Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[Hauteville]

The creator of the MDLP calculator seems to have the academic regional Sicilian samples. Perhaps he could provide them, or at least indicate where he go them so the source could be contacted.

I'd still advise, however, against drawing any dogmatic conclusions. In places around Messina, for example, the dna would come from all over Sicily because large parts of it were destroyed by earthquake and people from all over Sicily re-populated it. You have to know something of the history of different areas to draw intelligent conclusions.

Also Calabrese and a little number of North East Italians (from Caporetto) settled to Messina after 1908 earthquake. Only 5000 original Messinese survived.

 

[Tomenable]

Using this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/Europe.htm

I calculated genetically predicted locations of regional Greek samples:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...results)/page3?p=506532&viewfull=1#post506532

 

[Beelzebub]

The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the Peloponnese with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others. Those groups are indeed on a cline, but the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians.

My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?

View attachment 8550

Click to enlarge.

The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia.

Are they identical? No, they're not, but they're pretty darn close. What else would you expect for goodness sakes, when so much of Magna Graecia was settled from there?

I'm assuming that Peloponnese also overlap with Southern mainland Italians?

 

[Beelzebub]

No, now that he's found that half of his 100,000 posts are worthless because of the study on the genetics of the Peloponnesus and a comparison of those genomes with ones from Sicily, he wants to try to save the other half of his posts, the ones on regionality within Sicily.

If someone wants to compare the different areas of Sicily there are academic samples from various areas. Contact the authors and ask if the genomes are publicly available or can be made publicly available, or, at the least, contact gedmatch testees by e-mail if that's possible, and try to ascertain if all four grandparents are from one area. It's not as good as checking records, but it's better than what's being proposed here. Oh, and I wouldn't trust the results unless I saw the documentation for those e-mails, especially since one of the people involved is of proven mendacity. I'm sure you know or are learning about impeached witnesses and the effect on credibility.

Of course, you can do as you wish. Just don't expect people to give it very high reliability.

Sikeliot is obsessed with whitewashing all mainland Greeks and separating them from Sicilians/Southern Italians.
Apparently cherry-picking regional samples is preferable to admitting he was wrong.
Sikeliot is of the frame of mind that Greek Islands are like Mars compared to mainland Greece.
My theory on why Sikeliot isolates Southern Italians and Sicilians, is related to his longstanding flame war with Italic Roots.
[h=3][/h]

 

[ihype02]

From George Finlay on Arbanites:
In the Peloponnesus they are still more numerous. They occupy the whole of Corinthia and Argolis, extending themselves into the northern part of Arcadia and the eastern part of Achaia.

See Corinthia and Argolis, you draw your own conclusions if those results do indeed come from antiquity.

 

[Seanp]

K36 is an amateurish calculator and it shouldn't be taken seriously. While this work is professional and used verified samples from both Greece and Italy and I don't think any of the professional genealogists have any agendas to favor certain people unlike amateur bloggers like Dienekes Pontikos **Cough Cough**

 

[Angela]

Actually, I can't think of much he was wrong about, unlike Eurogenes, who has so many wrong predictions to his credit they'd fill the phone directory of a small town. Of course, you won't be able to find them now, because unlike Dienekes, he scrubs his blog.

Plus, the data is now clear. The difference between mainland Greeks and southern Italians is small, as anyone with a brain in his head should always have known. Whatever the various sub-structures in Greece, none of them are anywhere near Ukrainians.

Oh, and just to stop the disinformation and re-writing of history, the majority of Sickeliot's 100,000 posts full of cherry-picked photos and data were online before Italic Roots was created. If anything, that site could be labeled the "Anti-Sikeliot" blog.

 

[Seanp]

Actually, I can't think of much he was wrong about, unlike Eurogenes, who has so many wrong predictions to his credit they'd fill the phone directory of a small town. Of course, you won't be able to find them now, because unlike Dienekes, he scrubs his blog.

Plus, the data is now clear. The difference between mainland Greeks and southern Italians is small, as anyone with a brain in his head should always have known. Whatever the various sub-structures in Greece, none of them are anywhere near Ukrainians.

Oh, and just to stop the disinformation and re-writing of history, the majority of Sickeliot's 100,000 posts full of cherry-picked photos and data were online before Italic Roots was created. If anything, that site could be labeled the "Anti-Sikeliot" blog.

Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixture at least for people of North European or mixed ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. Polako has been an active blogger for over a decade as I recall and while he has some bias, many of his work are admirable in terms of content and sources.
Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations.

This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity.: They're being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward.
It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average.

It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.

 

[Yetos]

Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixtures at least for people of North European ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups.
Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations.

This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward.
It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average.

It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.

but that is big true,
among Greeks and Turks the gene stream flow as also the milleniums of admixture
I also suggest Hellenistic kingdoms, East Roman empire history, and even some books in christian bibble, will help

it is very different to extract models in Mediterrenean than in Atlantic and North Europe
take for Instance Iceland,
well known history, typical you expect Scan and some Irish until 1950's
but what about Middle East Mediterennean N Africa?
there even the most humble gene mark can mean a lot,

 

[Seanp]

but that is big true,
among Greeks and Turks the gene stream flow as also the milleniums of admixture
I also suggest Hellenistic kingdoms, East Roman empire history, and even some books in christian bibble, will help

How would you define a Greek and a Turk? Many ethnic groups became Hellenes during in the Byzantine empire and Many Turks have roots anywhere from Sudan to North Caucasus. There are approximately 400 thousands - 1 million Afro Turks living in Turkey.

 

[Angela]

Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixture at least for people of North European or mixed ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. Polako has been an active blogger for over a decade as I recall and while he has some bias, many of his work are admirable in terms of content and sources.
Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations.

This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity.: They're being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward.
It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average.

It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.

What disabled person? Sickeliot? You have access to his medical and psychiatric files? What slurs did I use? A description of someone's posts is not a slur; it's a statement of fact.*

As for the rest, give me a break. I never in my life saw racist comments by Dienekes, whereas Davidski belonged to and contributed to racist sites, and has made tons of disgusting racist statements in his time.

He certainly has a lot of calculators, but most of them are total crap, especially the "Jewish" one. It's malpractice for it still to be up on gedmatch. If someone wants to know how "Jewish" they are, they should take the 23andme test; it will tell them to the decimal point. As for the rest, half of them, the ones that purport to deal with only modern groupings, are off because of a vastly inflated East European cluster. The ones purporting to show ancient admixture are usually based on his "guesses", not on the actual ancient genomes. Peddle your propaganda to someone who hasn't spent hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years poring over this stuff. Even when his computation is legit, his analysis is totally skewed, and he often leaves out crucial results.

Regardless, this thread is about the Peloponnese and its genetics. We've gone over the data ad nauseam. If you have nothing new to add, move on.

Ed. Oh, I know what's going on...you're talking about the pm with Davef. I knew you'd slip up eventually. Hello, Sickeliot...having fun with your 50 faces of Eve game?

 

[Yetos]

How would you define a Greek and a Turk? Many ethnic groups became Hellenes during in the Byzantine empire and Many Turks have roots anywhere from Sudan to North Caucasus. There are approximately 400 thousands - 1 million Afro Turks living in Turkey.

I repeat search the Hellenistic Kingdoms

for example
the true Turks are the Seljuks and the part of Azzeris and I do not about Ottomans, I maybe am wrong, but as I know they were mix of Alans and Greek-Byzantines
the rest in modern Turkey are Anatolians Thracians Greeks Laz Iranian-Aryan Armenians etc (colonisation from 800 BC)

to understand the numbers search the exchange of population of 1923, the expells of 1821 and 1870 etc and realize that these numbers are not even the half of the total population but about 1/5 to 1/10 and mainly done by religion
not by ethnicity

a good example of the area is the known Galates
Gauls who spoke a kind of Belgae, who moved to Greece, then North Balkans then Bulgaria to end at minor Asia
they were fully Helenised at the times of Roman empire and ended to be Turks Today after the era of Ottomans

 

[Kingslav]

What disabled person? Sickeliot? You have access to his medical and psychiatric files? What slurs did I use? A description of someone's posts is not a slur; it's a statement of fact.*

As for the rest, give me a break. I never in my life saw racist comments by Dienekes, whereas Davidski belonged to and contributed to racist sites, and has made tons of disgusting racist statements in his time.


He certainly has a lot of calculators, but most of them are total crap, especially the "Jewish" one. It's malpractice for it still to be up on gedmatch. If someone wants to know how "Jewish" they are, they should take the 23andme test; it will tell them to the decimal point. As for the rest, half of them, the ones that purport to deal with only modern groupings, are off because of a vastly inflated East European cluster. The ones purporting to show ancient admixture are usually based on his "guesses", not on the actual ancient genomes. Peddle your propaganda to someone who hasn't spent hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years poring over this stuff. Even when his computation is legit, his analysis is totally skewed, and he often leaves out crucial results.

Regardless, this thread is about the Peloponnese and its genetics. We've gone over the data ad nauseam. If you have nothing new to add, move on.

Ed. Oh, I know what's going on...you're talking about the pm with Davef. I knew you'd slip up eventually. Hello, Sickeliot...having fun with your 50 faces of Eve game?

Any real proof of Davidski being racist or just speculation?

 

[Kingslav]

Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixture at least for people of North European or mixed ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. Polako has been an active blogger for over a decade as I recall and while he has some bias, many of his work are admirable in terms of content and sources.
Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations.


This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity.: They're being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward.
It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average.

It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.

This "singe" Russian guy, I should do observation of his genetics, interesting, can you point me where you found about him?

 

[Angela]

Any real proof of Davidski being racist or just speculation?

He's cleaned up his act because he wants to be taken "seriously" (which means massive scrubbing of his posts, as well as some convenient "crashes" at various blogs), but a lot of us have been around for ten years and more, so we read them at the time, and some of us have collected some eye-opening screenshots. I once followed a picture from google and wound up on Stormfront, and the conversation between him and some Russian almost made me fall off my chair. It was racism on steroids. Heck, even with sites like the apricity, important members have been arrested.

Some of the more sanitary but still authentic Davidski can be seen in the comments on early threads at Dienekes' blog. Dienekes doesn't sanitize his own comments or anyone else's, not that he needed to in his case. You can also see Dienekes make mincemeat of him when it comes to statistics and the inner workings of these population genetics software packages. Now, he pretends to be an expert. The Emperor has no clothes.

 

[DuPidh]

How would you define a Greek and a Turk? Many ethnic groups became Hellenes during in the Byzantine empire and Many Turks have roots anywhere from Sudan to North Caucasus. There are approximately 400 thousands - 1 million Afro Turks living in Turkey.

800 000 I have heard

 

[Kingslav]

He's cleaned up his act because he wants to be taken "seriously" (which means massive scrubbing of his posts, as well as some convenient "crashes" at various blogs), but a lot of us have been around for ten years and more, so we read them at the time, and some of us have collected some eye-opening screenshots.

Some of the more sanitary but still authentic Davidski can be seen in the comments on early threads at Dienekes' blog. Dienekes doesn't sanitize his own comments or anyone else's, not that he needed to in his case.

Based off his work he is respected data scientist, but everyone has there opinions.

 

[DuPidh]

For sure when you talk about slavs you can not exclude the russians and poles, so n.e european admixture should be the major fact. Also R1a and I2a are usefull but some people argue that I2a shouldn't be consider as it could be just the haplogroup of slavisized dinarics, while others disagree claiming that the differnce between I2a and R1a in the serbs and the russians for example are explained by a founder effect. R1a on the other hand is high in all slavic populations but you can not claim that R1a=slavs because the haplogroup is much older than the slavic expansion.
I do not have data about albanian IBD. In theory because of geography albania should be more close to the slavs, but as albania is a mountainous region i would not bet on it especialy because eupedias maps showing lower n.e european admixture for north albania.
An albania guy in the apricity gave this numbers for albanian haplogroups based in this study
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/full/ejhg2015138a.html
Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%
i do not know if they are wright but they seem so as the kosovars who are ghegs are the ones with the highest E-V13 in europe.
That for me is only the proof that albanians are a very strang case genetically speaking and is also a proof that they are an autochtonous nation like the greeks are.But as this is not a thread about albanians if you want to continue to talk about it text me personaly if we are both willing to keep it civilized.

Why are Albanians strange genetically? If you take away 10% slavic in south, Albanians are exactly the same, Gegh and Tosk. Greeks have even more slavic mixture. About 20% according to my observations. One reason is Slavs did not invade heavenly populate areas. Albania central and North had enough population to ward off the invasion. Southern Albania and Greece were devastated by a plague in fourth century, its a documented event and happened in the middle of 5 century. They did not have enough time to replace the lost population. Slavic invasion is not recorded as violent with battles fought. They simply occupied uninhabited or sparsely populated areas. So bottom line I would say southern Albanians have assimilated 10% Slav. Some Dna tests I have observed show that Albanians have 5% of their genes Turkish. Greeks because of their proximity have at least 15-20% Turkish genes. I mean the paart of genes ancestry.com calls caucasian or middle east

 

[Angela]

Based off his work he is respected data scientist, but everyone has there opinions.

You asked if I have proof or it's just speculation. I answered you: I have the proof, seen with my own eyes, so it's not opinion, it's fact. He's a racist of the worst kind. Period and end of story.

 

[Angela]

Why are Albanians strange genetically? If you take away 10% slavic in south, Albanians are exactly the same, Gegh and Tosk. Greeks have even more slavic mixture. About 20% according to my observations. One reason is Slavs did not invade heavenly populate areas. Albania central and North had enough population to ward off the invasion. Southern Albania and Greece were devastated by a plague in fourth century, its a documented event and happened in the middle of 5 century. They did not have enough time to replace the lost population. Slavic invasion is not recorded as violent with battles fought. They simply occupied uninhabited or sparsely populated areas. So bottom line I would say southern Albanians have assimilated 10% Slav. Some Dna tests I have observed show that Albanians have 5% of their genes Turkish. Greeks because of their proximity have at least 15-20% Turkish genes. I mean the paart of genes ancestry.com calls caucasian or middle east

Unproved speculation as always. Stop the ******** or you'll get another well-deserved infraction.