Failure to replicate sex bias in steppe migrations

[Alan]

But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European. There's more than a color difference between West Asians and Europeans.

You think a population that does not cluster with any modern population, that basically is ~50/50 EHG/CHG-Iran_Neo like would look distincly European. Additional to that you assume you can say that someone with typical "European" aDNA could look nothing less than "typical European" just like you would never in your live mistake this Druze guy for anything else but Near Eastern.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3167/2509940349_db71f6c200_b.jpg

I am sorry to burst the bubble but within the major three branchest of the Human aDNA groups (West Eurasian, East Eurasian, Sub Saharan African) there is not enough in the DNA to differentiate physical appearance beyond pigmentation. Laying sekeltal/cranial differences, height etc to the side (which in factis quite diverse in Europe to begin with), West Eurasians look just the same to an eye of an East Eurasians and the average East Eurasian can only tell them apart by pigmentation, just like average West Eurasian does so with East Eurasians.

 

[Fire Haired14]

You think a population that does not cluster with any modern population, that basically is ~50/50 EHG/CHG-Iran_Neo like would look distincly European.

BA Steppe groups weren't a mysterious population, they're maybe the primary ancestor of Northern Europeans aka white people. Why is it hard for you to believe they looked white?

I am sorry to burst the bubble but within the major three branchest of the Human aDNA groups (West Eurasian, East Eurasian, Sub Saharan African) there is not enough in the DNA to differentiate physical appearance beyond pigmentation.

There are many differences besides color.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Also, Alan most Corded Ware genomes are MN admixed. Northern Europeans today can be modeled as 70% Corded Ware. The chances they'd look foreign to their descendants is low.

Yeah, history doesn't match a Nordicts fantasy but to distant Corded Ware or Yamnaya phenotypically from Europeans as you are is exaggerating how wrong they are.

 

[MOESAN]

@FireHaired: "they looked white" (?!?) - I suppose you think they are on the 'europoid' or 'caucasoid' side of phenotypes?
@Alan: are you speaking of 'east-eurasians' in the meaning of 'east caucasoids' or in the meaning of 'east-asians' ('mongoloids') because concerning aspect it is of importance, even aside pigmentation (not so evident by the way)?
If we want to discuss the phenotypes, it deserves a specific thread in Anthropology, not here. I've nothing against this because anrhropo/metrics and non-metrics can help to show some differences of origin between neigbouring pops.

 

[MarkoZ]

Also, Alan most Corded Ware genomes are MN admixed. Northern Europeans today can be modeled as 70% Corded Ware. The chances they'd look foreign to their descendants is low.

Yeah, history doesn't match a Nordicts fantasy but to distant Corded Ware or Yamnaya phenotypically from Europeans as you are is exaggerating how wrong they are.

But the measurements provided by the old anthropologists (who were Nordicist nuts mostly across the board) don't really match with recent Europeans. CW were more dolichocephalous and high-skulled than even present day Portuguese.

Eventually CW would have blended into the typically West Eurasian morphology, but the dimensions of their skulls go in the rather extreme direction of the Natufians or recent Bedouins.

 

[Fire Haired14]

White is layman's term for Eurpoid or whatever, it gets the same message across. No one should be allergeic to that word

 

[Angela]

Fire-Haired:But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European.

Where do you get this stuff? Do you have a crystal ball or a time machine or something? That's a vast over-statement.

Also, what's the "distinctively" European look these people had versus a northern West Asian look? Are you going back to only blonde, blue-eyed people are "distinctively" European? Well, if that's the case, those Yamnaya and Catacomb people were not "distinctively European" looking. Features? What, pray tell, are "distinctively European" features? Pug noses? It seems more than a few of the skulls show prominent, bony noses from what I remember.

Yes, these people had broadly "West Eurasian" ancestry, but to say they had a "distinctly" European appearance is bizarre and smacks of the basement anthropology of nordicist anthrofora.

When populations mix, a new "look" is created. So, the roughly half EHG/half CHG people of Yamnaya would not have looked like either of the parent populations.

When this steppe like population mixed with MN Europeans to produce Corded Ware the "appearance" doubtless changed again, and then changed again with more admixture.

If I had to guess and do some generalizing of my own, I would bet that the modern "looks" of various areas is only about 2,000 to 3000 years old, depending on the place.

The most amusing part of this thread is that someone actually brought up the cover art on romance novels. Those covers were only produced after extensive market research and testing. What that tells us is that young American women fantasize about tall, extremely muscular men who are usually darker than they are, often quite a bit darker...
http://www.publishersweekly.com/articles/blog/880000288/20080626/n91643.jpg

I wonder what these people are thinking as they pose for these ridiculous photos? I wish I brought my sweater? Do I have time to pick up my dry cleaning? I wish this guy would put a mint in his mouth?

Romance novels were very different when I was a teen-ager!
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71KRqiLII+L.jpg

I think they should make a film about Yamnaya and Catacomb. How about him for the star? Is he too "eastern" looking? I like Murat Yildirin a lot, but I think he has too much Levantine in him.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f4/ff/1d/f4ff1d90b0328c8cd67a6013bf780d9b.jpg

Or maybe him if they darken and roughen him up a bit?
http://i.sabah.com.tr/sbh/2016/06/05/650x344/1465117061953.jpg

Come on, guys, lighten up.

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Angela,

The fact that Yamnayaish people contributed a lot to Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they looked fairly European. The fact Corded Ware was basically the same as modern Northern Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they basically looked the same.

No knowledge in worldwide phenotype is needed. That's a super complex field and there's no where to learn from experts of the field because there are no experts and it isn't studied. So there's no point in having a Long debate about it, instead we should just go by who traces a lot of ancestry to them. And I just know from real life that there are distinctive middle eastern facial features you'll never find in Europeans and I'm sure in Yamnaya aswell. That plus genetics is why I corrected Alan who argued instead of being blonde gods they actually looked like west Asians.

There shouldn't be a suspicion someone is a nordicist if they suppose Yamnya or Corded ware looked a lot like Northern Europeans. It seems to me you do suspect that's the case if for whatever reason someone brings that up.

 

[Angela]

@Angela,

The fact that Yamnayaish people contributed a lot to Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they looked fairly European. The fact Corded Ware was basically the same as modern Northern Europeans is enough evidence for it to be likely they basically looked the same.

No knowledge in worldwide phenotype is needed. That's a super complex field and there's no where to learn from experts of the field because there are no experts and it isn't studied. So there's no point in having a Long debate about it, instead we should just go by who traces a lot of ancestry to them. And I just know from real life that there are distinctive middle eastern facial features you'll never find in Europeans and I'm sure in Yamnaya aswell. That plus genetics is why I corrected Alan who argued instead of being blonde gods they actually looked like west Asians.

There shouldn't be a suspicion someone is a nordicist if they suppose Yamnya or Corded ware looked a lot like Northern Europeans. It seems to me you do suspect that's the case if for whatever reason someone brings that up.

None of that is what you said originally.

Mulattos look neither "black" nor "white". Fifty percent ancestry isn't going to make northern Europeans look just like the Yamnaya, and the Yamnaya didn't look completely EHG, whatever that even was... You're dreaming or repeating hogwash you've heard elsewhere.

I am not going to debate with a teenager from Chicago who has no meaningful knowledge or experience to speak of in these matters. I might as well debate the phenotypes of Sicily with the basement anthropologist who has never set foot anywhere in Italy or the Near East or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[Fire Haired14]

None of that is what you said originally.

All of it is what I said originally. My argument has been Yamnaya and Corded Ware looked similar to Northern Europeans because they gave them a lot of ancestry. I responded to Alan who argued they looked like West Asians because they were probably the same color. I didn't randomly bring up this topic.

Mulattos don't look "white" to use your word. Fifty percent ancestry isn't going to make northern Europeans look just like the Yamnaya. You're dreaming.

Mixed populations have their own look is your own hypothesis. As I said before no body studies populations "looks" or whatever scientific word for it would be so I'll just treat that as your opinon not fact. What I *think*(not proven fact) you can't deny though is that some traits unique to Europeans can be traced back to the BA Steppe.

Arrogance without knowledge or experience convinces no one.

There's no such thing as a polite argument. Of course I've been a little belligerent but that doesn't take away the logic in my argument. How does it not make sense that population A looks a lot like population B who gave them 50% or even 70%(Corded Ware) of their ancestry?

 

[Angela]

Fire-Haired:But besides color they definitely looked distinctively European.

Learn to choose your words intelligently and carefully if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Tomenable]

Corded Ware. N=67.
mtDNA: Steppe 42% (28), Farmer 41% (27), Unknown 17% (12)
Y DNA: 100% Steppe.
Autosomal: ~75% Steppe, ~25% Farmer

There was some Non-Steppic Y-DNA as well (check samples from Jagodno in Poland).

 

[MarkoZ]

Mixed populations have their own look is your own hypothesis. As I said before no body studies populations "looks" or whatever scientific word for it would be so I'll just treat that as your opinon not fact. What I *think*(not proven fact) you can't deny though is that some traits unique to Europeans can be traced back to the BA Steppe.

There is not a single trait truly unique to Europeans - the closest you'll find to distinctive Europeans would probably be the representatives of the 'WHG branch', as Lazaridis calls it. This is because those humans spent enough time in a relatively cold climate (late Paleolithic into the Mesolithic) to develop a comparatively cold-adapted morphology. The same mechanisms were in place outside of Europe, but the WHGs got swamped there by later populations movements. The Neolithic and metal age migrations reverse this trend into a more gracile direction within Europe.

If I were to guess, Europeans would probably look a bit more 'Finnish' if it wasn't for these later migrations. Anecdotally it would seem that most modern Europeans are still insufficiently adapted to the climate they live in. Without soft tissue it would be almost impossible to tell apart a North African and an average European, yet the latter are starkly differentiated from moderately cold-adapted natives of the Altai and Mongolia, for example.

 

[johen]

edit................

 

[johen]

There is not a single trait truly unique to Europeans - the closest you'll find to distinctive Europeans would probably be the representatives of the 'WHG branch', as Lazaridis calls it. This is because those humans spent enough time in a relatively cold climate (late Paleolithic into the Mesolithic) to develop a comparatively cold-adapted morphology. The same mechanisms were in place outside of Europe, but the WHGs got swamped there by later populations movements. The Neolithic and metal age migrations reverse this trend into a more gracile direction within Europe.

If I were to guess, Europeans would probably look a bit more 'Finnish' if it wasn't for these later migrations. Anecdotally it would seem that most modern Europeans are still insufficiently adapted to the climate they live in. Without soft tissue it would be almost impossible to tell apart a North African and an average European, yet the latter are starkly differentiated from moderately cold-adapted natives of the Altai and Mongolia, for example.

I think East Europe at Bronze age was different

Several Mesolithic and early Neolithic populations dated to 10,000 – 6,000 years BC from Russia, Romania and Ukraine have been analysed by means of quantifying their 3D cranial shape. The whole sample comprised 85 individuals, including Mesolithic and Neolithic groups from Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov (Russia); Vasilievka, Voloshkoe and Vovnigi (Ukraine); Varasti (Romania); Itkul and Ust-Isha (South Siberia) and Locomotiv (East Siberia). A comparative set of modern populations was sampled to include representatives from Europe, Africa, Eastern Asia and (native) America. Apart from the standard geometric morphometric procedures, we cluster ordinated data to establish potential relationships between groups and use permutation of individual distances to establish the significance of the group differentiation. The method of analysis is first verified with the help of the modern populations that have varied geographical provenance. We establish that no cranial data, whether the face and the neurocranium are analysed together or separately, allow us to recover geographical relationships between the modern populations in our sample. Nevertheless, clusters that have been recovered with the help of the whole cranium data correspond well with the expected generic relationships between the sampled modern groups. As a result, we choose to analyse the shape of the complete cranium, where such is available, in fossil individuals as well. Our results highlight a high level of variation within Mesolithic and within Neolithic populations of the Eastern Europe and Siberia as compared with the pooled sample of the modern humans from different geographical locations worldwide. However, a certain structure among the analysed groups can still be revealed. The results suggest that Mesolithic groups from the Dnieper region have close morphological affinities with each other, while Yushny Oleni Ostrov have a large overlap with modern humans in general and with some of the mongoloid groups in particular. Neolithic groups are, on the whole, closer to modern populations than to the Mesolithic sample. At the same time, Siberian individuals show a complex pattern of morphological relationships which may be revealing of their genetic identity. On the whole, our results invite further discussion on the origins and affinities of the Eastern European Mesolithic and Early Neolithic groups as well as call for the research into the impact that the choice of data has on the results of 3D morphological analyses. Acknowledgements: This work has been supported by the grant of the Russian Foundation for Basic Research No № НК 13-06-00045.”

Debetz (1936), and Alexeev and Gokhman (1987) identified a so-called CroMagnon variety among the Bronze and Iron Age skeletal materials of European Russia and southern Siberia. This variety that combined the cranial robustness with a broad face, had its roots in the local Upper Palaeolithic

And I think this Up type is closely related with HG or Steppe mt DNAs of late neolithic/bronze age, not of mesolithic in the map:

 

[MOESAN]

all that is means, not enough typology not enough shapes -
I think there is a lack of imagination in analysis
we modern people in Europe are all "neolithicized" phenotypically speaking, not so much by genetic convergence but by general gracilization linked to way of life/environment constraints,not specially climatic, this whatever the genetic background which is far to be uniform - "on life" adaptation (gestation and post-birth life) and not only genetic selection - means metrics fails to analysis the components of crossings and can put us to do big mistakes about our true diverse origins - it's good analysing pops but individuals in pops give us a complement of information - the great sin in some surveys is to push us to believe in stable pops evolving by themselves (within) when in fact the % of diverse individuals composing them were changing from time to time by diverse historic moves - the two phenomenon co-exists: within evolution and new people introgressions -
a "gracilized" pop can can be the result of way-of-life or adaptative gracilization, but also by the addition of more naturally more gracile people: here is the question -

 

[Tomenable]

Mulattos look neither "black" nor "white". Fifty percent ancestry isn't going to make northern Europeans look just like the Yamnaya, and the Yamnaya didn't look completely EHG, whatever that even was... You're dreaming or repeating hogwash you've heard elsewhere.

This is more or less how an average Yamnaya man looked like (putting pigmentation aside). There was a large within-group variance among them (maybe even as large as in modern Europe), but the morph below averages few dozen images. While individual reconstructions can be biased, a morph made of many reconstructions should be relatively bias-free:

In my opinion this "average Yamnaya man" could easily pass as typical in all of Northern Europe.

Of course it doesn't mean that if you average modern Northern Europeans, you will also get this.

Mulattos look neither "black" nor "white".

Mulattos are Congoid-Caucasoid. The Yamnaya were mixed, but it was Caucasoid-Caucasoid.

So those populations ancestral to the Yamnaya were more similar to each other to begin with.

 

[MOESAN]

Tomenable, you know what I mean about averaging collective mensurations to produce this kind of "average man" - look at the 'average pops' produced by Dienekes some time ago - that said, if I take this picture, not as a mean type whic doesn't exist, but as a mean collective result of mensurations, it tell me these Steppes people was far enough of true 'cromagnoids' and were only as a mean large faced people with over-mean facial index and not true broad facial index (BTW it could be their 'brünnoid' input, always stronger in E-Europe than in West - higher jaw/narrower jaw spite broad bizygomatic's - associated to an increase in body stature (they were tall, whatever the reason) - all that said, we still know little about some crossings results upon means, not by force the expected results based upon "father types" means.
based on this picture I don't find it evocates something very typically northeuropean of any sort but facila reconstruction is an artistic sport -

 

[MOESAN]

among animals we see that according to the gender of parents, the crossings have not always exactly the same results - I doubt it would be so evident among Humans but it could have some input? We can be almost sure a lot of female lineages of East-Carpathian and North Caucasus pops participated in the demography of the Steppes tribes since Neolithic (maybe already before that) and not only at metals ages. it could be linked to diverse factors not exclusive one to another: rapts, pacific exchanges, climatic adaptative advantages of some mt-DNA at some stages of History (mt is not only "decorative")

 

[Tomenable]

MOESAN,

About Afanasievo, Andronovo, etc. phenotypes. Oshanin L. V., Antropological Composition of the population of Central Asia, and ethnogenesis of its peoples, 1964:

Another fragment: