The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

[Apsurdistan]

I don't see I1 anywhere, of course. It's basically non existent in ancient DNA before bronze age.

 

[Angela]

I'm not sure about the Greek part.

None of the IE Package originated on the steppe except the domesticated horse and possibly the spoked wheel chariot.

All the models seem to put CHG "like" or "southern" ancestry at 40-50%

The Olade et al admixture plot shows what looks to be about 35% for Yamnaya-Samara.

 

[Promenade]

I don't see I1 anywhere, of course. It's basically non existent in ancient DNA before bronze age.

And what's the explanation for all the R1b in the Balkan hunter gatherers?

 

[berun]

Now it's seems quite clear the R1b was really a Paleolithic clade as thought some years ago: it pops up in Italy (Villabruna), Romania (Iron Gates), Germany, Samara, Latvia... all LGM refuges were used (Italy, Balkans, Caucasus).

The papers provides 36 Y-DNA samples from Ukraine, only 8 are R1b, mainly from the outliers of Dereivka. It seems that the western steppe origin for L51 is fading...

When I was pointing out that IE languages were based on R1a pops is now more certain after finding a R1a in Kairyaka necropolis (1750-1625), as by such dates Greeks and Hitties where in their places.

 

[Milan.M]

The ydna and mtdna are in Table 1. These are just some I noticed. There are some big surprises.

Iberia H/G 10,000 BC: J209:19179335T->C; IJ126:21225770C->G

Harmonren Turkey 1 J1a
One J2 in LBK

Barcin 3 H2, 1J2a, 6 G2a2a1a2a, 1C1a2V20, 1 I2c, L596, 9 no result

Cardial, Croatia E1b1b1a1b1

Iron Gates Hunter- Gatherers: 3 R1b1a:A702:10038192G->A; R1b1a:CTS4244:15510064T->G; R1b1a:CTS8436:18026855G->A; R1b1a:FGC41:7900883C->A; R1b1a:L1345:21558298G->T; R1b1:CTS2229:14226692T->A; R1:CTS2565:14366723C->T; R:CTS8311:17930099C->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C;

One sample goes all the way back to about 10,000 BC. I wonder what Gioiello is doing. J

Lepinski Vir Neolithic 6222-5912 calBCE (7179±73* BP, OxA-25211)
: R1b1a:CTS4244:15510064T->G; R1b1:L822:7960019G->A; R:F652:23631629C->A; R:M799:23134896C->T

Greece Final Neolithic Kletios-G2a2a1a2

Greek Peloponnesus Neolithic- no results

Ukraine Mesolithic 8825-8561 BC- R1a

Ukraine “Neolithic”, which is much more WHG, has a lot of R1b1a

Globular Amphora is mostly I2, plus one each of:

BT

CT

Varna: CT-I think this is the gold encrusted one, but someone check, R1, G2a2b2b, G2a

Tryphilia: 3 G2a2...…and one E

Smyadova Bulgaria 4545-4400 B C- 1 Late Chalcolithic R1b1a:A702, R P280:2184

Vucedol: R1b1a1a2a2, G2a2a1a2a

Croatia: EM Bronze-J2b

Can this be right? Ust-Isham 45530-40610 calBCE : R1a1a1b

And look at this: Iran Neolithic:

R:M718:17334694G->T

R:CTS2426:14300457G->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C

Now, my brain is fried.

So basically we have R1b all over Balkans,pure gold.

 

[Angela]

I'm not sure I'm reading the PCA correctly, and of course it's not formal stats, but does Balkan Bronge Age land right on Northern and Central Italy? Is Vucedol a little south of that or parallel? Is Varna about where Southern Italy starts?



I used to speculate that Latin came from the Balkans, maybe with the Apennine culture, and Ligurian, which used to be much more widely spread, and Venetic languages from the North, before getting laughed down. I guess we'll see.

Ed. fix attachment

 

[Maciamo]

Ah, so this Bronze Age Anatolia/Armenia invasion, that increased so much Caucasian admixture in Balkans, happened before IE invasion from North Europe to Balkans. Possibly this Anatolia invasion is IE Mycenaean and some others.

Early Bronze Age Anatolia was an offshoot of the Kura-Araxes culture, which I believe was dominated by Y-haplogroups J2a1, then (Caucasian branches of) G2a, J1 and T1a. This study is the first confirmation of it since it shows J1 in EBA Anatolia, long before the Arabic expansion. I also think that the Kura-Araxes expansion was the source of the Minoan civilisation, not the Mycenaean.

 

[Angela]

Supervised Admixture:

View attachment 8673

Clusters constrained to 753 include individuals from Anatolia_Neolithic (grey), WHG (blue), EHG (red), 754 Yamnaya_Samara (orange), Ukraine_Mesolithic (purple), Motala_HG (green).

As I've been saying for awhile, it seems as if in some cases what moved into Southeastern Europe and perhaps beyond, Italy and maybe even Iberia if the Rui paper is correct, is a Ukrainian Mesolithic type ancestry as much as actual Steppe ancestry, at least in the Bronze Age. I've often said Tuscans look like eastern but not much northern shifted Sardinians.

 

[Apsurdistan]

And what's the explanation for all the R1b in the Balkan hunter gatherers?

I don't know why you're asking me, I don't get any of this. I'm hoping to see some I1s here and there but they got nothing... It's just been living with reindeer in Scandinavia for all eternity. Then it starts to spread out a little probably in the late iron age- early middle age.

 

[Maciamo]

Interesting to see J2b1a (L283) make its appearance in EMBA Croatia (c. 1600 BCE). I have linked that clade to the Indo-European migrations, but that is the first time is turns up in ancient samples. That individual's mtDNA is I1a1, a lineage that is undeniably of Steppe/Yamna origin.

Another point of interest is the Q1a2 sample from Mesolithic Latvia (6000-5000 BCE). This also confirms what I wrote in my last update on haplogroup Q a few months ago, namely that Q1a2 arrived in NE Europe during the late glacial period or the Mesolithic period.

The Cucuteni-Trypillian samples are all G2a (P303) apart from one low coverage sample belong to hg E (presumably E1b1b). I have postulated that E-V13 could have been assimilated by the PIE people right before or at the beginning of the IE invasions. One hypothesis is that E-V13 was among the Late Trypillian lineages that abandoned their towns and joined the nomadic lifestyle of their Yamna neighbours in the Steppe around 3500 BCE. Haplogroup E1b1b still hasn't been found in Neolithic European samples outside SE Europe, apart from a single one in Catalonia.

Neolithic Ukraine (Dereivka, Volniensky, Vovnigi) had a mix of R1a, R1b and I2a2 (including CTS10057, ancestral to the L699 found in Yamna). Maternal lineages were exclusively U2, U4 and U5, unlike Yamna which had a much greater diversity (including unique lineages like H2a1, H8, H15, I1, I3, I4, J1b1a and W).

 

[MarkoZ]

And what's the explanation for all the R1b in the Balkan hunter gatherers?

The more interesting question is why some people thought R1b wouldn't be in the Balkan HGs :wink:

It's the place where it naturally would have piled up after spreading westwards from Iran-Anatolia at a time when travel along the northern route would have been significantly less pleasant than today.

 

[Angela]

J2b was already in Sopot, so no surprise it's in Croatia, although I didn't check the subclades.

We have a I1 autosomally farmer sample from the Hungarian Neolithic.

 

[Maciamo]

J2b was already in Sopot, so no surprise it's in Croatia, although I didn't check the subclades.

No, Sopot was J2a. It wouldn't make any sense if J2b was in Neolithic Central Europe, as J2b came from the Iranian Neolithic and migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it is still common today.

 

[anthropico]

Iboussieres31-2, WHG France, 10090-9460 BCE, Y-DNA J?
Iboussieres25-1, WHG France, 10090-9460 BCE, Y-DNA R

Really?

 

[Angela]

An interesting section to me:

"We report new data from hunter-gatherers from France, Sicily and Croatia, as well as higher coverage data from three previously published hunter-gatherers from France and Germany. 18 The Sicilian and Croatian individuals dating to 12,000 and 6100 BCE cluster closely with western hunter-gatherers, including individuals from Loschbour24 (Luxembourg, 6100 BCE), Bichon20 (Switzerland, 11,700 BCE), and Villabruna18 (Italy 12,000 BCE). These results demonstrate that the “western hunter-gatherer” population24 was widely distributed from the Atlantic seaboard of Europe in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkan Peninsula in the Southeast, for at least six thousand years, strengthening the evidence that the western hunter- gatherers represent a population that expanded from a southeastern European refugium following the last Ice Age around 15,000 years ago–in the process displacing or admixing with the existing population of western Europe."

"A particularly important hunter-gatherer population that we newly report in this study is from the Iron Gates region that straddles the border of present-day Romania and Serbia. This region is close to the route taken by farmer migrants on their way from the Balkans to central Europe...they are – as expected given their geographic location and the hunter-gatherer ancestry cline – intermediate between WHG (87%) and EHG (13%). However, this qpAdm model does not fit well (p=0.0003, Supplementary table 3) and we note that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter- gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter- gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe."

"In contrast, the two individuals (I4665 and I4666, dated to 6205-5907 calBCE and 6222-5912 calBCE respectively) that we sampled from Iron Gates site of Lepenski Vir are genetically farmers rather than hunter-gatherers, despite having been buried in the local Mesolithic tradition. Strontium isotope data shows that many of the individuals buried after ~6100 BCE at Lepenski Vir–including one of the two that we sampled (I4665, burial 54E)–were not originally from the Danube Gorges. These observations, combined with one individual from Padina (I5232), dated to 6061-5841 calBCE that has both farmer and hunter-gatherer ancestry, demonstrates that the Iron Gates region was one where farmer and hunter-gatherer groups interacted both genetically and culturally, and provides a window into the first few generations of interactions between these disparate groups."

"The Ukrainian Neolithic population has significant differences in ancestry compared to the Ukrainian Mesolithic population–specifically that ANE ancestry decreases and WHG ancestry increases… Individuals associated with the Bronze Age Yamnaya Complex from Ukraine, like previously reported Yamnaya individuals from Samara7 and Kalmykia16 , have little evidence of WHG ancestry, but do have a third source of ancestry related to hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus 20 (CHG) and early Iranian farmers23,35 (Supplementary Data Table 3). Two Yamnaya individuals – one from Ozera in Ukraine and one from Bulgaria (I1917 and Bul4, both datedto ~3000 BCE) – in addition have evidence of early European farmer related admixture, which is the first evidence of such ancestry in Yamnaya individuals (Figure 1B,D, Supplementary Data Table 2). Similarly, one Copper Age individual (I4110) dated to ~3600-3400 BCE from Dereivka in Ukraine has both CHG and farmer ancestry (Figure 1D, Supplementary Data 229 Table 2). This is by far the earliest appearance of farmer ancestry this far East in Eurasia, 230 which was previously not known on the Steppe until the Srubnaya Complex after ~1800 BCE.

The Ukrainian Mesolithic individuals, although they fall autosomally between SHG and EHG, so towards the Eastern end of the cline, carry the following haplogroups:

I2a1

R1a

R1b1a2

 

[Angela]

The more interesting question is why some people thought R1b wouldn't be in the Balkan HGs :wink:

It's the place where it naturally would have piled up after spreading westwards from Iran-Anatolia at a time when travel along the northern route would have been significantly less pleasant than today.

The refugium from which WHG derives seems to be in the southeast, not Franco- Cantabria. Only the small Goyets related ancestry in them would seem to come from FC. So much also for the thousands of words dedicated to trying to prove R1b was from Siberia or was EHG. The abuse meted out over this was incredible.

Honestly, the more I look at Admixture, the less steppe I see in the Balkans. It's the exact opposite of northern Europe: it's really substantial in only one person, and half have very little, so I think that 30% figure is misleading. Goodness, there's not much even in the Iron Age, 400 BC. Sorry to the real aficionados, but the whole traditional steppe/kurgan hypothesis is a bit of a dud there, as it may be in Iberia if Rui is correct and there's no steppe in them, only EHG.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I3948 5600-5470 BCE Balkans_Neolithic E1b1b1a1b1(L618+)

@ Maciamo...
Yes, Sopot is M172. However, J2a is from the same general area as J2b.In general, the steppe doesn't seem to have had allthat much influence even in the Bronze Age.

 

[Promenade]

The more interesting question is why some people thought R1b wouldn't be in the Balkan HGs :wink:

It's the place where it naturally would have piled up after spreading westwards from Iran-Anatolia at a time when travel along the northern route would have been significantly less pleasant than today.

I just wanted to entertain a conversation since it goes against the beliefs of most here and elsewhere, that it spread from the Yamnaya. I understand that some people have strong opinions regarding where it spread from though.

So now the two main hypotheses are that it spread from Anatolia to the Balkans and then to the rest of Europe or that it represents lineages from the paleolithic rebounding sometime after the LGM?

 

[LeBrok]

I'm not sure about the Greek part.

None of the IE Package originated on the steppe except the domesticated horse and possibly the spoked wheel chariot.

All the models seem to put CHG "like" or "southern" ancestry at 40-50%

I mean, when package was finished/collected and started to spread with steppe population.
Are you saying that Yamnaya is 40-50% CHG? We know genetics of CHG, it is impossible. When they say Yamnaya was 50% BA Armenian like, it was because stepped moved into Armenia during Bronze age, and made locals more similar to steppe.

 

[Angela]

There was no "Paleolithic" rebound in the sense of Franco-Cantabrian refugia ancestry rebounding. That was largely replaced by WHG like ancestry from either the Balkans or ultimately Anatolia. WHG is different from Paleolithic Aurignacian ancestry.

A possibility is that R1b came from east into the Balkans, from there onto the steppe, and then L23 came back west.

 

[Trojet]

Interesting to see J2b1a (L283) make its appearance in EMBA Croatia (c. 1600 BCE). I have linked that clade to the Indo-European migrations, but that is the first time is turns up in ancient samples.

You mean J2b2a-L283, precisely the one that peaks among Albanians.