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The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

Angela said:
I've read again that the epicardial Avellanar sample snp tested positive for E-V13. If that's correct, could someone post a reliable source for that?

Anyway, the Croatian Cardial samples:
[TABLE="width: 90"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 90"]C1a2:V20:6845955G->A; C1a2:V86:6909957G->A; C1:CTS6773:17100606C->T; C1:F3393:23023974C->A;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E1b1b1a1b1:CTS3287:14801129A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5291:16189080T->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5527:16345952A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS7273:17396160C->T; E1b1b1a1b1:L618:15339697T->C; E1b1b1a1b1:PF2215:8262442A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:PF2246:22073053G->A; E1b1b1a:CTS8899:18538216C->A; E1b1b1a:L546:17516070C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2108:7804308C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2114:8232450C->A; E1b1b1a:PF2173:21036413C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2178:21583211C->A; E1b1b1a:PF2188:22080316G->A; E1b1b1:CTS2216:14221285G->T;

The link with the Cardial Neolithic for this branch of "E" is established, I think.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

the Cardial pre-L619 fits nicely with TMRCA dates of YFull (Cardial ware spread over the Adriatic ca 8 ka)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

I guess Avelaner was pre-L619 too, unless you find a reliable source (although pre-V13 would just fit the 7.6 ka TMRCA of L618 compared to 7.5 ka arival of Cardial Ware in Iberia)

a European origin for E-V13 seems almost certain.

note that the neolithic C1a2-V86 split 42.8 ka from the mesolithic La Brana C1a2-V20*, compared to 43.5 ka as the earliest date for the Aurignacian in Willendorf

https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V20/

H2 is almost extinct, C1a2 is less than 1 % of the European population
it shows that most neolithic branches got extinct, only a few branches re-expanded later, E-V13 being one of them
 
Angela said:
I've read again that the epicardial Avellanar sample snp tested positive for E-V13. If that's correct, could someone post a reliable source for that?
Click to expand...


According to the study it was tested for the V13 SNP:

Y-Chromosomal Results. For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups:G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individualave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).
Click to expand...

source: Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by menin the Neolithic dissemination


eIzBcmA.png
 
bicicleur said:
this is STR, not SNP for four of them (which ones?)
and at the time of this study, the split between L618* and E-V13 was not even known
Click to expand...

Y-Chromosomal Results. For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups:G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individualave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).
Click to expand...


The four mentioned markers are SNP markers: Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15. All samples were tested for these SNPs.

Regarding L618 they do not mention it in the study, so I don't understand how knowing or not knowing about L618 is relevant here? As they state in the study they tested only 4 SNPs.
 
Maciamo said:
Did I miss something? Where did this paper test Sredny Stog genomes? There were plenty of Neolithic Ukraine, but they date from 5500 to 4800 BCE, while Sredny Stog only starts from 4500 BCE. All the R1b in Neolithic Ukraine were very old L754 and L388 (not even P297 like in Latvia). None were M269+, let alone L23+.
Click to expand...

Dereivka is a Sredy Stog site. We have a bunch of Y DNA, I'm only seeing one autosomal sample in the admixture runs though, from a late period.
 
Angela said:
How very disappointing. I've wondered for years why the obvious contradictions and gaps weren't more vigorously investigated, and why alternate theories weren't more discussed. Follow the money perhaps, and it may be true today as well. It doesn't mean large parts of the kurgan hypothesis aren't correct, but it does explain why the more romanticized, "value-added" portions are still in circulation despite more recent research showing a lot of it is nonsense.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and if a study reveals that the steppe people were short, intellectually slow, and dark, it's under the rug in most stormfront/"anthro" circles. It's slightly different from setting books on fire.
 
Angela said:
I knew nothing of this Pearson person and his funding of the JIES. Are you sure about it?
Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately I'm sure about it. He founded it, funded it and actively published until the mid-1990s. One of the major contributors used to be Franz Altheim from the SS-Ahnenerbe :good_job:

W. H. Tucker, author of The Funding of Scientific Racism, has investigated these things in some detail. Pearson's definitely a charming fellow:

RogerPearson, for example, one of Pioneer's major recipients, waspreviously the pseudonymous publisher and editor of a journaldedicated to the view that World War II had been an attempt by theJews to bring about the complete "extermination or genocide of theGerman nation." After becoming a Pioneer grantee, Pearson's first two publications-extolling the importance of Nordic racial purityand praising the virtue of killing "the weaklings and misshapen"-appeared on the front page of White Power: The Revolutionary Voiceof National Socialism just under the large swastika serving as theperiodical's logo.
Click to expand...

Another journal spearheaded & founded by Pearson is Mankind Quartery which is responsible for much of the research concerning race and intelligence that's being disseminated lately (Lynn & others). This one's being cited regularly on various anthrofora and blogs.
 
MarkoZ said:
Yes, unfortunately I'm sure about it. He founded it, funded it and actively published until the mid-1990s. One of the major contributors used to be Franz Altheim from the SS-Ahnenerbe :good_job:

W. H. Tucker, author of The Funding of Scientific Racism, has investigated these things in some detail. Pearson's definitely a charming fellow:



Another journal spearheaded & founded by Pearson is Mankind Quartery which is responsible for much of the research concerning race and intelligence that's being disseminated lately (Lynn & others). This one's being cited regularly on various anthrofora and blogs.
Click to expand...
Good Lord! More fool I for not knowing any of this. As an excuse I certainly never saw any discussion of this in the respectable blogs. Perhaps the point was to keep this quiet. Even here we're not popular with some of our fellow members for discussing this. Too bad. Let the light in. At the very least, in other settings this would be called impeaching the witness. Any "facts" transmitted would be subject to the highest scrutiny.
 
bicicleur said:
The Basal K is linked with CHG, but K1 is linked with mesolithic Greece, Boncuklu and Tepecik, that is Y-DNA G2a.
Do we have the autosomal of the Iron Gates population? Of course the neolithic does, but also the mesolithic should contain EEF.

I also don't understand how U5 spread over both EHG and WHG.
It seems to me that R1 was linked with mtDNA C, but they soon took over U5, which I suspect was already all over Europe before R1 arrived there.
R1 were wanderers who prefered the local U5.
Click to expand...
I'm still plowing through the Supplement. :) Take a look at Supp. Table 2. It's the d-stats, and they've helpfully explained the results for the less numerate.

"[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]Ukraine Mesolithic, Neolithic and Iron_Gates_HG could be admixed relative to WHG and EHG. Iron_Gates_HG shares ancestry with Anatolian Neolithic.

[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]Trypillia has more HG ancestry than Balkans Chalcolithic and no Steppe ancestry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
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[/TABLE]
[/TD]
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[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
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[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]Varna has similar HG ancestry to Balkans Chalcolithic and no Steppe ancestry

[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]Varna and Trypillia outliers, and possibly Balkans Chalcolithic outlier (1 sample each) have Steppe ancestry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]The Anatolia Neolithic to Anatolia Bronze Age shift is driven by changes in CHG and Iran Neolithc ancestry not by migration from Steppe populations that have EHG ancestry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is mirrored by a similar shift in the Balkans Chalcolithic, but not in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So, as I speculated, was there already a movement of CHG/Iran Neo into southeastern Europe in the Chalcolithic?

All I can say is WOW! This is the real Behemoth paper. I guess there's going to be even more goodies in the upcoming Lazaridis paper.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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bicicleur said:
MOESAN said:
holderlin said:
OK, so.

This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:


  • We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this


Upstream E-V13 was also in cardial ware Avelaner Cave, no need for different waves to explain that.
Upstream E-V13 could have been in any wave, after all the E-V13 founder was 1 single man.
Click to expand...

If you read well one of my posts I wrote the Cardial people were physically partly distinct from the most of Balkans farmers: so yes some differences in proportions of lineages could explain this - but we need more Y-DNA from diverse cardial places (and rather before too much crossings with local WHG's) to assert this - I agree with you some Y-E1b could have been found in more than a group but I believe the proportions (%) between Y-G2a and Y-E1b were not the same ; I would bet very much more E1b among PPNB - cardial people having taken maritime+littoral routes westwards could have implied some mix of PPNB and farmers more anatolianlike spite staying rather anatolianlike -
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
bicicleur said:
what is steppe ancestry as opposed to EHG ancestry ?
Click to expand...
EHG + CHG/Iran Ch. like is how it's commonly been defined I think.

Read the tables, that's where they lay out all the proof for their conclusions
 
I-M223&dates.jpgI have put I-M223 I2a2a on a map you may have a better perspective with dates Moesan
MOESAN said:
in my quest towards BB's and towards a link with Y-I2a2 I was longing for a place between far West and far North-East, not too far from Vucedol and close to Moldavia and Tripolje, and I thought in the Carpathians: they are not too far from Balkans (at this date I did not know about I2a2 in Balkans) and we find some old I2a2 in Ukraina too - sure it proves nothing about BB's and some Y-I2a2 lineages have surely an other story,but my bet concerning geography was not to bad it seems -
Click to expand...
 
Angela said:
EHG + CHG/Iran Ch. like is how it's commonly been defined I think.

Read the tables, that's where they lay out all the proof for their conclusions
Click to expand...
Some of the modelers insist it's pure CHG, which would have to have been hiding out for thousands of years somewhere totally unchanged. Patterson, at least, seems to have the patience to occasionally sift through all those nonsense posts on Eurogenes. I would bet he's seen the discussions, and yet he's one of the authors of this paper and the paper very clearly says:

"[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]The Anatolia Neolithic to Anatolia Bronze Age shift is driven by changes in CHG and Iran Neolithc ancestry not by migration from Steppe populations that have EHG ancestry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is mirrored by a similar shift in the Balkans Chalcolithic, but not in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I would place more faith in the people who created some of these algorithms than people who just try to use them, even the ones who are well intentioned. Either way, it's a highly "Basal Eurasian" component.

The Lazaridis paper is the one which formulated it as a mix of EHG and something like Iran Chalcolithic, so perhaps the new Lazaridis paper will clarify matters.
 
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Check out pearsons Wikipedia page...what's with the stupid robe he's wearing in the photo...is he some member of a top secret English kkk division? Lolz.
Stupid skinhead.
 
Modern Anatolia is more than just EEF + Iran_Neo/CHG though. A lot of upheavals and changes happened to the Mid East in the later Bronze Age, perhaps with the entrance of the Hittites. Suddenly R1b appears, and no, it's not from central asian Turks.
 
Angela said:
I'm still plowing through the Supplement. :) Take a look at Supp. Table 2. It's the d-stats, and they've helpfully explained the results for the less numerate.

"[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]
[TABLE="width: 278"]
[TR]
[TD]An increase in CHG/Iran_N in Chalcolithic Anatolia is mirrored by a similar shift in the Balkans Chalcolithic, but not in Central Europe or Iberia Middle Neolithic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So, as I speculated, was there already a movement of CHG/Iran Neo into southeastern Europe in the Chalcolithic?

All I can say is WOW! This is the real Behemoth paper. I guess there's going to be even more goodies in the upcoming Lazaridis paper.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

I found a model I did few months ago when deciphering composition of Hungarian BA. I couldn't get it right without lots of Caucasian admixture. Here is one with 15% of Chalcolithic Armenian. Also it works well with Anatolian Chalcolithic, because they were quite similar.
So, first 3 are the source with proportions at the top, 4th is the composed model, and 5th actual Hungarian Bronze to compare how close I got. Almost a perfect match!

[TABLE="width: 693"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 57, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 17"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64, align: right"]0.35[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 14"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 13"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]M325047[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]KO1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]M536324[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]I1658[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Modeled[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Hungarian, h-g[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]7.7 kya[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]NE7 Hungary[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]Armenia EBA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]BA Hungary[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]BR1 Hungary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Run time[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]9.43[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]Population[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Run time[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]8.22[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Run time[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]Population[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.27[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.0405[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.8295[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]19.04[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]56.75[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]15.1765[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]14.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]80.37[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]16.69[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]4.79[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]46.745[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]46.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.53[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.265[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]18.59[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]56.18[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]5.88[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]29.84[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]31.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]7.96[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]6.45[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.7535[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.33[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.338[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.48[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Aaron1981 said:
Modern Anatolia is more than just EEF + Iran_Neo/CHG though. A lot of upheavals and changes happened to the Mid East in the later Bronze Age, perhaps with the entrance of the Hittites. Suddenly R1b appears, and no, it's not from central asian Turks.
Click to expand...
First of all we're not talking about modern Anatolia, we're talking about Copper and Bronze Age Anatolia.

Second of all, the only question is do they have the WHG/EHG which is important for the steppe hypothesis? The three published so far don't, correct.? They're from an upcoming Lazaridis paper. Probably there will be more in that paper and others coming out.

I don't know where they'll be from or what they'll show and neither do you. So, we'll have to wait and see. Whatever they show, they show.
 
LeBrok said:
I found a model I did few months ago when deciphering composition of Hungarian BA. I couldn't get it right without lots of Caucasian admixture. Here is one with 15% of Chalcolithic Armenian. Also it works well with Anatolian Chalcolithic, because they were quite similar.
So, first 3 are the source with proportions at the top, 4th is the composed model, and 5th actual Hungarian Bronze to compare how close I got. Almost a perfect match!

[TABLE="width: 693"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 57, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 17"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64, align: right"]0.35[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 14"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 13"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 16"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 64"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]M325047[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]KO1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]M536324[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]I1658[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Modeled[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Hungarian, h-g[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]7.7 kya[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]NE7 Hungary[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]Armenia EBA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]BA Hungary[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]BR1 Hungary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Run time[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]9.43[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]Population[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Run time[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]8.22[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Run time[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, width: 128, colspan: 2"]Population[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.27[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.0405[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.8295[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]19.04[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]56.75[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]15.1765[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]14.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]80.37[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]16.69[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]4.79[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]46.745[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]46.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.53[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.265[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]18.59[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]56.18[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]5.88[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]29.84[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]31.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]7.96[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]6.45[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.7535[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]3.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.33[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.338[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl242"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl242, align: right"]0.48[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
So, contrary to what they say, it could have reached up to Hungary, yes, which counts as Central Europe, in my book? Great work, Le Brok! Could that have something to do with the J2a in Sopot and later in BR2?

It's Hungary Bronze Age which seems to be correlated with Southern Europe.

Wait a minute. Wouldn't that mean Hungary Bronze Age has no real "steppe"?

Ed.There's steppe in Balkans Bronze Age, although it's sporadic, late, and much less than in northern Europe, so it should show up in Bronze Age Hungary? Anyone have d-stats for those samples?
 
Last edited:
Angela said:
So, contrary to what they say, it could have reached up to Hungary, yes, which counts as Central Europe, in my book? Great work, Le Brok! Could that have something to do with the J2a in Sopot and later in BR2?
Click to expand...
I can't explain it by any other way than a mass migration/invasion from Anatolia/Armenia. The amount of Caucasian needed to explain is huge, and it is in short supply in Yamnaya/Steppe.

It's Hungary Bronze Age which seems to be correlated with Southern Europe.
Click to expand...
I would say so, because CW and Unetice is very different and contain a lot of Steppe/Yamnaya.

Wait a minute. Wouldn't that mean Hungary Bronze Age has no real "steppe"?
Click to expand...
I wish I knew for sure that if they say Steppe they know it is Steppe, and not just CHG admixture. Because if it is the latter then it could easily came from Anatolia to Balkans and not through the Steppe cultures.
 
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