Is E-V18 dinarid ???

[BalkanPower]

i see alot of kosovar albanians have it and they are conisdered dinarid. Is it because of high percentage of E-V18??

 

[Leka]

You mean to say V13? No, of course not.

 

[Apsurdistan]

It's in high to moderate frequency in Kosovars, Albanians, Montenegrins, and throughout Balkans. Although I2a-Din is officially Dinard E-V13 could be as well. You find I2a-Din in solid frequency outside of Dinaric alps as far as Belarus so I don't see why that's the only one that should be Dinaric.

 

[Dinarid]

I don't think any haplogroup inherently "belongs" to an early 20th century racial classification, although I do think it can be associated. It would seem that most of us Dinaric men belong to I-M423, but E-V13 (which I assume you mean to reference) is also quite important. We need to reference "Dinaric" features, as described by anthropologists of the time. It would seem that these features are indeed strongest in I-M423 populations among South Slavs. Montenegrins are almost evenly split between both, and we can see the differences vs. Bosnian Croats of 'New Herzegovina' as I'll call it, like myself.

We usually have relatively long, thin faces and slender bodies, long legs, dark hair, and brachycephaly, and we're usually hairy.

Montenegrins have very square faces with high cheekbones and very heavy square boxlike jaws (our jaws are described as narrow), small eyes (ours are very large), very robust bodies (though this is definitely not to say we are excessively slight) with proportionally much shorter legs, even greater brachycephaly than us, notably lighter features, and straight to moderately aquiline noses very rarely like ours that are indeed long and narrow but not as much, and less distinct but even more protruding chin. While the men are noted for being very tall people, they are not as tall as Bosnian Croat men (we are the tallest in the world).

Nikola, the man in the first part of this documentary on YouTube, looks very Montenegrin, although I would say the face is usually shorter with higher cheekbones.


Kosovar Albanians, as mentioned, also have high levels of Haplogroup E-V18 among men. I wish to point out that although they are of Gheg origin, they appear fundamentally different than the core Gheg population of the mountains of northern Albania. There is an study that goes in-depth with craniofacial measurements. Kosovar Albanians are overall a strongly brachycephalic population. Almost as a rule, they have very long, narrow faces with above-average height and below-average width.

This contrasts with the archetypal Dinaric population, as we have faces of great length but also considerable breadth. Kosovar Albanians appear very much "average" in height (European standards), if anything maybe ever-so-slightly on the shorter side. They are slight in build, and have long legs, and very dark hair and skin (compared to North Albanian Ghegs as well as other populations. The noses are indeed aquiline and generally long and narrow, but they are kind of "tapered" and flare out towards the bottom, which is much thicker. You can see pictures of this quite clearly on Google Images.

In conclusion, populations with especially high percentages of Haplogroup E-V13 among males seem to differ substantially from those surrounding them, but also with each other. It seems to me a good idea would be to look at Greek populations high in E-V13, and some Aromanian populations, to compare.

 

[Nik]

I don't think any haplogroup inherently "belongs" to an early 20th century racial classification, although I do think it can be associated. It would seem that most of us Dinaric men belong to I-M423, but E-V13 (which I assume you mean to reference) is also quite important. We need to reference "Dinaric" features, as described by anthropologists of the time. It would seem that these features are indeed strongest in I-M423 populations among South Slavs. Montenegrins are almost evenly split between both, and we can see the differences vs. Bosnian Croats of 'New Herzegovina' as I'll call it, like myself.

We usually have relatively long, thin faces and slender bodies, long legs, dark hair, and brachycephaly, and we're usually hairy.

Montenegrins have very square faces with high cheekbones and very heavy square boxlike jaws (our jaws are described as narrow), small eyes (ours are very large), very robust bodies (though this is definitely not to say we are excessively slight) with proportionally much shorter legs, even greater brachycephaly than us, notably lighter features, and straight to moderately aquiline noses very rarely like ours that are indeed long and narrow but not as much, and less distinct but even more protruding chin. While the men are noted for being very tall people, they are not as tall as Bosnian Croat men (we are the tallest in the world).

Nikola, the man in the first part of this documentary on YouTube, looks very Montenegrin, although I would say the face is usually shorter with higher cheekbones.

Very spot on analysis. I second everything said. If I can add an obvious detail, the Bosnian-Croat-like type appears more in Northern and Western Montenegrins where I always noticed the extremely long faces and darker pigmentation (mainly eyes). I attributed this to a Mediterranean strain as the eyes are too dark and big and combined with those long, narrow and oval faces they don't seem to be that Dinaric at all. I've also noticed that their occiputs are almost always less flattened and more Mediterranean-like.

Now with all due respect, I'd like to share my insights below as I don't completely agree. That is to say I respect your opinion as you're one of the most straight-forward posters in here and I'm simply trying to contribute since I have more knowledge on Albanians for obvious reasons.

Kosovar Albanians, as mentioned, also have high levels of Haplogroup E-V18 among men. I wish to point out that although they are of Gheg origin, they appear fundamentally different than the core Gheg population of the mountains of northern Albania. There is an study that goes in-depth with craniofacial measurements. Kosovar Albanians are overall a strongly brachycephalic population. Almost as a rule, they have very long, narrow faces with above-average height and below-average width.

I don't agree with the 'fundamentally different' part at all for the simple reason that you're comparing an average Kosovar Albanian with a specific Malsor Albanian from the mountains. Highlanders from Kosovo are almost identical to us (I'm a Malsor Albanian) in terms of everything, the only difference being probably slight regional differences which nobody has data on and can be a normal error. Gheg Albanians of both Albania and Kosovo differ among each other from the terrain they usually occupy, as in city dwellers (which are very diverse) vs lowland dwellers (less diverse than city) vs highlands (even less diverse and more Dinaric).

This contrasts with the archetypal Dinaric population, as we have faces of great length but also considerable breadth. Kosovar Albanians appear very much "average" in height (European standards), if anything maybe ever-so-slightly on the shorter side. They are slight in build, and have long legs, and very dark hair and skin (compared to North Albanian Ghegs as well as other populations. The noses are indeed aquiline and generally long and narrow, but they are kind of "tapered" and flare out towards the bottom, which is much thicker. You can see pictures of this quite clearly on Google Images.

There's no way Kosovars are on the shorter side of the European mean. I grew up mainly among Kosovars and they are always among the tallest ethnic groups, even taller than the Swiss. But I'm only comparing the young generations.

As for dark hair and skin, again I completely disagree as Kosovars are way lighter than Albanians from Albania on average, with Kosovars having a very high incidence of light hair and eyes for such a Southern country. People tend to distinguish a specific type and make that the stereotype of the entire nation, but truth is otherwise. They're lighter than us Albanians from Albania, and definitely Montenegrins and Serbs (excluding maybe the ones from Vojvodina) and Herzegovinians. I've actually never understood how Serbs and Montenegrins don't have lighter eyes and hair. Dark brown eyes are just too common, I'd say as common as in South Albania.

In conclusion, populations with especially high percentages of Haplogroup E-V13 among males seem to differ substantially from those surrounding them, but also with each other. It seems to me a good idea would be to look at Greek populations high in E-V13, and some Aromanian populations, to compare.

Again I disagree as us North Albanian Highland Ghegs have almost exclusively E-V13, J2b2, and R1b, just like Kosovars, yet we're so different from the Greeks and I'll even say that Herzegovinians, Serbs, and Greeks are way more similar to Greeks than Gheg Albanians.

On the other hand, its actually the North Albanian and Kosovo highlanders that have the highest incidence of Dinaric traits, while the South Slavs are a more Atlanto-Med or Borreby-like mix. It's strange how its usually the highlanders from Montenegro and Serbia the ones who look stereotypically Albanian.

What actually differentiates the 2 populations is the Alpine mix among Albanians and like I said earlier the Atlanto-Med/Borreby mix among South Slavs.

Therefore, E-V13 seems like a better candidate than I2a-Din for the Dinaric subrace, although thats not my belief at all.

 

[Fatherland]

South Slavs have little to none Dinaric phenotypes. Googling Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian or Croatian students is enough to show it is an extreme rarity among them.

Main characteristics in Dinaric phenotype: Wide forehead, flat occiput(and high/extreme brachycephaly), long face, prominent nose, wide bizygomatic(cheekbone area) and narrower jaw.
If you don't have all of those, then you are not Dinaric.


The ultimate Dinarization as described by Coon; Albanian Dinaric:

In contrast, Slavs often have short faces similar to the Lapps:

 

[Nik]

South Slavs have little to none Dinaric phenotypes. Googling Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian or Croatian students is enough to show it is an extreme rarity among them.

Googling people and deciding their phenotypes LOL

Book a ticket to the Balkans before u throw such ridiculous statements from the US (I think). And visiting ur home village during summer doesn't count.

In contrast, Slavs often have short faces similar to the Lapps:

Hey genius, we're talking about South Slavs here. If they dont have long faces then nobody else has.

It's the main characteristic that distinguishes the Albanians from South Slavs, the Albanians being more short faced due to Alpine admixture while the Slavic ex-Yugoslavs have the very long faces.

 

[Fatherland]

Googling people and deciding their phenotypes LOL

Book a ticket to the Balkans before u throw such ridiculous statements from the US (I think). And visiting ur home village during summer doesn't count.



Hey genius, we're talking about South Slavs here. If they dont have long faces then nobody else has.

It's the main characteristic that distinguishes the Albanians from South Slavs, the Albanians being more short faced due to Alpine admixture while the Slavic ex-Yugoslavs have the very long faces.

Your point is invalid and your posts are amateurish. Albanians have the longest faces in the Balkans. Slavs the shortest.

Alpine and Baltic is higher in Slavs which gives shorter faces shown in the map.

Albanians are predominantly Dinaric, followed by Atlanto-Med, Dinaro-Med, Med. Some with Alpine(in Tosks)/Borreby(in Ghegs) influence.

Albanians, particularily Ghegs are often described as leptomorphic or lean/slender, while Slavs endomorphic/thick-set. By Albanians having longer heads, the author clearly described the head height rather than length. Which also includes the face:


"The Serbs often have black or dark brown hair and are generally
darker and more heavily built than Albanians. Their appearance is fairly
typical of southern Slavs. By contrast, the Kosovars look Celtic to a
British eye. They have curly hair, which is often blonde or rust
coloured, and their skin tends to be very pale and covered in freckles.
Their eyes are often green or blue and their build is much more slender
than that of the Serbs. They have longer heads. It is not surprising
that they look so different as they belong to different races that have
very rarely intermarried."

This is even more understandable since Slavs were mostly agriculturalists while Albanians herders/highlanders.
Farming causes a thicker-set build.

 

[Nik]

@Fatherland, you're so clueless that I wonder why am I still talking to you when it's common knowledge that Albanians are way more Alpine mixed than Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosnians, and Croatians.