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Thread: Y Chromosomal landscape of West Asia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Y Chromosomal landscape of West Asia.

    It's basically uplands versus lowlands.

    See: O. Balonovsky et al
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...439-017-1770-2

    "Y-chromosomal variation in West Asian populations has so far been studied in less detail than in the neighboring Europe. Here, we analyzed 598 Y-chromosomes from two West Asian subregions—Transcaucasia and the Armenian plateau—using 40 Y-SNPs and 17 Y-STRs and combined them with previously published data from the region. The West Asian populations fell into two clusters: upland populations from the Anatolian, Armenian and Iranian plateaus, and lowland populations from the Levant, Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula. This geographic subdivision corresponds with the linguistic difference between Indo-European and Turkic speakers, on the one hand, and Semitic speakers, on the other. This subdivision could be traced back to the Neolithic epoch, when upland populations from the Anatolian and Iranian plateaus carried similar haplogroup spectra but did not overlap with lowland populations from the Levant. We also found that the initial gene pool of the Armenian motherland population has been well preserved in most groups of the Armenian Diaspora. In view of the contribution of West Asians to the autosomal gene pool of the steppe Yamnaya archaeological culture, we sequenced a large portion of the Y-chromosome in haplogroup R1b samples from present-day East European steppe populations. The ancient Yamnaya samples are located on the “eastern” R-GG400 branch of haplogroup R1b-L23, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya still live in the Pontic steppe and that the ancient Yamnaya population was not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans."


    That last statement seems a stretch given that we don't have genomes from the western part of the Yamnaya horizon. They should modify it. However, I said as soon as the Haak paper came out that the wording was a little too broad given the lack of samples from certain areas. Of course, they could all have these samples and don't want to reveal them yet, so who knows.

    Amazing that they've put even the supplement behind a pay wall.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The ancient Yamnaya samples are located on the “eastern” R-GG400 branch of haplogroup R1b-L23, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya still live in the Pontic steppe and that the ancient Yamnaya population was not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans."


    That last statement seems a stretch given that we don't have genomes from the western part of the Yamnaya horizon. They should modify it. However, I said as soon as the Haak paper came out that the wording was a little too broad given the lack of samples from certain areas. Of course, they could all have these samples and don't want to reveal them yet, so who knows.

    Amazing that they've put even the supplement behind a pay wall.
    I don't see how one thing - an eastern subbranch of L23 - could exclude another thing - Yamna being paternal to West-Europeans.
    And what is this R-GG400 SNP? Where is it on the pedigree?

    Since El Portalon has EHG-like but no CHG-like admixture and the oldest sample - ATP3 is 5.4 ka and is R1b-M269, it might indeed be that Yamna is not ancestral to Western Europe, but at least it is a paternal brotherclade of R1b-L23, so Western Europa and Yamna would have a common ancestor then. Maybe the link is Suvorovo. Maybe steppe herders learned about copper melting in the Balkans and then some of them went looking for copper ores in Iberia.

    I'm awaiting the Bell Beaker paper. It may bring some big surprises.
    I guess both R1b-M269 and I2a2a will be in both western Yamna and in early chalcolithic Iberia. And maybe R1b-L151 was born in Iberia.

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    I can't judge the findings of this paper without access to it or at least to the Supplement, which is usually more informative.

    Beyond that, though, we'd have to have results from the western Yamnaya horizon. Perhaps they have them and just aren't saying. We have no way of knowing.

    Also, I've heard that they say in the paper that the Indo-European urheimat is in West Asia and is somehow connected to that clade.That sounds like the Krause and Allentoft formulation, or some version of a stage 1 south of the Caucasus and a stage 2 on the steppe. If they don't have inside information about results from the upcoming Caucasus paper that's a stretch.

    What is beyond question, however, is that to postulate that Russian scientists would have some sort of confirmation bias against a Yamnaya theory of the Indo-Europeans is amusing. Even more amusing is who is asserting that. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. :)

    As to the ATP3, then that isn't the sample whose M269 status has been changed?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Supplements are here

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    And what is this R-GG400 SNP? Where is it on the pedigree?
    GG400 is another name for Y4371/Z1828/M12149, which is at the Z2103 level. It just means R1b-Z2103. I have no idea why they don't just call it Z2103, they know it's Z2103 equivalent.

    They went through the Samara Yamnaya samples and found out the most of them were Z2103 and several were KMS75 (which they call GG625), which they also found in a new (modern) Crimean Tatar sample. Which we already knew (thanks to the analysis of smal) for almost 2 years already, so they are a little behind, but nice to have it in a formal publication anyway.

    There are also a bunch of new samples of Georgians and diaspora Armenians, which they tested for Z2103, but not for any of its subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Supplements are here


    GG400 is another name for Y4371/Z1828/M12149, which is at the Z2103 level. It just means R1b-Z2103. I have no idea why they don't just call it Z2103, they know it's Z2103 equivalent.

    They went through the Samara Yamnaya samples and found out the most of them were Z2103 and several were KMS75 (which they call GG625), which they also found in a new (modern) Crimean Tatar sample. Which we already knew (thanks to the analysis of smal) for almost 2 years already, so they are a little behind, but nice to have it in a formal publication anyway.

    There are also a bunch of new samples of Georgians and diaspora Armenians, which they tested for Z2103, but not for any of its subclades.
    well the R1b Yamna results are in this tree, aren't they?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    nothing new, in that case

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As to the ATP3, then that isn't the sample whose M269 status has been changed?
    the ATP3 M269 status is based on only 1 deciphered SNP, but it seems to be a clear read, so it is not 100 % sure but very likely
    there is also 1 SNP read that confirms R1b-P297 status, which makes M269 even more likely

    so, who changed the status and from what to what and based on what?

    I know many have a hard time or even refuse to believe the M269 status.

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    Beyond that, though, we'd have to have results from the western Yamnaya horizon. Perhaps they have them and just aren't saying. We have no way of knowing.
    Sometimes I imagine that genetists found no L51 in the western steppe but they found it in Iberian BB. I figure out how they would try to understand it asking to the holy cows of IE archaeology and linguistics. I suppose that the holy cows would do everything on their hands to stop their own ragnarok.
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    Whatever they sequenced there their conclusion is wrong or it is based entirely on Haplogroups. Mesopotamia is definitely from what I have seen more like Anatolia and the Iranian Plateau. Levant is a thing of it's own just like the Arabian Peninsula is.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Very exciting study! I was waiting for new Y-DNA data for West Asia and the Pontic Steppe for quite some time. The supplementary file 439_2017_1770_MOESM25_ESM.xlsx contains a list of the 600 Y-DNA samples tested. That will be very useful to improve the accuracy of my Y-DNA maps.

    It's just unfortunate that they didn't test deeper subclades. All the R1b-L23 are labeled R1b-Z2130, which I suppose is Z2103, as Z2130 is a J2 SNP and I have never seen it attributed to R1b.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Whatever they sequenced there their conclusion is wrong or it is based entirely on Haplogroups. Mesopotamia is definitely from what I have seen more like Anatolia and the Iranian Plateau. Levant is a thing of it's own just like the Arabian Peninsula is.
    Are you speaking of an-auDNA? Have we anDNA of Mesopotamia? (perhaps I missed some data) - I did not think Anatolia was the same as Iranian plateau, haplo's or auDNA concerned - even today after historic moves on every side they are distinct.
    That said we still wait for ancient Y-R1b South the Caucasus before the 3000 BC; sure more ancient haplo's of North Anatolia would be welcome, the same for S-E Caspian regions... to date I think more than a door remains open for different theories (suspense!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Are you speaking of an-auDNA? Have we anDNA of Mesopotamia? (perhaps I missed some data) - I did not think Anatolia was the same as Iranian plateau, haplo's or auDNA concerned - even today after historic moves on every side they are distinct.
    That said we still wait for ancient Y-R1b South the Caucasus before the 3000 BC; sure more ancient haplo's of North Anatolia would be welcome, the same for S-E Caspian regions... to date I think more than a door remains open for different theories (suspense!)
    I have seen aDNA from Iraqis on 23andme beside a few outliars who looked either Arabian or Kurdish, the large majority of them appeared to be something like a mix of 6/10 Kurdish or Iranian, 3/10 Arabian and 1/10 something Assyrian like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I have seen aDNA from Iraqis on 23andme beside a few outliars who looked either Arabian or Kurdish, the large majority of them appeared to be something like a mix of 6/10 Kurdish or Iranian, 3/10 Arabian and 1/10 something Assyrian like.
    Did that include any so called "Marsh Arabs", or other tribal Arabs? What percentage of the total population do they represent? Wouldn't certain groups who had less impact from recent migrations be better for clues as to the ancient populations? That is, until we get ancient dna.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    None here is talking about the one or, perhaps, two members of I-M170, negative for I1-M253 and I2-P215, found in this paper. Is this extremely rare lineage previously found somewhere else?

    Interesting that these members are found in the North Caucasus. Perhaps close to the origin of IJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    None here is talking about the one or, perhaps, two members of I-M170, negative for I1-M253 and I2-P215, found in this paper. Is this extremely rare lineage previously found somewhere else?
    An Armenian from Rostov, so not really North Caucasian. But another one was found in the North Caucasus, actually: a Lak from Dagestan, in Karafet et al 2016, "Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    An Armenian from Rostov, so not really North Caucasian. But another one was found in the North Caucasus, actually: a Lak from Dagestan, in Karafet et al 2016, "Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations of Daghestan".
    Not really North Caucasus if we assume he is really descended from original Armenians but this remains unknown to us. What we know for sure is that this I* is only found in North Caucasus populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    None here is talking about the one or, perhaps, two members of I-M170, negative for I1-M253 and I2-P215, found in this paper. Is this extremely rare lineage previously found somewhere else?

    Interesting that these members are found in the North Caucasus. Perhaps close to the origin of IJ.
    How did they classify them as I* ? I hope it wasn't based on str only.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    How did they classify them as I* ? I hope it wasn't based on str only.
    SNPs:
    M170+ ( I )
    M253- ( I1 )
    P215- ( I2 )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    SNPs:
    M170+ ( I )
    M253- ( I1 )
    P215- ( I2 )
    Wow,so I* still lives .. does this tell us anything on the route haplogroup I took to reach Europe ? via the Caucasus maybe ? I am also interested if they cluster together under a common snp, if they were numerous enough we might have an I3 haplogroup.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The I* results are indeed very interesting. There was also an I* found in Di Cristofaro 2013 belonging to a Hazara in Afghanistan, although the SNP they tested on that individual to represent Haplogroup I was unfortunately different (M258), so I've speculated that he may actually be IJ. There's a very good chance that we're seeing newly discovered I3 here.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    A slightly deeper dive into the reported I*s after looking at their STRs:

    ARM-171: Definitely I1, which wasn't tested by SNP.
    UDI-118: This one is confirmed I* by SNPs. Its STRs come close-ish to a lot of I1s, but not enough to suspect that its M253 call is wrong. Doesn't match anything else closely, including other suspected I*s. Must be I3.
    GEO-126: Could be I2 (xP37,M223), like I2c, but it's not like any I2c I've ever seen before. It doesn't have any close matches in databases that I could find. Doesn't match UDI-118 at all. A little closer to AZ6_5 (the Hazara I mentioned), but not close enough to confirm that they're on the same branch. Who knows?
    GEO-127: Probably I2c2, which wasn't tested by SNP.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Rostov is on the Russian plain, but this Armenian diaspora population is supposed to have come first to the shores of the Caspian and then to Crimea before ending up on the Don, so it could have been picked up anywhere en route I guess. Can't say anything conclusive based on only two samples.

    Unfortunately the haplotypes from the Dagestan study were not published with the paper, so we can't compare them. I forgot about the Hazara, thanks for that Sparkey. I thought of your theory about IJ*/I* but this one was tested for M170 like the Iranian one.

    Many archaeologists have suggested that the Gravettian originates with the Ahmarian or some related culture of West Asia, and the ancestor of I may have come in with the Gravettian - the few samples were have from earlier are different branches. Koslowski has suggested that proto-Gravettian technology came through the Balkans, but Hoffecker seems to think it arrived via the Caucasus, where there are Ahmarian assemblages on both sides of the mountains and what he considers a Proto-Gravettian in the Russian plain at Kostenki prior to 40 000 years ago. This would be compatible with the estimated TMRCA of IJ. But there are many other possibilities of course.

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    The Search seems mainly related with Armenian Highland, not entire West Asia and I am trying to look it as Research on Armenans but I am a little bit disapponited, there is Cilician or Istanbul-Izmit Armenian

    Whatever,

    I always thought that Hemshin people are just Islamized Armenian, but it seems that at least they are a kind of sub-branch. Thanks for this research and who share it.

    However I didn't get map. It shows frequency but A-Salmast sample make me confused.

    Frequency high means they are far from each other, doesn't it? Example: A-Salmast & A-Hemshin(Frequency: above the 1)

    In the Branch tree, A-Samsat close to A-WA and A-Alashkent (Frequency: around 0,08)

    A-Salmast is also close with red grup; A-Erzurum, A-Adigie, A-Iran-G (frequency: around 0,21-0,24). I am totaly fine

    But Why A-Van, A-Syunik(Pink circle) which has also a bit low frequency(frequency: around 0,05), that much far in the brench tree. They should be more close to A-Salmast then A-Erzurum





    Where is my mistake?

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    Now that's an amazing map:


    This confirms that at least when it comes to Y-DNA there's a cline running in between Egypt & Red Sea and Highland West Asia, with the Levant having an intermediate position. North Africa West of Egypt also seems to have an intermediate position.

    For those who are even slower than me and haven't read the whole thing yet, here's a read-only upload: http://www.readcube.com/articles/10....m6tBNNtQ%3D%3D

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