingers or a consirable % , But these I believe are the main known devastations to Peloponese,
    ok maybe I lost one,
    Last edited by Yetos; 09-03-17 at 02:11.
    ΠΑΣΑ ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗ ΧΩΡΙΖΟΜΕΝΗ ΑΡΕΤΗΣ
    ΠΑΝΟΥΡΓΙΑ ΟΥ ΣΟΦΙΑ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ
    ΑΡΙΣΤΟΤΕΛΗΣ

  23. #23
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?
    It's time to retire these fossil studies from the 1800s.

    A very large and reputable study was done of Balkan populations. There was no appreciable genetic difference between Bosnian Croats (Catholics), Bosnian Serbs (Orthodox), and Bosniaks (Muslim). I'm sure some people don't like to dwell on that given the idiocy they're used to spouting and the atrocities they committed. Do you have any idea why? It's because those Muslims descend from people of the Balkans who converted to Islam. Get it?

    See: Koracevic et al
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

    Balkan genetics.PNG

    Also, it was you who pointed out there was a huge transfer of people in the 1920s between Greece and Turkey. Of course, contrary to what you asserted, that would have had no effect on the genetics of the study participants, which you failed to realize. Muslims went to Anatolia and Greek Orthodox came back to Greece.

    So, a lot of Greeks who had converted to Islam moved to Greece, as well as the actual "genetic" Turks. That's where all those people went. That's also why there are so many younger Turks who show up as pretty Greek, in addition to the population processes that affected far western Turkey. What is so difficult about this?

    Do you need another example? German descent and German speaking villages existed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, and no, there wasn't any appreciable level of intermarriage, and I know that from people from those villages. They had their own schools, their own stores, their own churches. After the second World War many of them went right back to Germany.

    The Ashkenazim are another example. They spent hundreds of years surrounded by Poles and Russians and Lithuanians, and how much gene flow did they acquire? IBD doesn't lie: astonishingly little.

    Stop thinking that Europe was like the U.S. It wasn't then and it isn't now.

    This is the trouble with trying to make sense of population genetics without any background in the history of the countries being discussed, not to mention when bizarre agendas are involved.

    If you really believed some of this anthrofora nonsense, you've been taken for a ride. The modern people of the old Magna Graecia are extremely similar to the modern people of mainland Greece. Deal with it.
    Last edited by Angela; 09-03-17 at 07:32.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    7,704
    Points
    80,892
    Level
    88
    Points: 80,892, Level: 88
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 1,058
    Overall activity: 99.4%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the Peloponnese with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others. Those groups are indeed on a cline, but the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians.

    My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?

    Greek Genetics.jpg

    Click to enlarge.

    The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia.

    Are they identical? No, they're not, but they're pretty darn close. What else would you expect for goodness sakes, when so much of Magna Graecia was settled from there?
    Last edited by Angela; 09-03-17 at 03:52. Reason: Spelling-I'm OCD about it.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-01-17
    Posts
    63
    Points
    509
    Level
    5
    Points: 509, Level: 5
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 41
    Overall activity: 27.0%


    Country: Austria



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Fallmerayer, really? There are people in 2017 who take his wishwash seriously? Already in 1834, four years after he published his ... (whatever), he was removed from his teacher job, because nobody wanted to get his children educated by this deadhead. Now people are still debating his poppy seed induced phantasms? Biedermeier "scholars" - eek!

Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •