Classification

[Angela]

According to you if someone is a hunter gatherer and another one is a farmer then these individuals have to differ because of their supposed "job". Genetic doesn't work this way
It seems you completely don't understand autosomal components and have a 2 way thinking "It's European and the other component not" but in a nutshell i try to explain why this is nothing but a logical fallacy.

Anatolia Neolithic: (Used to peak in Asia Minor, nowadays it's distributed among the Mediterranean shores. As I've seen it peaks in Sardinia followed by North Africa and Southernmost Europe)

38.7% Iran Neolithic
33.9% Levant_Neolithic (mostly Natufian)
27.4% WHG

EEF (European Early Neolithic) - Basically the same as Anatolia Neolithic

92.9% Anatolia Neolithic
7.1% WHG

CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer)

71.6% Iran_Neolithic
21.4% EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer)

As you can see both the Anatolian Neolithic and the CHG has major Iran Neolithic related genomes which is basically no different from Iran Neolithic because these components share the same with Iran Neolithic as well with Levant Neolithic and WHG/EHG. I don't care to explain furthermore wither you understand it or not.

Yes you're right about the spamming, but it's interesting how some people think all Europeans look the same and the Middle East is completely different, because in their book being European is something unique rather a dynasty which is about to downfall forever due to migrations, low birthrates and because of the same agenda which tries to throw any European nations under the bus.

Those numbers are not, I repeat NOT the breakdown for the early Anatolian farmers who went to Europe.

That kind of breakdown is for later periods, when the Iranian farmer input had moved south and west. The proof is that the EEF, who are the Anatolian Neolithic people plus a few percent WHG, have almost no Iranian Neolithic.

Even your beloved, outdated gedmatch analyses show that.

Don't ever again present data without citations or references. One more attempt to cheat and present false data and you're out of here.

 

[MarkoZ]

According to you if someone is a hunter gatherer and another one is a farmer then these individuals have to differ because of their supposed "job". Genetic doesn't work this way
It seems you completely don't understand autosomal components and have a 2 way thinking "It's European and the other component not" but in a nutshell i try to explain why this is nothing but a logical fallacy.

Anatolia Neolithic: (Used to peak in Asia Minor, nowadays it's distributed among the Mediterranean shores. As I've seen it peaks in Sardinia followed by North Africa and Southernmost Europe)

38.7% Iran Neolithic
33.9% Levant_Neolithic (mostly Natufian)
27.4% WHG

EEF (European Early Neolithic) - Basically the same as Anatolia Neolithic

92.9% Anatolia Neolithic
7.1% WHG

CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer)

71.6% Iran_Neolithic
21.4% EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer)

As you can see both the Anatolian Neolithic and the CHG has major Iran Neolithic related genomes which is basically no different from Iran Neolithic because these components share the same with Iran Neolithic as well with Levant Neolithic and WHG/EHG. I don't care to explain furthermore wither you understand it or not.

Yes you're right about the spamming, but it's interesting how some people think all Europeans look the same and the Middle East is completely different, because in their book being European is something unique rather a dynasty which is about to downfall forever due to migrations, low birthrates and because of the same agenda which tries to throw any European nations under the bus.

Most of the relatedness probably comes from the shared substratum that derives from the 'WHG' branch that seems to be evenly spread in the Middle East. The intrusive Basal Eurasian reached North Iran already in the Epipaleolithic, so it's another likely factor in drawing those populations closer together. This shared ancestry makes it possible to create all kinds of models, since there are no samples that ante-date the convergence of populations in Asia Minor and vicnity. I wouldn't put too much stock into these, at least not until they are carefully tested against others models to see how they hold up. Judging from the models published by Lazaridis and others, Iran_Neolithic seems to be only very weakly related to those Anatolians, despite geographic proximity. The authors of the recent paper about Neolithic Iberians whose names I forgot dubbed the former he 'Central Asian', which the Spanish farmers had at near-noise levels only.

 

[brg12007]

i do agree that south eastern europeans do seem to appear on a continuum ethnically with the middle east towards central europe. in any given family you're able to find relatives who look like the above photos of various west asian populations, just as you might have a relative who could look like a fairer northern european. OP to me could probably pass most places in europe, though he may not definitively look like a native.

 

[Heracles]

i do agree that south eastern europeans do seem to appear on a continuum ethnically with the middle east towards central europe. in any given family you're able to find relatives who look like the above photos of various west asian populations, just as you might have a relative who could look like a fairer northern european. OP to me could probably pass most places in europe, though he may not definitively look like a native.

Where would I pass as a native in your opinion?

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

 

[brg12007]

haha, well bear in mind i'm not very good at classifications, there is something kind of celtic about your appearance, but you definitely don't look like your typical irishman. i would say greece, parts of italy, maybe croatia or poland?

 

[Heracles]

haha, well bear in mind i'm not very good at classifications, there is something kind of celtic about your appearance, but you definitely don't look like your typical irishman. i would say greece, parts of italy, maybe croatia or poland?

Heard all these resemblances before so maybe you are right. I gather opinions to extract a summary.
I wish I knew a professional anthropologist who isnt bound by PC police and race blindness

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

 

[Boreas]

There is no such a Greek Type,

As in Italy, there are clear difference between Greeks in South - North.

Let's remember Alexander's Hellenism.

East Roman Hellenism

Hellenism in Ottoman, Yes in Turk-Greek marriage, people became Turk. Similarily, Levantine people of Ottoman usually did marriage with Greeks and these people latinazed too. However in Bulgar/Serb-Greek marriage, people became Greek.

I don't metion about Greek people exodus from Egypt to Russia. Greeks who mixed with locals but kept Greek identity during the all time, run to Greece in the past century.

For me, Heracles

You are looking more Balkanic then Mediterrean type.

BTW Why do you torture us? Do the test and share the results :grin:

 

[Heracles]

There is no such a Greek Type,

As in Italy, there are clear difference between Greeks in South - North.

Let's remember Alexander's Hellenism.

East Roman Hellenism

Hellenism in Ottoman, Yes in Turk-Greek marriage, people became Turk. Similarily, Levantine people of Ottoman usually did marriage with Greeks and these people latinazed too. However in Bulgar/Serb-Greek marriage, people became Greek.

I don't metion about Greek people exodus from Egypt to Russia. Greeks who mixed with locals but kept Greek identity during the all time, run to Greece in the past century.

For me, Heracles

You are looking more Balkanic then Mediterrean type.

BTW Why do you torture us? Do the test and share the results :grin:

What the hell is balkanic?
If you mean dna test, if I had the money I would[emoji14]

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

 

[Odysseus]

Here in South-Africa where I live white people are mostly mixed-European and come from different European backgrounds like Dutch , British , Scandinavian , Italian , French ect.
one of my brother's gym partners is 6'6 ft tall guy & almost look identical to you , Overall I think you look more Spanish than Greek , that's just my opinion.

 

[Yetos]

There is no such a Greek Type,

As in Italy, there are clear difference between Greeks in South - North.

Let's remember Alexander's Hellenism.

East Roman Hellenism

Hellenism in Ottoman, Yes in Turk-Greek marriage, people became Turk. Similarily, Levantine people of Ottoman usually did marriage with Greeks and these people latinazed too. However in Bulgar/Serb-Greek marriage, people became Greek.

I don't metion about Greek people exodus from Egypt to Russia. Greeks who mixed with locals but kept Greek identity during the all time, run to Greece in the past century.

For me, Heracles

You are looking more Balkanic then Mediterrean type.

BTW Why do you torture us? Do the test and share the results :grin:

AboutGreek
About Greek Serb BulgarIan and generally Slavic mixed marriage you are wrong,
In Greece and in Serbia and Bulgaria there were populations that had a small % of mix,
But after the revolts and especially the 1 WW that ended,
many Greeks and Serbs and Bulgarians change country, and those who remained changed nativity,
there was an equality among them,
even among Greece and Fyrom there was an unoffcial exchange of population,
except the case of civil war.

 

[Boreas]

AboutGreek
About Greek Serb BulgarIan and generally Slavic mixed marriage you are wrong,

No, I am not. I couldn't tell what I mean or you didn't get it well.

Greek culture is one of the dominant Culture in History. It was like that also in Ottoman.

Not more then Dominant from Turk (Turk-Greek mariages ended with Turk, this is your opinion and I totally agree with it)

In same way, Bulgar-Greek marriages ended with Greeks. Secondly probably as a result of one of the biggest acceptted culture in Ottoman many non greek orphants rase in Greek schools.

In Greece and in Serbia and Bulgaria there were populations that had a small % of mix,
But after the revolts and especially the 1 WW that ended,
many Greeks and Serbs and Bulgarians change country, and those who remained changed nativity,
there was an equality among them,
even among Greece and Fyrom there was an unoffcial exchange of population,
except the case of civil war.

I was talking about Hellenisation/Greekification during all the history, not last century.

 

[Pratt]

You look Greek.

 

[Diomedes]

C'mon OP. Do not be defensive. You look like a typical Greek of today's Greece. We Greeks, and generally the people around the Mediterranean, tend to have similar phenotypes. Specifically for us Greeks, we can find similarities with people in Southern Italy (Magna Graecia), Southern Albania (Northern Epirus), and parts of Turkey close to the Aegean and Pontus Euxinus.

 

[Yetos]

No, I am not. I couldn't tell what I mean or you didn't get it well.

Greek culture is one of the dominant Culture in History. It was like that also in Ottoman.

Not more then Dominant from Turk (Turk-Greek mariages ended with Turk, this is your opinion and I totally agree with it)

In same way, Bulgar-Greek marriages ended with Greeks. Secondly probably as a result of one of the biggest acceptted culture in Ottoman many non greek orphants rase in Greek schools.



I was talking about Hellenisation/Greekification during all the history, not last century.

Hellenisation is a true and a strange story,
but same as Hellenisation worked,
worked Italization Romanisation Slavisation Albanisation Arabisation and Ottomanisation,
and although marriages contribute to that,
major factor are other reasons,
for example in Syria the time of Seleukids we had big Hellenisation,
but that was not due to marriages,
same at Philadelpheia Magnesia (Manissa)
we had Ottomanisation and force to change language, but that does really mean a big mix due to marriages,
but after 2-3 generations the one change become one with the ones who change them as conserns the marriage

The difference among Greek or Slav -Turkey marriages was major that islam was primary religion at Ottoman times,
but at an common marriage, among the rest major role played the male origin,
for example a marriage among a Greek male and a Bulgarian female turns to Greek
but a marriage among a Bulgarian male and a Greek female ends to Bulgarian
That rule is far old as I know, (except Aegean islands and some isolated villages) for Haimos peninsula and Turkey
and is a kind of a small shame to stay at your wifes house family

 

[Heracles]

I am not defensive, I just want to figure out my genetic and phenotype past.
When you say, of todays Greece, what do you mean? How were the ancient Greeks different? Can you ellaborate?

 

[Nik]

I'll share my opinion as I've lived among many ethnicities you were compared to and in several regions of the world.

1. Races/subraces are not defined by modern borders, so being from the Mediterranean and asking if there are non European influences makes no sense. You fit perfectly in the country you come from, as well as in the region you come from.

2. If you want to compare your phenotype to that of other countries, let me tell you that i've met Bulgarians and Macedonians that are similar to you, seen guys from Thessaloniki that have more or less an identical mix of features as you, and I know many Spaniards (lived there) that look like you, and I spend most of the year in the middle east for work and have known plenty of Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians (not Syrians though) who look just like you, being very tall as well. In general, since I'm Albanian, what separates the Albanians from Greeks in appearance is the Lebanese-like features in Greeks, while Albanians could overlap only with Syrians.

3. Strangely, although Italy has been almost like my second home, I haven't really seen Italians looking similar to you (including the height).

4. Not really addressed to you but in general to people who think that South Albanians can overlap with Greeks or that you can fit in Albania, I completely disagree for the simple reason that what is called a typical South Albanian is really just the excessive Alpine type, which has nothing to do with what is known as the typical Greek look. You're more likely to find your type in the coastal areas of Albania from North to South (especially North), on the coastal Montenegro, or even in Kosovo, where the Mediterranoids are far more present and mixed with Dinaroids (or CM) just like you (my opinion).

So about your phenotype, I believe you're Mediterranean (eastern version of Atlanto-Mod) blended Dinaroid, hence your Ancient Greek ideal appearance which was a Dinaricized Med.

I would like to share that interestingly enough, many very tall Albanian, Montenegrin, and Serbs are not Dinaroids but Dinaric+Meds, and from my personal experience they're way taller than their Dinaric/Borreby-like fathers. I always assumed it has something to do with the disproportional long lengs of the Dinaroids, that when mixed with Atlanto-Meds the body tries to make itself more proportional and develops a longer trunk If anyone has noticed the same and has a better explanation behind the reason why Dinaric+Atlanto-Med end up taller than Dinarics please share as I've wondered all my life.

 

[Diomedes]

I just stated what I have seen given my own experience in our country, that is why I used the term in "today's Greece". I am not expert whatsoever on phenotypes. For this, there are other people who can help you and I believe quite a few have given you an answer.

I feel you try to prove your "greakness(sic)" based on your looks. I believe there's no point in doing this. We are Greeks, some will say Neo-Hellenes, and that's all.

I am not defensive, I just want to figure out my genetic and phenotype past.
When you say, of todays Greece, what do you mean? How were the ancient Greeks different? Can you ellaborate?

 

[Heracles]

I just stated what I have seen given my own experience in our country, that is why I used the term in "today's Greece". I am not expert whatsoever on phenotypes. For this, there are other people who can help you and I believe quite a few have given you an answer.

I feel you try to prove your "greakness(sic)" based on your looks. I believe there's no point in doing this. We are Greeks, some will say Neo-Hellenes, and that's all.

No, you cannot disregard the ancestry or phenotype when you characterize "greekness". Being Greek is foremost genetic and ancestral. A mongoloid or negroid or arabid cannot be greek.
Along and after ancestry comes the spirituality.

And yes, I try to find my past, since we cant find data beyond 1700 in my family history. And im trying to trace my ancestry through anthropology and genetics(i have ordered a DNA paternal and maternal test!).

Wanting to find your genetic and national identity isnt to be looked down, but to be encouraged.

 

[Heracles]

I'll share my opinion as I've lived among many ethnicities you were compared to and in several regions of the world.

1. Races/subraces are not defined by modern borders, so being from the Mediterranean and asking if there are non European influences makes no sense. You fit perfectly in the country you come from, as well as in the region you come from.

2. If you want to compare your phenotype to that of other countries, let me tell you that i've met Bulgarians and Macedonians that are similar to you, seen guys from Thessaloniki that have more or less an identical mix of features as you, and I know many Spaniards (lived there) that look like you, and I spend most of the year in the middle east for work and have known plenty of Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians (not Syrians though) who look just like you, being very tall as well. In general, since I'm Albanian, what separates the Albanians from Greeks in appearance is the Lebanese-like features in Greeks, while Albanians could overlap only with Syrians.

3. Strangely, although Italy has been almost like my second home, I haven't really seen Italians looking similar to you (including the height).

4. Not really addressed to you but in general to people who think that South Albanians can overlap with Greeks or that you can fit in Albania, I completely disagree for the simple reason that what is called a typical South Albanian is really just the excessive Alpine type, which has nothing to do with what is known as the typical Greek look. You're more likely to find your type in the coastal areas of Albania from North to South (especially North), on the coastal Montenegro, or even in Kosovo, where the Mediterranoids are far more present and mixed with Dinaroids (or CM) just like you (my opinion).

So about your phenotype, I believe you're Mediterranean (eastern version of Atlanto-Mod) blended Dinaroid, hence your Ancient Greek ideal appearance which was a Dinaricized Med.

I would like to share that interestingly enough, many very tall Albanian, Montenegrin, and Serbs are not Dinaroids but Dinaric+Meds, and from my personal experience they're way taller than their Dinaric/Borreby-like fathers. I always assumed it has something to do with the disproportional long lengs of the Dinaroids, that when mixed with Atlanto-Meds the body tries to make itself more proportional and develops a longer trunk If anyone has noticed the same and has a better explanation behind the reason why Dinaric+Atlanto-Med end up taller than Dinarics please share as I've wondered all my life.

Thank you for your response. It was very helpful!!

 

[Aaron1981]

My answer is a little different from others. You look more south European (Iberian especially) or west European to me with some mild Middle Eastern features. The main difference I see from Europeans is your eye shape and eye folds which is more Middle Eastern, otherwise the facial structure could pass anywhere in Europe really. (but esp west or south Europe)