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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    My Pardon but again I am still thinking your words could be translate as I did.
    Now you're going to tell me what I intended to say? Do we have another mind reader here? There's a big lottery coming up. Can we go halves? :)

    What are you seiing when you look at the chart?
    This is the discussion:

    Spartan Owl made the following comment:
    " i also noticed that in paschou research that oreo cookie mentioned s.e lakonia matches better with tuscans and sicilians with cretans in the admixture analysis."

    My response was to post the Admixture analysis from Paschou et al.

    Attachment 8564

    This version is easier to read:
    Paschou et al Admixture analysis 2.jpg

    The differences between the populations we're discussing are, in many instances, very minor, imo, and basically show a cline from those two islands to Crete and then continuing all the way to the North Italians. However, it also seems from this Admixture analysis Sicilians are not Cretans, and Peloponnesians are not Tuscans. In fact, the closest population to Tuscans, other than Northern Italians, are Macedonians, and translated to a PCA they would still be a bit "south" of them. Serbia is informative because it's also on that cline, which means using it or populations like it as proxies for "Slavic" gene flow would be very difficult. Do you disagree?

    It also has to be kept in mind that Spartan Owl is referring to the Admixture analysis in Paschou et al, where the S.E. Laconia sample is not from Mani or Taygetos or any of those areas. They might not be that different, but we can't be sure.

    As for the rest, no one is ignoring the Slav migration, and that includes the authors of this paper.

    As I've said repeatedly, we really need ancient dna.


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    angela you are probably right but in the data provided by sikeliot in the apricity seemed like it.
    Thats sure for k=2 k=3 k=4 and maybe for what it should be k=8 (i do not know if those data are correct)
    Of course i do not claiming they are the same people and for sure the differences are minimal but whith pointing that s.e lakonians are closer to tuscans than to sicilians i was responding to the claims that every peloponnesean that did not match to the genetic profile of the sicilians must be of slavic descent.
    I had lived in neapolis for a couple of years and i know the region like the back of my hand.But i was always of the impresion that boeus whas an achean as most of the archeological sites are pre-doric sorry for that.(i hope that you did not miss the explanation that i gave for the various taygetos populations).
    As for the admixture analysis am here to learn from the most experienced and not to impose my opininons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I was going to make a long answer, but in the end i decided for a short answer.

    It's a short video with subs in English(subs start after 20 seconds). In the end of the video there is an interesting quote from Odissea Elitis and is the second greek winner of the Noble Prize in Literatura quoted by me in this thread. I hope this time nobody consider him insignificant.
    Correct,as
    Correct as Ελυτης said Arbeler says the same, Επιστρωσεις, meaning coatings, plaster.
    Arbanites Slavs Romans, Ottomans all are coatings comparing the mass of the wall
    No body denies that, but from a coating to wall comparing the wall is a long decimals,
    No body denies the admixtures, but from that to fallmayer's total anihilation is years of running with speed light.
    Last edited by Yetos; 20-03-17 at 21:11.
    ΠΑΣΑ ΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗ ΧΩΡΙΖΟΜΕΝΗ ΑΡΕΤΗΣ
    ΠΑΝΟΥΡΓΙΑ ΟΥ ΣΟΦΙΑ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ
    ΑΡΙΣΤΟΤΕΛΗΣ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Correct,as
    Correct as Ελυτης said Arbeler says the same, Επιστρωσεις, meaning coatings, plaster.
    Arbanites Slavs Romans, Ottomans all are coatings comparing the miss of the wall
    No body denies that, but from a coating to wall comparing the wall is a long decimals,
    No body denies the admixtures, but from that to fallmayer's total anihilation is years of running with speed light.
    I get your point, and I know you're responding to someone else, but Albanians and their similarity to Greeks and their influence on Greek genetics is not the subject of this thread. That discussion just takes us way off course into things for which there is no genetic proof as of yet.


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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    angela you are probably right but in the data provided by sikeliot in the apricity seemed like it.
    Thats sure for k=2 k=3 k=4 and maybe for what it should be k=8 (i do not know if those data are correct)
    Of course i do not claiming they are the same people and for sure the differences are minimal but whith pointing that s.e lakonians are closer to tuscans than to sicilians i was responding to the claims that every peloponnesean that did not match to the genetic profile of the sicilians must be of slavic descent.
    I had lived in neapolis for a couple of years and i know the region like the back of my hand.But i was always of the impresion that boeus whas an achean as most of the archeological sites are pre-doric sorry for that.(i hope that you did not miss the explanation that i gave for the various taygetos populations).
    As for the admixture analysis am here to learn from the most experienced and not to impose my opininons.
    No problem, Spartan Owl. I figured that's where you got that interpretation of the Admixture analysis. That's why I suggested that you take a look at it yourself. K-3 and K-4 are not informative for these purposes; you have to look at 6,7, and 8, and particularly 8.

    According to the findings of this paper, the "Slavic" ancestry, really the similarity to Slavic populations like Poland etc. is present everywhere in the Peloponnesus except perhaps Deep Mani. I wish people on the internet wouldn't post if they haven't read the paper and understood that. I don't know how similar the East Lakonia sample would be to them genetically. I take it you think they'd be pretty similar to those from Deep Mani if a comparison had been done?

    Spartan Owl: i was responding to the claims that every peloponnesean that did not match to the genetic profile of the sicilians must be of slavic descent.

    Perhaps you misunderstood what was meant. If someone really said that then they either didn't read the paper or they are distorting the findings.

    The similarity to the actual "Slavic" speaking tribes who moved into the Peloponnesus we won't know until we get ancient dna.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    This version is easier to read:
    Paschou et al Admixture analysis 2.jpg

    The differences between the populations we're discussing are, in many instances, very minor, imo, and basically show a cline from those two islands to Crete and then continuing all the way to the North Italians. However, it also seems from this Admixture analysis Sicilians are not Cretans, and Peloponnesians are not Tuscans.
    This chart shows a small North African component among Sicilians not present in Crete, slightly less of the pink component peaking in Palestine, and everything else is roughly the same. The pink Druze component is lower in both Peloponnesians and Laconians, and the Peloponnesians have more of the blue component peaking in NE Europe (nothing here inconsistent with the new study).

    It appears Macedonian Greeks are those closer to Tuscans to me, too.

    With that said, I am unsure which version of the table I posted on Apricity and if it led to misleading information on this site being repeated on my behalf, I apologize and it was not my intent. If my interpretation over there was incorrect I'd quickly admit it and correct it.

    Question for Angela: based on what you EXPECT from all the evidence we have thus far: what do you think ancient samples from Greece would show? If it is irrelevant and you do not know, that is fine. I just wanted to know your view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ... Sicilians are not Cretans, and Peloponnesians are not Tuscans...
    Shock!!! With all those arguments I was already convinced that ...
    Seriously, statistics has become here almost the same as the oracle of Delphi. Although Pythia always tells the truth, people run in their doom, just because they don't waste a second thought on what she said exactly.
    ... Serbia is informative because it's also on that cline, which means using it or populations like it as proxies for "Slavic" gene flow would be very difficult. Do you disagree?
    Well, Balkan is Balkan, there's no chance to deny it, and whoever entered this region, forced into motion after Mother Earth made some big blurp, he will finally end at the coast, and especially in the southern Peloponnese, where he finds the sign-board "Stop or swim!" Every people which might have been around at the Balkans over millennia, you will always find their genes in this region.

    What I wanted to see in this paper, how much of the Morean genes are Balkan, and how much unique elements (that is ... greek eventually?) could be squeezed out of the data. Instead Stammy just tried to disprove this storyteller, a task which has already made sufficiently someAlbert Thumb a hundred years ago. (Nice detail, that he found the Slavic admixture to be between 0.8 and 16.5 %, pretty close to the values of this new paper, just by counting names.)
    ... As I've said repeatedly, we really need ancient dna.
    Seems that the museums don't have enough bones and teeth. On the other hand, I would be a bit careful at least with Mykenian DNA. Mythical genealogy describes the Achaean gens as a mixture of Egypt and Levantine people. In the graves of the rulers of that time may therefore be no real Greeks either.

    Probably there is even a solution with modern people. The islands of the Aegean sea seem to be relatively untouched by non-greek populations. Slavic pirates hardly settled, just a few Albanians were known to hop the islands. Only the Venetians had a few real settlements, and that's documented. So, if I had the insatiable urge to find the Perikles, I'd try it there. Doesn't hurt at all, by the way - we are in serious lack of Aegean coverage anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    This chart shows a small North African component among Sicilians not present in Crete, slightly less of the pink component peaking in Palestine, and everything else is roughly the same. The pink Druze component is lower in both Peloponnesians and Laconians, and the Peloponnesians have more of the blue component peaking in NE Europe (nothing here inconsistent with the new study).

    It appears Macedonian Greeks are those closer to Tuscans to me, too.

    With that said, I am unsure which version of the table I posted on Apricity and if it led to misleading information on this site being repeated on my behalf, I apologize and it was not my intent. If my interpretation over there was incorrect I'd quickly admit it and correct it.

    Question for Angela: based on what you EXPECT from all the evidence we have thus far: what do you think ancient samples from Greece would show? If it is irrelevant and you do not know, that is fine. I just wanted to know your view.
    I guess you didn't read my post upthread. The "Peloponnesian" sample in that Admixture graph comes from one place in the Peloponnesus. You can't know what that graph would show if all of the Peloponnesus samples were included. We also don't know how close the S.E.Laconia samples are to the Peloponnesian samples in the subject paper.

    If you're going to get hung up on details, then include all the details, or you're going to mislead people.

    Plus, if I have to get out a microscope to find the differences, am I to consider them of great significance? Sorry, you can't save your thesis this way.

    Yes, you misled people on the apricity or wherever by just posting low K admixture. If you're going to draw conclusions from Admixture you first have to understand how it works.

    I don't know what the ancient samples from Greece will show. It will clarify a lot of things, but we're going to have to keep in mind that the samples will come from elites, and they'll have to be analyzed by people who know what they're doing. I'd be surprised if there's no change at all from the Classical Era Greeks to today's Greeks, I'd be surprised if there's a huge change as well. Other than that I don't know; I leave the crystal ball gazing to others.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I guess you didn't read my post upthread. The "Peloponnesian" sample in that Admixture graph comes from one place in the Peloponnesus. You can't know what that graph would show if all of the Peloponnesus samples were included. We also don't know how close the S.E.Laconia samples are to the Peloponnesian samples in the subject paper.

    If you're going to get hung up on details, then include all the details, or you're going to mislead people.

    Plus, if I have to get out a microscope to find the differences, am I to consider them of great significance? Sorry, you can't save your thesis this way.

    Yes, you misled people on the apricity or wherever by just posting low K admixture. If you're going to draw conclusions from Admixture you first have to understand how it works.

    I don't know what the ancient samples from Greece will show. It will clarify a lot of things, but we're going to have to keep in mind that the samples will come from elites, and they'll have to be analyzed by people who know what they're doing. I'd be surprised if there's no change at all from the Classical Era Greeks to today's Greeks, I'd be surprised if there's a huge change as well. Other than that I don't know; I leave the crystal ball gazing to others.
    Understood. My issue is often jumping to the charts and not reading as much as I should about the sample sources, sample sizes, and so on. That is my own downfall and I will do better in the future. It was not purposeful on my end.

    What is likely to me is differences existed across different regions of Greece even in "Ancient Greek" times (given proximity to Thrace, the fact of aboriginal populations on the islands before Hellenization, and so on), but again we'll have to wait to see. I generally find when there are conflicting theories, the truth often comes out somewhere in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    Shock!!! With all those arguments I was already convinced that ...
    Seriously, statistics has become here almost the same as the oracle of Delphi. Although Pythia always tells the truth, people run in their doom, just because they don't waste a second thought on what she said exactly.

    Well, Balkan is Balkan, there's no chance to deny it, and whoever entered this region, forced into motion after Mother Earth made some big blurp, he will finally end at the coast, and especially in the southern Peloponnese, where he finds the sign-board "Stop or swim!" Every people which might have been around at the Balkans over millennia, you will always find their genes in this region.

    What I wanted to see in this paper, how much of the Morean genes are Balkan, and how much unique elements (that is ... greek eventually?) could be squeezed out of the data. Instead Stammy just tried to disprove this storyteller, a task which has already made sufficiently someAlbert Thumb a hundred years ago. (Nice detail, that he found the Slavic admixture to be between 0.8 and 16.5 %, pretty close to the values of this new paper, just by counting names.)

    Seems that the museums don't have enough bones and teeth. On the other hand, I would be a bit careful at least with Mykenian DNA. Mythical genealogy describes the Achaean gens as a mixture of Egypt and Levantine people. In the graves of the rulers of that time may therefore be no real Greeks either.

    Probably there is even a solution with modern people. The islands of the Aegean sea seem to be relatively untouched by non-greek populations. Slavic pirates hardly settled, just a few Albanians were known to hop the islands. Only the Venetians had a few real settlements, and that's documented. So, if I had the insatiable urge to find the Perikles, I'd try it there. Doesn't hurt at all, by the way - we are in serious lack of Aegean coverage anyway.
    You're having fun with it, but people have been saying exactly that. :)

    It's as if the rules for vampires didn't exist, and no matter how many times that Nordicist German "historian" gets stabbed in the heart they bring him back to life again. Maybe it's like zombies, and you have to chop off his head or he won't die. :)

    If I were to speculate ahead of the evidence, I'd bet it will probably turn out to be 20% only in Macedonia and some places in Thessaly. For years when people were drawing all these conclusions about Greek genetics from one sample taken in Thessaloniki I kept saying that there was a cline in Greece and that particular sample wasn't representative. Virtually no one listened, mostly because it didn't fit their agenda to consider that. The same is true for the IBS sample for Spain.

    I don't give much credence to myths like that. Plus, the "Egyptian" thing was already debunked for Crete.

    A Yale professor of Greek history would agree with your last comment, as that you tube clip I posted shows. He maintains that the "core" of Greece is the Aegean islands.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    A Yale professor of Greek history would agree with your last comment, as that you tube clip I posted shows. He maintains that the "core" of Greece is the Aegean islands.
    I wouldn't be so sure about this. The Greek islands were populated by many non-Greek populations (Carians, Minoans, and so on) and were colonized by the mainland the same way Cyprus, Sicily, and southern Italy were. Without ancient samples we cannot say if the people there were ever mostly 'Greek' by blood, or Hellenized. They may have changed comparatively less over the millennia, though.

    Also, I would be surprised if all the Aegean islands are genetically the same as one another. There may be a gradient there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure about this. The Greek islands were populated by many non-Greek populations (Carians, Minoans, and so on) and were colonized by the mainland the same way Cyprus, Sicily, and southern Italy were. Without ancient samples we cannot say if the people there were ever mostly 'Greek' by blood, or Hellenized. They may have changed comparatively less over the millennia, though.

    Also, I would be surprised if all the Aegean islands are genetically the same as one another. There may be a gradient there too.
    There is a difference between islands and the continent. The amount of occupations by different ethnics is much lower. Many continental folks are no seamen, therefore don't travel by sea; and islands have a limited capacity. Populations are often changed completely, if at all. Only the large islands may have several different populations. So the chances are good that an island remains 'indigenous', or Greek or something else. The peopling by the Greeks is well documented, you know which home polis was doing it.

    By comparing one island with the other you will see the pattern, you can point to the characteristics of certain Aegean populations, there are not many unknowns, so you can pinpoint the genetics of certain tribes to a good degree. That's not possible on the continent, where at least every hundert years another tribe runs over the country with mostly unknown population numbers and not always known periods of occupation/dominance etc. There is often such an intense mixing of populations that you can't define a certain tribe's genetic characteristics. That doesn't happen on islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    How much admixture with previous populations could have the Slavs when they enter until Peloponese when all this happens at max 2 generations 60-70 years?
    and surely endogamous until full Hellenization? isolated from the other Slavs.
    Eurogenes is accusing the study's authors of confirmation bias for not including South Slavic populations...and then is engaging in confirmation bias itself, by saying without proof that migrating Slavs absorbed lots of non-Slavic Balkan natives in their movements into Greece. This also could be fraught with problems, because without knowing how can we say which Balkan populations they were and how closely related they were to medieval populations of the Peloponnese?

    Then Eurogenes went full absurdity by posting a picture of a Greek soccer team and saying incoming medieval Slavs may have looked like them.

    Either way, this study looks solid to my layperson eyes, Balkan admixture implications notwithstanding. There have not been many genetic studies of Greek rural populations, especially those in the Peloponnese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc598 View Post
    There is a difference between islands and the continent. The amount of occupations by different ethnics is much lower. Many continental folks are no seamen, therefore don't travel by sea; and islands have a limited capacity. Populations are often changed completely, if at all. Only the large islands may have several different populations. So the chances are good that an island remains 'indigenous', or Greek or something else. The peopling by the Greeks is well documented, you know which home polis was doing it.

    By comparing one island with the other you will see the pattern, you can point to the characteristics of certain Aegean populations, there are not many unknowns, so you can pinpoint the genetics of certain tribes to a good degree. That's not possible on the continent, where at least every hundert years another tribe runs over the country with mostly unknown population numbers and not always known periods of occupation/dominance etc. There is often such an intense mixing of populations that you can't define a certain tribe's genetic characteristics. That doesn't happen on islands.
    That's why we find the most "conserved" genetic signals on islands like Sardinia or mountain valleys in the Alps. Even better is a remote, rather inaccessible region on an island, i.e. those Ogliastra samples from Sardegna. :)

    I don't think the Aegean Islands would be like that because there was traffic through there from antiquity. It would probably be much better than the plains of Thessaly certainly. If they do test in the Aegean I certainly hope that they test octogenarians, and not college students. We want samples that go back beyond the dislocations of the 20th century.

    Speaking of which polis settled which area, that lecture by the Yale professor is very interesting on that issue. He points out that northern Greece was "colonized" by areas in central Greece. As you say, we have a lot of information about which polis had the most contact with which area, including which island.

    Before people draw conclusions about "Greeks" from dna, they have to define that term and in particular have to determine the time period. "Greek" speakers weren't native to Greece. Once they arrived, over time, the populations mingled. So, which Greeks are people discussing? The ancient people of the Greek mainland and islands before the Mycenaeans, the Mycenaeans, the Dorians, the people of Classical Greece? Which parts of Classical Greece? How about the Greeks of the Roman period? What about the diaspora Greeks of the Roman period? It gets very complicated when you're not speaking of some isolated corner of Europe with limited contact with anyone beyond their own valley until virtually the modern era.

    I also don't know where this notion comes from that the people of Crete are so different from the people of the mainland, and it makes even less sense if they're talking about the people of the mainland before the Slavic migrations. People from Crete went to Greece in the Neolithic, and the Bronze Age migration from Asia Minor into Crete would have flowed on into the mainland. The Mycenaeans and the Minoans had a lot of contact, both in terms of trade and settlements. Based on admixture in Paschou et al, the people of Crete are not so very different from mainlanders even today.

    I suppose people do mean Pericles or someone very much like him. :) I'd like Sophocles, Euripides and Aeschylus myself, or, oh wait...Homer! Sapho too, and Plato, and Aristotle. My husband always wanted a time machine so he could go back and talk to Socrates.

    I don't think we're going to get them.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I was going to comment on the "Ancient Greek" or "true Greek" DNA but then Angela covered it for me. You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".

    If I would have to speculate, max I'd say this:

    E-V13 - Concentrated in the mountainous areas together with G and I2a, especially before the urbanization and expansion of many city states.
    J2a - More prevalent in the lowlands and coastal areas, possible at higher numbers in the Aegean islands and lower in mainland compared to today
    R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes

    Obviously by 400 BC this assumed dispersion "trend" would have changed as like I said more and more people were urbanized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I was going to comment on the "Ancient Greek" or "true Greek" DNA but then Angela covered it for me. You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".

    If I would have to speculate, max I'd say this:

    E-V13 - Concentrated in the mountainous areas together with G and I2a, especially before the urbanization and expansion of many city states.
    J2a - More prevalent in the lowlands and coastal areas, possible at higher numbers in the Aegean islands and lower in mainland compared to today
    R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes

    Obviously by 400 BC this assumed dispersion "trend" would have changed as like I said more and more people were urbanized.
    Actually, since we're guessing, my guess would be that the IE speaking peoples didn't at all replace the "indigenous" population. They didn't even replace them in Central Europe, why would they replace them in Greece? The only places where there was anything close to "replacement" was where the Neolithic/Chalcolithic people were few in number. Many places in the far north weren't populated at all.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes
    What we call Hellenes, what we call Greek language, what we call Classical Greece, is the result of the mingling between the Proto/Pre-Greeks and the IE Greeks.

    Most likely, though, the locals were actually much more in numbers.

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    @Sakattack

    You're basically saying what I already said. Are you just agreeing with me or what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ... that lecture by the Yale professor is very interesting on that issue.
    Now you have advertised Kagan the Sleeping Pill for the third time. So I listened for God's blessing, and yes I see - he dared to write off me :)

    ... Before people draw conclusions about "Greeks" from dna, they have to define that term and in particular have to determine the time period.
    Pretty much the same as with Slavs or with any other people. I think most Greek people of today would agree, if we were defining them as the people coming to 'sterea' Hellas and the Peloponnese in the time between, let's say, 1600 BC and the not so dark 'Dark Ages', those people who, at least in the imagination, were responsible for the development and 'boom' of the classical Greek culture.

    In the end it's of course impossible to detach the definition from origin, location and time, and so it should be handled when analysing DNA data. That's hard enough and we'll see whether there is someone who has the sense to gather the right data sets for this task.

    ... I also don't know where this notion comes from that the people of Crete are so different from the people of the mainland, ...
    Infact, Crete and the mainland share a lot of population. On the other hand, Y-chromosome data show some significant differences, but overall there is more in common than separate. And then there is Sicici...ah, we already had that cleared! :)

    ... My husband always wanted a time machine so he could go back and talk to Socrates.
    M-e-e-e-h! I wouldn't. His discussions were chewy like shoe soles, says my memory (Or was it just Plato, having his own agenda with his heritage?).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    @Sakattack

    You're basically saying what I already said. Are you just agreeing with me or what?
    I think the wording you used is not the best.
    The "true Hellenes" are what you get when you mix the locals with some - most likely much smaller in numbers - IE.

    Sent from my Robin

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    @ngc598,


    Throughout Kagan's lecture I was actually thinking, my God, is this a required class or something? He's the kind of professor whom students generally avoid like the plague if it's at all possible. I, of course, always had such awesome powers of concentration and focus that it didn't matter.

    No, no, it's Plato who wanted to see the world run by an oligarchy! I'm much more of an Aristotelian than a Platonist. You could say, if you wanted to really generalize, that all of western philosophy swings between the two.

    You're also right about the focus of much of this interest. I want to know Caesar's make-up, Augustus, Livia, as well as Ovid and Livy and Cicero. Throw in Agrippa too, and the Gracchi and Sulla. I also want to know about the unnamed people of the Republic into Imperial period: the chief engineers who designed the aqueducts and water systems and roads, the architect who designed the Pantheon, my favorite building in the world, the first legionnaires, and on and on. While I'm at it, I want to know what my Ligures, whom the Romans did their best to crush, were like.

    I like to dream big.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I was going to comment on the "Ancient Greek" or "true Greek" DNA but then Angela covered it for me. You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".
    The only 20th century Nordicist promulgation that I hate more than the Greek replacement theories is 'aboriginal Pelasgians'

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".
    I guess this was directed towards me! Now, let me repeat what I said...

    Populations are often changed completely, if at all. Only the large islands may have several different populations. So the chances are good that an island remains 'indigenous', or Greek or something else.
    I have no idea where the Pelasgians came into the discussion. Not even the Greek historians had a clue who they really were, at least everybody had another view, and there are at least half a dozen other Aegean folks described by them. Is 'Pelasgians' kind of a mixing bowl for everything around there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    ...If I would have to speculate, max I'd say this:

    E-V13 - Concentrated in the mountainous areas together with G and I2a, especially before the urbanization and expansion of many city states.
    J2a - More prevalent in the lowlands and coastal areas, possible at higher numbers in the Aegean islands and lower in mainland compared to today
    R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes...
    E-V13 are no mufflons, as far my biological knowledges go. I see no reason why they should limit themselves to grass plucking. E-V13 are in similar amounts in all southern Balkan populations, just Kosovo has considerably more. This haplogroup is therefore not specific for some ethnicity or culturally distinct people or had some mountain theology.

    J2a - there are at least half a dozen different subtypes on Crete, the continent should have at least as many, if not considerably more. All of them are clades older than 8000 years, so they are part of south European populations anywhere, again no specific population nor culture to give them a separate territory.

    Martinez-Cruz was selecting continental Greeks in a more rural environment for comparison in his Roma-Study. If there is any evidence that some haplogroup is more in cities or more between the flowers, then there are more R1a and less J2 on the countryside than in the average population, but it's still well within error margins of such a sample.

    No, assignments of major haplogroups to populations won't work.

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    s.e laconia is a large valley in the s.e extremity of pelponnese and is fairly isolated by a mountainous region from the rest of laconia.
    the distance from sparta is 112km (2 hours by car because of the mountains).
    A veterinarian friend of mine once had told me that a specific disease affecting the flocks, that is endmic in greece, is absent in neapoli probably because of the geografic isolation.
    of course they did not live in total isolation as they are mainly sea people but i would not be surprised if they made a distinct group within laconia as the maniots do.
    On the other hand they did not maintain their indipendence like the maniots did
    So they gone through an ottoman and venetian occupation but they are more distant from the slavic settlements so i would expect even lower slavic influence.
    If had to guess as they are included in the laconian sample i would expect something between laconians and deep mani for them.

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    It's been said that a good portion of Peloponnese Greeks are descendants of Arvanite colonies whom supposed to share the same origin with Aberesche in Italy and Albanians. Genetically speaking the E-V13 haplotype which peaks in Kosovars and some Albanian related tribes is also very significant in the Southern regions of Greece which suggest a shared origin between Albanians and Peloponnese Greeks.

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