The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

[Alan]

I had heard that Villabruna looked more like a proto-EHG minus the ANE components than a WHG. I believe it was on here. I don't have a source or data.

How can Villabruna look like EHG minus the ANE, if the whole difference of WHG to EHG is the extend of ANE admixture
That is not possible.

EHG, SHG, WHG all seem to be the same with only their ANE admixture being the differenting point. And Balkan H&G seem to be something of their own too. Predominantly WHG (93%) with little ANE admixture (~7%).

 

[Alpenjager]

ID# i0700 ...........T1a1a - CTS4916 ............mtdna = T2e

and

ID# i1108............T1a1 - PF5658 ............mtdna = T2e


Both are found in Bulgaria ......

Criş culture is not boundared to modern Country boundaries. They belong to the Criş culture, Malak Preslaviets is in the Romanian-Bulgarian border, on the Danube banks.

They belong to mtDNA T2e but:
1-T1a settlements can integrate other mtDNA lineages as previously seen in Karsdorf (not necessarily originally linked to T1a)
2-T2e have not been found outside Europe yet.

Malak Preslavets ( Criş Culture )
40% T1a1a (Found in Central and Eastern Europe) Most Ancient found in Eastern Europe.
40% G2a2b2a (Found in Europe and Anatolia) Most Ancient found in Northwest Anatolia.
20% C1a2 (Found in Europe and Anatolia) Most Ancient found in Europe.

20% H+H5b (Found in Europe and around the Black sea)
20% U5a1c + U5a2 (Paleolithic European lineages)
20% T2e (not found outside Europe yet)
10% T2b (Found around the Black sea)
20% J2b1 (Found in Mesolithic Sardinia)
10% J1c (Found in West Asia)

 

[Angela]

there's T too? so pretty much everything except I1
this is bullshit

Cut out the profanity. This isn't the corner pub.

 

[epoch]

There was no "Paleolithic" rebound in the sense of Franco-Cantabrian refugia ancestry rebounding. That was largely replaced by WHG like ancestry from either the Balkans or ultimately Anatolia. WHG is different from Paleolithic Aurignacian ancestry.

A possibility is that R1b came from east into the Balkans, from there onto the steppe, and then L23 came back west.

I don't think you can tell that yet. Pure unadmixted UP WHG has now been found from Switzerland to Serbia, from Sicily to Villabruna, right? The Iron Gates have a tad EHG and something else, unknown. They also have the first k1 mtDNA. So let's call a perimeter there. El Miron has 2/3 Goyet admixture and 1/3 WHG. That is also a perimeter.

WHG can be modeled as half El_Miron + half Vestonice 16 + a tad ANE. That doesn't mean El_Miron or Vestonice 16 are necessarily its ancestors but I still think that LGM Italian samples may yield its ancestors.

EDIT: Come to think of it, those Peloponesse Neolithics have even less WHG than Anatolians. The Admixture graphs shown in the Supp Info shows it to have a common origin to the non-WHG part of Anatolians. The text mentions it shies away from WHG in comparison to Anatolian. While this is not proof, my feeling is that this points to Anatolians being on te receiving end of WHG admixture.

 

[Angela]

It is so in general that people arrive before they are historically attested. And the main linguistic point is, if Hittite came from the Steppes via Balkan route it needs to have arrived in Anatolia already by 4000 BC, due to several reasons.

One being Hittites very archaic- ness so the divergence from Proto Indo European must be very recent.

Second being that the divergence within the Anatolian languages being quite significant (Luwian, Lydian, Hittite) and therefore has to have happened around 5000 years. What that means is Anatolian Branch HAS to have arrived in Anatolia prior to 3000 BC, since it is to be expected that the Anatolian Branch diverged on the Anatolian Plateau because A: there are no other languages of the Anatolian Branch outside Anatolia (with the exception of very early Hittite sites in Kurdistan and Iran(among the Kassites and Subarians)

And B: it is extremely unlikely that all the Anatolian branches arrived in Anatolia one by one.

So yes going by science, the Anatolian branch has to had arrived there prior to 2000 BC, more around 3000-4000 BC.

That's my understanding of it as well. Ditto for the categorization of Villabruna. Also, has anyone checked whether the following is legit or a typo? It's in Table 1.

And look at this: Iran Neolithic:

R:M718:17334694G->T

R:CTS2426:14300457G->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C

 

[epoch]

The most interesting part is the fact that ANE related ancestry pops up all over Eastern Europe and West-Asia post LGM.

 

[MarkoZ]

I don't think you can tell that yet. Pure unadmixted UP WHG has now been found from Switzerland to Serbia, from Sicily to Villabruna, right? The Iron Gates have a tad EHG and something else, unknown. They also have the first k1 mtDNA. So let's call a perimeter there. El Miron has 2/3 Goyet admixture and 1/3 WHG. That is also a perimeter.

WHG can be modeled as half El_Miron + half Vestonice 16 + a tad ANE. That doesn't mean El_Miron or Vestonice 16 are necessarily its ancestors but I still think that LGM Italian samples may yield its ancestors.

EDIT: Come to think of it, those Peloponesse Neolithics have even less WHG than Anatolians. The Admixture graphs shown in the Supp Info shows it to have a common origin to the non-WHG part of Anatolians. The text mentions it shies away from WHG in comparison to Anatolian. While this is not proof, my feeling is that this points to Anatolians being on te receiving end of WHG admixture.

Here we go again

 

[bicicleur 2]

That's my understanding of it as well. Ditto for the categorization of Villabruna. Also, has anyone checked whether the following is legit or a typo? It's in Table 1.

And look at this: Iran Neolithic:

R:M718:17334694G->T

R:CTS2426:14300457G->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C

what is the dating?

only basal R, no subclades identified
my guess would be R2 or R1b-V88

 

[holderlin]

Cut out the profanity. This isn't the corner pub.

It is sort of BS though. What is up with the I1 in Germanic? I was hoping for some as well in this paper.

 

[LeBrok]

there's T too? so pretty much everything except I1
this is bullshit

It was found in Hungarian Neolithic. Control your crazy outbursts!

[FONT=&quot]The earliest sign of haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary ([/FONT]Szécsényi-Nagy et al. (2014)[FONT=&quot]). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early [/FONT]Linear Pottery (LBK) culture[FONT=&quot], which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion.[/FONT]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

 

[LeBrok]

Only one R1a as i can see from South-East Europe (Balkans) to be found in the Bronze age;
Merichleri, Kairyaka necropolis burial mound 1750-1625 calBCE (3400±30 BP, Beta-432796) Bulgaria Balkans_Bronze Age R1a1a1b2

Shortage of R1a in Balkans? I bet, most of it have spread late with Slavs.

 

[Milan.M]

Shortage of R1a in Balkans? I bet, most of it have spread late with Slavs.

It isn't that much of shortage considering the samples from bronze age we have and no iron age,this period to be look for it in my opinion,more are neolithic,there is also just one of J2b (bronze age) and E1b1b1 (neolithic) from Croatia i bet they too spread with Slavs later.There was two of "early Slavs" tested in Czech republic but no Y DNA.

 

[LeBrok]

I don't think you can tell that yet. Pure unadmixted UP WHG has now been found from Switzerland to Serbia, from Sicily to Villabruna, right? The Iron Gates have a tad EHG and something else, unknown. They also have the first k1 mtDNA. So let's call a perimeter there. El Miron has 2/3 Goyet admixture and 1/3 WHG. That is also a perimeter.

WHG can be modeled as half El_Miron + half Vestonice 16 + a tad ANE. That doesn't mean El_Miron or Vestonice 16 are necessarily its ancestors but I still think that LGM Italian samples may yield its ancestors.

EDIT: Come to think of it, those Peloponesse Neolithics have even less WHG than Anatolians. The Admixture graphs shown in the Supp Info shows it to have a common origin to the non-WHG part of Anatolians. The text mentions it shies away from WHG in comparison to Anatolian. While this is not proof, my feeling is that this points to Anatolians being on te receiving end of WHG admixture.

WHG admixtures are very "refined", they needed to develop in isolation for few thousand of years, and went through sharp bottlenecking. If they have developed in Anatolia we could expect some Caucasian or SW Asian in them. I'm betting for Italy now as WHG refugium.

 

[holderlin]

It is so in general that people arrive before they are historically attested. And the main linguistic point is, if Hittite came from the Steppes via Balkan route it needs to have arrived in Anatolia already by 4000 BC, due to several reasons.

One being Hittites very archaic- ness so the divergence from Proto Indo European must be very recent.

Second being that the divergence within the Anatolian languages being quite significant (Luwian, Lydian, Hittite) and therefore has to have happened around 5000 years. What that means is Anatolian Branch HAS to have arrived in Anatolia prior to 3000 BC, since it is to be expected that the Anatolian Branch diverged on the Anatolian Plateau because A: there are no other languages of the Anatolian Branch outside Anatolia (with the exception of very early Hittite sites in Kurdistan and Iran(among the Kassites and Subarians)

And B: it is extremely unlikely that all the Anatolian branches arrived in Anatolia one by one.

So yes going by science, the Anatolian branch has to had arrived there prior to 2000 BC, more around 3000-4000 BC.

I said historically. Meaning "as far as we know for sure". Of course they had to have been there before then, but I disagree with your time frames. Don't espouse science with your claims as if you're using pure logic, please. Luwain is really the only sub-group and it isn't as diverges from Hittite as you claim.

I agree that Anatolian/proto-Hittite, or whatever you want to call it must have diverged from PIE by 4000BC, but these would have been mobile people with horses and chariots. They could have moved into Anatolian suddenly, just as the Mycenaeans did in Greece. In fact they could have been displaced from the Balkans by migrating Greek speakers, which is what appears to be happening on the Balkan peninsula.

The Hittite people also appear to have originally been seated away from where this bronze age sample was taken, in the East around Hattusa, from which Luwic would likely have diverged from later. And it's only one sample. I'd like to see a few more younger samples. That's all.

It's possible that Anatolian came from the East, but I don't think it's more likely than the Balkans given all of the other evidence we have about IE dispersals.

 

[holderlin]

How can Villabruna look like EHG minus the ANE, if the whole difference of WHG to EHG is the extend of ANE admixture
That is not possible.

EHG, SHG, WHG all seem to be the same with only their ANE admixture being the differenting point. And Balkan H&G seem to be something of their own too. Predominantly WHG (93%) with little ANE admixture (~7%).

Whoa, slow down. I was saying that I "heard something like this". Someone else brought it up and I was corroborating the rumor.

 

[LeBrok]

It is sort of BS though. What is up with the I1 in Germanic? I was hoping for some as well in this paper.

Wherever it was hiding in h-gs, at one point was picked up by proto germanic farmers, and afterwards exploded with germanic population. In one of most successful tribes. Unless you think it landed in IA Europe with Martians?

 

[epoch]

WHG admixtures are very "refined", they needed to develop in isolation for few thousand of years, and went through sharp bottlenecking. If they have developed in Anatolia we could expect some Caucasian or SW Asian in them. I'm betting for Italy now as WHG refugium.

Exactly my point.

 

[epoch]

Here we go again

O we had our quibbles on this before and will not agree on this anytime soon I reckon. Although on my part it is not stubborness but seriously failing to see how it could have worked. But on one thing I think we may agree: This epic paper is splendid in every aspect. But it doesn't provide the game changer on account of the LGM or pre-LGM roots of WHG.

 

[MarkoZ]

Wherever it was hiding in h-gs, at one point was picked up by proto germanic farmers, and afterwards exploded with germanic population. In one of most successful tribes. Unless you think it landed in IA Europe with Martians?

I think the proportion of I1 relative to haplogroups associated with Germanic migrations (U106) in Finnish populations and particularly the Finnish I-L287 would indicate that I1 had a star-patterned expansion before the arrival of the Germanics. How this happened I don't know.

 

[Maciamo]

I think the proportion of I1 relative to haplogroups associated with Germanic migrations (U106) in Finnish populations and particularly the Finnish I-L287 would indicate that I1 had a star-patterned expansion before the arrival of the Germanics. How this happened I don't know.

I have written a long explanation about how and when I1 might have spread to Finland in my history of haplogroup I1.