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Thread: Indo European Haplogroups

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    Indo European Haplogroups

    Hello, I think we can all agree that R1b and R1a are Indo European Haplogroups, but what minority of other Haplogroups followed them on their conquest of Europe?E-v13? J2b? G-L497? Perhaps some N in there. Thoughts?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It depends on when and where certain haplogroups were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans, I believe I1 in Scandinavia came with the advance of Corded ware, given its age, but wasn't present in Yamna culture, and so was assimilated between these two events, that's just my theory.

    Haplogroup Q has some subclades that I believe to be Indo-European, like Q1a2b1 (L527) and Q1a2a1a2 (L804), the first is found exclusively in Scandinavia and places settled by the Vikings, and the second is found in Germany, Scandinavia and Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Hello, I think we can all agree that R1b and R1a are Indo European Haplogroups, but what minority of other Haplogroups followed them on their conquest of Europe?
    No, we can not all agree that R1b and R1a are "Indo-European" haplogroups. These two haplogroups are just too old to be connected to the Indo-Europeans. Specific clades of these haplogroups can be considered as "indo-European" but these clades are the minority. R1b evolved in West Asia and all basal forms of R1b exist only there (R1b*, R1b-L389* etc.). So many of the R1b clades are of pre-Indo-European-Proto-Near Eastern stock.
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    .................................................. ...........
    Last edited by Rethel; 01-04-17 at 17:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    No, we can not all agree that R1b and R1a are "Indo-European" haplogroups. These two haplogroups are just too old to be connected to the Indo-Europeans. Specific clades of these haplogroups can be considered as "indo-European" but these clades are the minority. R1b evolved in West Asia and all basal forms of R1b exist only there (R1b*, R1b-L389* etc.). So many of the R1b clades are of pre-Indo-European-Proto-Near Eastern stock.
    This logic is similar to saying that the internet can't be a human invention, because the homo sapiens sapiens appeared 200,000 years ago. The point is, even if R1b* and R1a* are much older than the PIE language, PIE almost certainly originated and developed among R1b and/or R1a folks, regardless of the specific subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    This logic is similar to saying that the internet can't be a human invention, because the homo sapiens sapiens appeared 200,000 years ago. The point is, even if R1b* and R1a* are much older than the PIE language, PIE almost certainly originated and developed among R1b and/or R1a folks, regardless of the specific subclades.
    Possibly but not necessarily. IE language could have been language of Iranian Farmers who mixed with East Yamnaya Hunter Gatherers, or language or Cucuteni who influenced West Yamnaya. We might never know. What is likely is that wherever the steppe populations expended people started speaking IE language. It correlates with R1a and R1b the main haplogroups of steppe and eastern Europe. The main thing in deciphering this dilemma will be to figure out, who united all the tribes under Yamnaya and gave all people there one language.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    IE language could have been language of Iranian Farmers who mixed with East Yamnaya Hunter Gatherers
    It is by no means sure that Iranian Farmers mixed with steppe populations. Lazaridis modeled it only to show a three way model fitted better than a two way model and explained in the comment section of Davidski that his is not the final word.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...78404372112535

    I would think it nearly impossible that Iranian farmers migrated north of the Caucasus. First, Yamnaya and Iranian farmers have different uniparental markers. Secondly, Yamnaya was a pastoral culture whereas Iranian farmers depended greatly on cereals. Considering the fact that Ukraine mostly has Löss soils and is one the most fertile area's in the world - it still is one of the worlds bread baskets - it would be hugely strange if migrating farmers didn't use these for cereal growing on a vast scale. However, archaeological evidence points to minor cereal growing in Yamnaya culture.

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    raspberry

    The consensus is that R1a M417 and R1b M269 are IE. What was before them is not relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It is by no means sure that Iranian Farmers mixed with steppe populations. Lazaridis modeled it only to show a three way model fitted better than a two way model and explained in the comment section of Davidski that his is not the final word.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...78404372112535

    I would think it nearly impossible that Iranian farmers migrated north of the Caucasus. First, Yamnaya and Iranian farmers have different uniparental markers. Secondly, Yamnaya was a pastoral culture whereas Iranian farmers depended greatly on cereals. Considering the fact that Ukraine mostly has Löss soils and is one the most fertile area's in the world - it still is one of the worlds bread baskets - it would be hugely strange if migrating farmers didn't use these for cereal growing on a vast scale. However, archaeological evidence points to minor cereal growing in Yamnaya culture.
    Well, if they weren't Iranian farmers they were a hell of a lot like them genetically.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    raspberry

    The consensus is that R1a M417 and R1b M269 are IE. What was before them is not relevant.
    He said that "R1a/b are IE". - that is wrong. A R1b* from Saudi Arabia is from a R1b clade which never left the Near East. I am from R1b-L389>V1636 and this clade has also nothing to do with IEs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    This logic is similar to saying that the internet can't be a human invention, because the homo sapiens sapiens appeared 200,000 years ago. The point is, even if R1b* and R1a* are much older than the PIE language, PIE almost certainly originated and developed among R1b and/or R1a folks, regardless of the specific subclades.
    The thing is: there are clades of R1b who are from proto-Near Eastern R1b stock. Lumping all clades of R1b together as "IE" is just wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, if they weren't Iranian farmers they were a hell of a lot like them genetically.
    It were rather late Iranians that fitted well. If you read Lazaridis well you'll notice that while originally quite distinct after a while the three Middle Eastern populations started to mix. That means that the fitting has a tad Anatolian admixture. Davidski modeled Yamnaya successfully as 50% EHG, 40% CHG and 10% Late European neolithic. Lengyel to be specific. Both fits would in that case be a proxy for something else, quite possibly meaning that Yamnaya had a noticable CT admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It is by no means sure that Iranian Farmers mixed with steppe populations. Lazaridis modeled it only to show a three way model fitted better than a two way model and explained in the comment section of Davidski that his is not the final word.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...78404372112535

    I would think it nearly impossible that Iranian farmers migrated north of the Caucasus. First, Yamnaya and Iranian farmers have different uniparental markers. Secondly, Yamnaya was a pastoral culture whereas Iranian farmers depended greatly on cereals. Considering the fact that Ukraine mostly has Löss soils and is one the most fertile area's in the world - it still is one of the worlds bread baskets - it would be hugely strange if migrating farmers didn't use these for cereal growing on a vast scale. However, archaeological evidence points to minor cereal growing in Yamnaya culture.
    It would make sense if not the fact that Yamnayas changed genetically from what they represented as pure hunter gatherers. The only way to explain the change is if they had mixed with Iranian Neolithic in fairly large proportions.
    Here is an example based on HarappaWorld admixtures. This is a best model for Yamnaya I've found from all the available sources. Mind that we might not have the perfect/true source yet. First 3 samples are the source, above are the proportions. 27% of IN, 68% EHG and 5% WHG (for some reason). 4th is the model made out of the sources, and 4th a real Yamnayan to compare to.
    0.27 0.68 0.05
    M967114 I1290 M737081 M325047 KO1, I-L68 Model Yamnaya M828815 Rise552
    Iranian Neolithic 10 kya Kvalinsk HG (I0122+I0124+I0433) Hungarian, Tiszaszőlős-Domaháza 7.7 kya Ulan iV, Yamnaya 4.5 kya
    Run time 7.91 Run time 8.15 Run time 9.43 Run time Run time 9.08
    S-Indian 6.13 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 1.66 S-Indian 0
    Baloch 62.71 Baloch 20.2 Baloch 0 Baloch 30.67 Baloch 33.24
    Caucasian 24.97 Caucasian 0 Caucasian 0 Caucasian 6.74 Caucasian 6.58
    NE-Euro 0 NE-Euro 71.08 NE-Euro 80.37 NE-Euro 52.35 NE-Euro 56.02
    SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0
    Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian 0 Siberian - Siberian 0
    NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian - NE-Asian 0
    Papuan 0.35 Papuan 0 Papuan 0.53 Papuan 0.12 Papuan 0
    American 0 American 6.89 American 0 American 4.69 American 2.46
    Beringian 0 Beringian 1.7 Beringian 0 Beringian 1.16 Beringian 0.75
    Mediterranean 0 Mediterranean 0 Mediterranean 18.59 Mediterranean 0.93 Mediterranean 0
    SW-Asian 3.88 SW-Asian 0 SW-Asian 0 SW-Asian 1.05 SW-Asian 0
    San 0.18 San 0 San 0 San 0.05 San 0
    E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African 0 E-African - E-African 0
    Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy - Pygmy 0
    W-African 1.78 W-African 0.13 W-African 0.5 W-African 0.59 W-African 0.95

    About farming in Yamnaya. I would say that Iranian variety of crops were not suitable for large scale agriculture, and better results of food production was made by herding. It is a different story with modern Ukraine where modern variety of crops grow much better.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It were rather late Iranians that fitted well. If you read Lazaridis well you'll notice that while originally quite distinct after a while the three Middle Eastern populations started to mix. That means that the fitting has a tad Anatolian admixture. Davidski modeled Yamnaya successfully as 50% EHG, 40% CHG and 10% Late European neolithic. Lengyel to be specific. Both fits would in that case be a proxy for something else, quite possibly meaning that Yamnaya had a noticable CT admixture.
    Yes, well, he modelled a lot of people with Sintashta and Andronovo admixture too, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

    I'll wait for reputable labs like the Reich one to opine on all of this after they release all their samples.

    Oh, and I'm quite aware of what Lazaridis proposed in the papers and what he said in that comment. You're reading far too much into the latter, imo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Hello, I think we can all agree that R1b and R1a are Indo European Haplogroups, but what minority of other Haplogroups followed them on their conquest of Europe?E-v13? J2b? G-L497? Perhaps some N in there. Thoughts?
    We can't all agree. Because we don't have to accept the mainstream hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    The thing is: there are clades of R1b who are from proto-Near Eastern R1b stock. Lumping all clades of R1b together as "IE" is just wrong.
    Who knows, maybe Iranian Farmers who came to Yamnaya were from Northern Iran rich in R1b. They could have brought more additional R1b to Yamnaya.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, well, he modelled a lot of people with Sintashta and Andronovo admixture too, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

    I'll wait for reputable labs like the Reich one to opine on all of this after they release all their samples.
    Again, Iranian admixture would require one to believe that wheat farmers settled in an area that is one of the best areas in the world to grow wheat yet became pastoralists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh, and I'm quite aware of what Lazaridis proposed in the papers and what he said in that comment. You're reading far too much into the latter, imo.
    How can one read too much in a comment that basically states that some other fit could work as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Mind that we might not have the perfect/true source yet. First 3 samples are the source, above are the proportions.
    Exactly my point. CT comes to mind because it is close by and there is archaeological evidence of influence of CT in Sredny Stog.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    About farming in Yamnaya. I would say that Iranian variety of crops were not suitable for large scale agriculture, and better results of food production was made by herding. It is a different story with modern Ukraine where modern variety of crops grow much better.
    https://www.ufz.de/export/data/2/792..._Map_hires.jpg

    That is a map of Löss soils. LBK dispersal in Europe followed it almost exactly. LBK grew a lot of cereals. Look at the Ukraine, it is even better. Löss was the kind of soil early neolithics followed because it is enormously fertile and apparently the neolithic package worked well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Again, Iranian admixture would require one to believe that wheat farmers settled in an area that is one of the best areas in the world to grow wheat yet became pastoralists.

    How can one read too much in a comment that basically states that some other fit could work as well?
    As I said upthread, all those great fits for certain populations using Andronovo and Sintashta are now questionable based on ancient dna aren't they? Some people use language very precisely.

    I don't know how this happened. Perhaps we are indeed talking about an as yet unsampled population which moved onto the steppe a long time ago.

    What I find hard to credit is that CHG percentages like this in Yamnaya came from CT, unless you suspect that there was a heavily CHG population hiding there? What also happened to all the trading for wives from the Caucasus talk?

    This is from the Reich Lab...

    Martina Unterlander et al:
    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615

    Martina Unterlander et al Steppe populations - Scythians.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It is by no means sure that Iranian Farmers mixed with steppe populations. Lazaridis modeled it only to show a three way model fitted better than a two way model and explained in the comment section of Davidski that his is not the final word.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...78404372112535

    I would think it nearly impossible that Iranian farmers migrated north of the Caucasus. First, Yamnaya and Iranian farmers have different uniparental markers. Secondly, Yamnaya was a pastoral culture whereas Iranian farmers depended greatly on cereals. Considering the fact that Ukraine mostly has Löss soils and is one the most fertile area's in the world - it still is one of the worlds bread baskets - it would be hugely strange if migrating farmers didn't use these for cereal growing on a vast scale. However, archaeological evidence points to minor cereal growing in Yamnaya culture.
    All the samples we have thus far come from extreme Western Iran. It is from Central and Eastern Iran, as well as South-Central Asia (esp. Turkmenistan) that the herding economy spread into the northern grasslands according to most archaeologists who've worked there. Sulimirski and more recently Sergent have very interesting views on these matters. I think the latter derives even Samara from Iran, namely from the cultural layers associated with Djebel cave from north-eastern Iran and the Turkmen Balkans.

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