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Thread: Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

  1. #426
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah, it is actually IT_Calabria, not Sicily_Calabria.

    I don't think that peer-reviewed studies go into such detail when it comes to micro-regional breakdown.

    or just unknown GEDmatch-ones?
    GEDmatch ones, but well-known ones (people who report their ancestry from these parts of the island).

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    Italian peer-rewieved studies divided Italy into regions and regions into provinces. So yes, they are a lot detailed and more than GEDmatch.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yeah, it is actually IT_Calabria, not Sicily_Calabria.

    I don't think that peer-reviewed studies go into such detail when it comes to micro-regional breakdown.

    GEDmatch ones, but well-known ones (people who report their ancestry from these parts of the island).
    Micro-regional breakdown based on what? On Sikeliot's samples? Are you kidding us? C'mon, on GEDmatch there are no informations about the province of origin. If you don't speak Italian, and none of you does, it's very hard to find the real origin of a GEDmatch kit.

    You're using GEDmatch kits found with the one-to-many, your samples obviously lack accuracy. Not by coincidence you're doing that on the Apricity, one of the least reliable forum.

    If someone wants to go into such detail, into a micro-regional breakdown, he should be much more accurate than usual, but you are doing exactly the opposite.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The only thing to get accurate information on GEDmatch is to send them an email and ask where are from all their known ancestors.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Italian peer-rewieved studies divided Italy into regions and regions into provinces. So yes, they are a lot detailed and more than GEDmatch.
    If they uploaded their samples somewhere in the internet then we can download them, convert to format accepted by GEDmatch, upload, see what they score in Eurogenes K36 and add them to reference populations. But some genomes are not public. I wanted to add these 15 Western Poles from Human Origins, but these samples are not public:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016...s-dataset.html

    BTW:

    This is Davidski's result (seems consistent with his mixed Baltic Polish + Western Polish origin):

    http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/0...-gedmatch.html

    36 components mode.
    Population data has been read. 169 populations found.
    Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
    Person: Davidski.txt
    Threshold of components set to 0,25%

    Least-squares method:

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 PL_Mazovia_Podlachia @ 7,436507
    2 Pl_Kashubians @ 7,538554
    3 PL_average @ 7,846317

    4 Russian_Bryansk @ 8,537448
    5 PL_West_Beskid @ 8,954606
    6 Belarusian_East @ 9,320142
    7 Belarusian_Polesye @ 9,471687
    8 Russian_Voronezh @ 10,156305
    9 Russian_Don_Cossack @ 10,566169
    10 Russian_Oryol @ 10,787786
    11 Russian_Smolensk @ 10,951148
    12 PL_Sudovia @ 11,050906
    13 PL_Lesser_Poland @ 11,121274

    14 Russian_Kursk @ 11,144745
    15 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 11,288698
    16 Ukrainian_West @ 11,536164
    17 Russian_Center @ 11,71206
    18 PL_Subcarpathia @ 12,077631
    19 Ukrainian_East @ 12,241989
    20 Russian_Meshtchyora @ 13,141305
    169 iterations.

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid @ 5,620053

    2 Russian_Bryansk+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,266282
    3 Lithuanian+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,486452
    4 Latvian+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,810187
    5 Russian_Bryansk+Pl_Kashubians @ 6,833668
    6 Belarusian_East+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,849917
    7 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+Pl_Kashubians @ 6,88214
    8 Pl_Kashubians+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,936759
    9 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,97595
    10 Ukrainian_West+PL_Sudovia @ 7,121046
    11 PL_average+PL_Sudovia @ 7,141337
    12 Lithuanian+German_Prussia @ 7,174647
    13 Pl_Kashubians+PL_Sudovia @ 7,257646
    14 Belarusian_East+Pl_Kashubians @ 7,309865
    15 Russian_Bryansk+PL_average @ 7,317851
    16 Pl_Kashubians+PL_average @ 7,362327
    17 Russian_Voronezh+PL_West_Beskid @ 7,405937
    18 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+PL_average @ 7,434186
    19 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+PL_Mazovia_Podlasie @ 7,436507
    20 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov+PL_West_Beskid @ 7,438911
    14365 iterations.

    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Bryansk +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,412205
    2 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Tver +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,413913
    3 50% PL_West_Beskid+25% Pl_Kashubians +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,536346
    4 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Lithuanian +25% Pl_Kashubians @ 5,579993
    5 50% PL_West_Beskid+25% Russian_Novgorod_Yaroslavl +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,612813
    6 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Voronezh +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,614329
    7 50% PL_Sudovia +25% PL_West_Beskid +25% PL_West_Beskid @ 5,620053
    8 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Belarusian_East +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,68815
    9 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Meshtchyora +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,706588
    10 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% PL_Mazovia_Podlasie +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,720267
    11 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Lithuanian +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,734397
    12 50% Pl_Kashubians +25% PL_Sudovia +25% PL_West_Beskid @ 5,744897
    (...)

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Russian_Bryansk+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_ Beskid @ 5,412205
    2 Russian_Tver+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Bes kid @ 5,413913
    3 Pl_Kashubians+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Be skid @ 5,536346
    4 Lithuanian+Pl_Kashubians+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Be skid @ 5,579993
    5 Russian_Bryansk+Pl_Kashubians+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_B eskid@ 5,59688
    6 Russian_Novgorod_Yaroslavl+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Besk id+PL_West_Beskid @ 5,612813
    7 Russian_Voronezh+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West _Beskid @ 5,614329
    8 PL_Sudovia+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Beski d @ 5,620053
    (...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    The only thing to get accurate information on GEDmatch is to send them an email and ask where are from all their known ancestors.
    Not to mention, that actually many Sicilians have grandparents from different parts of the island. Does really exist someone who is fully from Palermo, Catania, Trapani? °_O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Not to mention, that actually many Sicilians have grandparents from different parts of the island. Does really exist someone who is fully from Palermo, Catania, Trapani? °_O
    Indeed, for example myself i've great-grandparents from Palermo, Catania, Ragusa, Messina. Modern Palermitans for example descendent from people all over Sicily and Mainland Italy.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If they uploaded their samples somewhere in the internet then we can download them and convert to format accepted by GEDmatch, upload on GEDmatch, see what they score in Eurogenes K36 and add them to reference populations. But some genomes are not public. For example I wanted to add these 15 Western Poles from Humna Origins, but these samples are not public:
    Tomenable, we are not dumb. The samples for Greece and Sicily are from Sikeliot, aka Portuguese Princess, the American guy who has spent the last 5 years harassing Italians on forums. What do I have to deduce?

    "mlukas :Thanks to Sikeliot samples for Greece and Sicily those regions are modeled quite good."

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-results/page4


    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Indeed, for example myself i've great-grandparents from Palermo, Catania, Ragusa, Messina. Modern Palermitans for example descendent from people all over Sicily and Mainland Italy.
    A micro-regional breakdown, lol. They are so ridiculous.

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    Sikeliot was just one of many sources. Also for example Percivalle contributed Italian samples:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/mem...530-Percivalle

    Percivalle contributed ~70 Italian GEDmatch IDs with verified ancestry and regional breakdown.

    Not sure why Mlukas forgot to mention him.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I do not want to debate at all costs, but to have a Sicilian regional breakdown you need a large number of Sicilian sample with people who have 4/4 grandparents all born in the same province and city. And these Sicilian samples do not exist on Gedmatch because the majoirity of Sicilians on Gedmatch have grandparents from different Sicilian provinces. they represent Sicily as whole but not a specific area.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Why are you guys discussing Italian genetics and specifically micro-regional differences in Sicily on a thread about the genetics of the Peloponnesus? You're not even trying to connect that with similarities to the Peloponnesus. It just seems like the same old, same old from anthrofora. Cut it out.

    @Tomenable,
    Where have you been? Did you miss all the Boattini papers, or the papers that provided the samples from places like the Piemonte/Emilia border? A lot of the Italian papers specifically are trying to capture micro-regional differences, and they are ensuring the suitability of their samples by checking that all four grandparents are from the same area. Sometimes they even go further and cull for non-local surnames.

    How can you possibly compare the reliability of results like those to data at gedmatch based on self-reporting, and especially in a country like Italy with so much recent internal migration? The same goes for Greece. That was a rhetorical question: you can't.

    In my own area someone could say, perfectly correctly, that they're from northwestern Toscana, but they could have a mother from Calabria. Some Greek posters have already said they have grandparents from various parts of Greece and even Anatolia. It's ridiculous to imagine, imo, that you could use gedmatch samples for this purpose.

    Now, let's get back on topic.
    Last edited by Angela; 10-04-17 at 17:37.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well dividing Sicily into so many subregions is a bit of a stretch.

    We could just make one "Sicily" reference population instead.

    But Sikeliot wanted to see how different parts of Sicily plot.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 10-04-17 at 21:13.

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    I often have detailed info about ancestry of these people. For example my "PL_West_Beskid" reference is one person so far (most reference populations are between 10 and 100 people, only a few are single persons).

    One person, but 31 out of his 32 g-g-great-grandparents are from the same region.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well dividing Sicily into so many subregions is a bit of a stretch.

    We could just make one "Sicily" reference population instead.

    But Sikeliot wanted to see how different parts of Sicily plot.
    No, now that he's found that half of his 100,000 posts are worthless because of the study on the genetics of the Peloponnesus and a comparison of those genomes with ones from Sicily, he wants to try to save the other half of his posts, the ones on regionality within Sicily.

    If someone wants to compare the different areas of Sicily there are academic samples from various areas. Contact the authors and ask if the genomes are publicly available or can be made publicly available, or, at the least, contact gedmatch testees by e-mail if that's possible, and try to ascertain if all four grandparents are from one area. It's not as good as checking records, but it's better than what's being proposed here. Oh, and I wouldn't trust the results unless I saw the documentation for those e-mails, especially since one of the people involved is of proven mendacity. I'm sure you know or are learning about impeached witnesses and the effect on credibility.

    Of course, you can do as you wish. Just don't expect people to give it very high reliability.


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    The creator of the MDLP calculator seems to have the academic regional Sicilian samples. Perhaps he could provide them, or at least indicate where he go them so the source could be contacted.

    I'd still advise, however, against drawing any dogmatic conclusions. In places around Messina, for example, the dna would come from all over Sicily because large parts of it were destroyed by earthquake and people from all over Sicily re-populated it. You have to know something of the history of different areas to draw intelligent conclusions.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The creator of the MDLP calculator seems to have the academic regional Sicilian samples. Perhaps he could provide them, or at least indicate where he go them so the source could be contacted.

    I'd still advise, however, against drawing any dogmatic conclusions. In places around Messina, for example, the dna would come from all over Sicily because large parts of it were destroyed by earthquake and people from all over Sicily re-populated it. You have to know something of the history of different areas to draw intelligent conclusions.
    Also Calabrese and a little number of North East Italians (from Caporetto) settled to Messina after 1908 earthquake. Only 5000 original Messinese survived.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Using this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/Europe.htm

    I calculated genetically predicted locations of regional Greek samples:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post506532
    My PuntDNAL K15 Single Population Sharing:
    # Population(source) Distance
    1 Polish 2.06

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the Peloponnese with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others. Those groups are indeed on a cline, but the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians.

    My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?

    Attachment 8550

    Click to enlarge.

    The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia.

    Are they identical? No, they're not, but they're pretty darn close. What else would you expect for goodness sakes, when so much of Magna Graecia was settled from there?
    I'm assuming that Peloponnese also overlap with Southern mainland Italians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, now that he's found that half of his 100,000 posts are worthless because of the study on the genetics of the Peloponnesus and a comparison of those genomes with ones from Sicily, he wants to try to save the other half of his posts, the ones on regionality within Sicily.

    If someone wants to compare the different areas of Sicily there are academic samples from various areas. Contact the authors and ask if the genomes are publicly available or can be made publicly available, or, at the least, contact gedmatch testees by e-mail if that's possible, and try to ascertain if all four grandparents are from one area. It's not as good as checking records, but it's better than what's being proposed here. Oh, and I wouldn't trust the results unless I saw the documentation for those e-mails, especially since one of the people involved is of proven mendacity. I'm sure you know or are learning about impeached witnesses and the effect on credibility.

    Of course, you can do as you wish. Just don't expect people to give it very high reliability.
    Sikeliot is obsessed with whitewashing all mainland Greeks and separating them from Sicilians/Southern Italians.
    Apparently cherry-picking regional samples is preferable to admitting he was wrong.
    Sikeliot is of the frame of mind that Greek Islands are like Mars compared to mainland Greece.

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