The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

Are there any updates on when this one will get released?
 
I wonder if the founder effect of I2a farmers of globular amphores full of EEF, can be also explain with the steppe hypothesis where maybe J pastoralists have been absorb by local R1b HG.
 
Y-I2a2 seemingly was dominant if not lone among ALPc culture people of Hungary (6th-5Th Millenium - along some rare Y-G2a and other Y-I) and I2a2 was dominant also among Ukraina Neolithic people (in fact rather HG's poorly accultured); we could suppose Steppic tribes pushed Ukrainan people towards Poland but they had rather HG's mt-DNa, when GAC of Poland had rather "Neolithic" mt-DNA like ALPc; but GAC are about 2000 years later. Apparently some physically "proto-europeans" similar to the Steppic HG's entered into Hungary before the reported first I-E Steppes introgression there; they were absorbed later: could they have been dominantly early kurganized steppes "Neolithics" males who took Neolithic females there and survived, largely modified in a new mixed culture who extended close to Poland surroundings? or in fact the mix was already made since a long time (ALPc) with local Y-I2a2 present in Nth Balkans Mesolithic?
the Derivka Sredny Stog people were for the most Y-R1b1a with a few Y-I2a2 (joined to them?); could their clan pushed "Neolithics" of Ukraina towards West (for a part)? Very unclear to me to date.
What I feel is that the HG's and the Steppes partly nomadic herders had more male clannic rigidities than the sedentary agricultors and their successors and the Y-lineages among them were more exclusive. Only a feeling.
 
Angela said:
All I can say is Wow!
See:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf

This is the abstract.

"Farming was first introduced to southeastern Europe in the mid-7th millennium BCE - brought by migrants from Anatolia who settled in the region before spreading throughout Europe. However, the dynamics of the interaction between the first farmers and the indigenous hunter-gatherers remain poorly understood because of the near absence of ancient DNA from the region. We report new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 204 individuals-65 Paleolithic and Mesolithic, 93 Neolithic, and 46 Copper, Bronze and Iron Age-who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between about 12,000 and 500 BCE. We document that the hunter-gatherer populations of southeastern Europe, the Baltic, and the North Pontic Steppe were distinctive from those of western Europe, with a West-East cline of ancestry. We show that the people who brought farming to Europe were not part of a single population, as early farmers from southern Greece are not descended from the Neolithic population of northwestern Anatolia that was ancestral to all other European farmers. The ancestors of the first farmers of northern and western Europe passed through southeastern Europe with limited admixture with local hunter-gatherers, but we show that some groups that remained in the region mixed extensively with local hunter-gatherers, with relatively sex-balanced admixture compared to the male-biased hunter-gatherer admixture that we show prevailed later in the North and West. After the spread of farming, southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between East and West, with intermittent steppe ancestry, including in individuals from the Varna I cemetery and associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian archaeological complex, up to 2,000 years before the Steppe migration that replaced much of northern Europe's population.""
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Interesting


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So are they definitely positioned that baltic, balkanics and north pontics R1b HG are very likely parents ? ( without the evidence of r1b related haplogroup ). And so are R1a from karelia and dereivka related to each others ? What is the real genetic distance for all those groups ?


And what is the genetic ratio of both mesolithic baltics and balkanics, Baltic shows WHG related haplogroups like U5b and I2, but also R1b, is this R1b considererd EHG marker ? or a fusion of both and some others genetics incomes or archaisms ?

But most interesting i think, are those balkanics HG, what are their ratio of WHG - EHG admixtures ? Do they are some CHG or even Basal Eurasian markers ? And to what proportions... MY GOSH so many questions...
 
I just looked at sample I4331 J2b2a-L283 Veliki Vanik, Bronze Age Dalmatia, ~1600 BCE. I'm showing him as: Z628+ Z2507+ Y15058+ CTS9215+ and Z40053- Z38241- and the rest of downstream informative SNPs no calls. So looks like fully developed J-CTS3617 aka J-Y15058 at YFull, and likely negative for all downstreams: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/
 
Genetiker said:
I'm posting Y-SNP calls here:
Y-SNP calls from ancient Southeastern Europe
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R-V88 appears in many places..........is this marker the first of the R1b!? in europe
The T-M184 is the filthy rich coastal black sea bulgaria ................over 1000 gold pieces found in the grave ..........1000 years younger than the 2 x T1a in Malak bulgaria ( not very far away )
 
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The "mythological" genomic literature in early 21st century makes us ask many questions like yours. There are many branches of science with a period "baby in the cradle", but the ancient genomics is too long in this cradle. So, when you see this model of merging of hunter-gatherers and farmers, you need context. The context of Maluk Preslevets is an Early Neolithic village with intramural graves - cemetery. What "hunter-gatherers" means is unclear. This may mean that the population of Maluk Preslavets was documented with haplogroups which match the haplogroups of the hunter-gatherers. This may also mean that part of the population of Maluk Preslvets had hunter-gatherers ancestry, not that they were in Early Neolithic hunter-gatherers. In other words, they would be descendants of Lepenski Vir culture or something like it.
The general problem, however is, that geneticists who have been lately publishing ancient genomic data are completely lost in their own limitations, selective use of data for generalization, dependence on computer programs with quationable algorithms ... . Especially the repeated with "genetic data" outdated theory of M. Gimbutas. Pit Grave Culture neither had the philosophy nor the strategy to invade and change the world. These were pastoral households, who ran from the barbarous periphery of Europe (the Russian steppes) to have seen and to integrate with the advanced civilization (the European Golden Bronze Age). How is possible even for a second somebody to think that this culture can have any serious impact on Corded Ware Culture or Bell Beaker Culture? After the last "hit" of the "steppe ancestry" of British population, somebody with strong voice needs finally just to say: Stop! Think. The world is not full with idiots, but with thinking people.
 
holderlin said:
Alright, so V88 came from Europe? Does anyone contest this?
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I don't know how anyone could, nor do I know of anyone who continues to contest it. Things are more complicated than imagined. In my experience, they usually are.
 
holderlin said:
Alright, so V88 came from Europe? Does anyone contest this?
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They are the unsung heroes of 2018 that nobody cares about. They were everywhere and even the dispersal into sub Sahara africa happen in the last 5500 years. So many papers where they rock and nobody cares...
 
Is there any appreciable sign of WHG or WHG-like admixture in all or at leaST MOST the African lands that have a significantly higher then average presence of R1B-V88? If not, how come they left no autosomal impact at all despite their apparently "Kurgan-like" expansion - rapid Chalcolithic/Bronze Age expansion through pastoralism mainly - in much of North and North-Central Africa? Or maybe their WHG had already become very depleted and replaced through dozens of generations by a much more EEF profile?
 
Angela said:
I don't know how anyone could, nor do I know of anyone who continues to contest it. Things are more complicated than imagined. In my experience, they usually are.
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I just remember some strange theories about it, and I didn't see it definitively assigned to all those Ukraine Neolithic and Iron Gates samples until recently.

There is something special about the Steppe-Balkans interface from the Mesolithic to the Bronze Age.
 
Ygorcs said:
Is there any appreciable sign of WHG or WHG-like admixture in all or at leaST MOST the African lands that have a significantly higher then average presence of R1B-V88? If not, how come they left no autosomal impact at all
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Because it's been like 400 generations.

Ygorcs said:
Or maybe their WHG had already become very depleted and replaced through dozens of generations by a much more EEF profile?
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Yes, but more like SSA.
 
Ygorcs said:
Is there any appreciable sign of WHG or WHG-like admixture in all or at leaST MOST the African lands that have a significantly higher then average presence of R1B-V88? If not, how come they left no autosomal impact at all despite their apparently "Kurgan-like" expansion - rapid Chalcolithic/Bronze Age expansion through pastoralism mainly - in much of North and North-Central Africa? Or maybe their WHG had already become very depleted and replaced through dozens of generations by a much more EEF profile?
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This isn't an area of special interest to me, so I may not be up to date, but I know that in this paper from the end of 2016, they give this date for R1b-V88 in Chad: "Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700–7,300 years ago."

Marc Haber et al: [h=1]"Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations"[/h]http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(16)30448-7

It was discussed here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33130-EEF-gave-Africa-R1b-V88

I would think even a couple of hundred years spent in the Near East/Levant, and then time in Africa marrying only local women would get rid of any autosomal trace of WHG.
 
Oh OK I see. An updated version was published in Nature in the last few days. Forgive me I'm slow.

How bout that small bit of steppe in Peloponnese Neolithic?
 
There is a paper about the Tubus in Chad. I think that I have never posted about in this forum. This is of interest for T1a and R1b-V88 both found in Ancient Balkans (Mesolithic-Early Neolithic) and Tubu people. Remember that the oldest T1a found in the Balkans have close to 40% Balkan HG autosomal DNA (the highest of his settlement).

The Tubus "The Rock people" in Haber et al.
Interesting results from Tubus show the following YDNA composition:
West Eurasians
34% R1b-L754 (xP297) likely V88
31% T1a-M70
1% J1
Africans
33% E1b several subclades

Most interestingly the authors found this about Tubus: "We also find the Eurasian haplogroup T in Toubou and Ethiopians with Toubou having a high frequency (31%) of their studied males belonging to this haplogroup. Interestingly, the only instances of this haplogroup in examined ancient populations are in the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) population which we found to be the most significant reference for the Eurasian ancestry in Toubou and the Ethiopians."

And also that the closest autosomal modern non-African reference population to the Tubus are the Sardinians!
This mean that Tubus retain, at least, 26-30% of autosomal LBK-like DNA from their Early Balkan Neolithic ancestors.
Would be very interesting to see How will works when adding as reference Mesolithic Balkan populations and Early Neolithic Preslavets found in the last Mathiesen et al paper.

These too lineages found in Mesolithic Balkan HG and Early Balkan Neolithic with the highest Balkan HG have not been found together only among Tubu population from (Borku, Ennedi and Tibesti) northwest Chad, but also are found together in Tuaregs from Burkina Faso and Fulbe from Northern Cameroon. However when looking into East Africa, R1b is virtually stuck in Sudan while T1a1a is found until "the gates" of South Africa.
According to a Tubu individual "range from H and HV to L2 and L3e on the maternal side" So, again T1a found together with descendants of R0 mtDNA.

 Tubu tribesman in Sigadine village, northern Niger.jpg
 
Alpenjager said:
There is a paper about the Tubus in Chad. I think that I have never posted about in this forum. This is of interest for T1a and R1b-V88 both found in Ancient Balkans (Mesolithic-Early Neolithic) and Tubu people. Remember that the oldest T1a found in the Balkans have close to 40% Balkan HG autosomal DNA (the highest of his settlement).

The Tubus "The Rock people" in Haber et al.
Interesting results from Tubus show the following YDNA composition:
West Eurasians
34% R1b-L754 (xP297) likely V88
31% T1a-M70
1% J1
Africans
33% E1b several subclades

Most interestingly the authors found this about Tubus: "We also find the Eurasian haplogroup T in Toubou and Ethiopians with Toubou having a high frequency (31%) of their studied males belonging to this haplogroup. Interestingly, the only instances of this haplogroup in examined ancient populations are in the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) population which we found to be the most significant reference for the Eurasian ancestry in Toubou and the Ethiopians."

And also that the closest autosomal modern non-African reference population to the Tubus are the Sardinians!
This mean that Tubus retain, at least, 26-30% of autosomal LBK-like DNA from their Early Balkan Neolithic ancestors.
Would be very interesting to see How will works when adding as reference Mesolithic Balkan populations and Early Neolithic Preslavets found in the last Mathiesen et al paper.

These too lineages found in Mesolithic Balkan HG and Early Balkan Neolithic with the highest Balkan HG have not been found together only among Tubu population from (Borku, Ennedi and Tibesti) northwest Chad, but also are found together in Tuaregs from Burkina Faso and Fulbe from Northern Cameroon. However when looking into East Africa, R1b is virtually stuck in Sudan while T1a1a is found until "the gates" of South Africa.
According to a Tubu individual "range from H and HV to L2 and L3e on the maternal side" So, again T1a found together with descendants of R0 mtDNA.

View attachment 9800
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Or from their mostly Near Eastern ancestors. There are numerous papers showing that the inmixing West Eurasian ancestry into Africa was "Sardinian" like. It all means the same thing, I think, which is people who were mostly EEF autosomally.
 
The source of Eurasian ancestry in Toubou and Ethiopians is likely separate since the Eurasian ancestry in Luxmanada is specifically described as lacking ancestry from Farmers from Anatolia (So EEF/Sardinian like groups).

Is there any evidence of Natufian like ancestry in LBK? The ultimate source of haplogroup T could be somewhere near the Levant.
 
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