The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

It seems Eurogenes blog found a survey about 2 women from N-W Iberia and 6 (all men?) of Romania, all Mesolithic except one in Eneolithic among the "Romanians" -
 
That could be great, as I can see BA Hungarian influence in Iberian genetics of late BA. To bad I have only one sample to play with, and not the best quality either.

Here under an abstract very "light" (I cannot have the full paper) but it shows the links supposed by some ones between Polada and East Catalunya and it appears that some phenotypes in La Polada shewed also some 'danubian' physical heritage - all these cultures were partly local but had cultural/material inputs from Central Europe -

RESUMEN

Un molde lítico para puñales fue localizado en un contexto funerario fechado mediante C14 en c. 1850 cal ANE en el asentamiento de la Edad del Bronce de Camp Cinzano (Vilafranca del Penedès, Alt Penedès, Barcelo-na). Se estudian la tipología y materia prima del molde y las características del artefacto metálico moldeado en el, relacionándolas con la metalurgia del II milenio del nordeste de la Península Ibérica. Se exponen los escasos paralelos de moldes para puñales existentes en la Penín-sula Ibérica y en el Mediterráneo Occidental, así como las posibles razones de su ausencia en el registro arqueo-lógico. Los datos sugieren dos lugares de origen para el molde estudiado, el Levante ibérico y el norte de Italia (grupos de Polada). Esta última zona mantiene mayores relaciones e interacciones en el ámbito metalúrgico con el nordeste de la Península Ibérica.
ABSTRACT
The Bronze Age settlement of Camp Cinzano (Vila- franca del Penedès, Alt Penedès, Barcelona province) yielded a riveted dagger stone mould in a funerary con-
text C14 dated to c. 1850 cal BC. We examine the char
-acteristics of the mould (typology and raw material) and the metal artifact found at the site and relate them to the metallurgy of the 2
nd
Millennium BC in the Northeastern
Iberian Peninsula. We present the few comparable dag
- ger moulds existing in the Iberian Peninsula and the
Western Mediterranean and discuss the possible reasons
for their rarity in the archaeological record. The data indicate two possible places of origin for the mould studied: the East coast of the Iberian Peninsula and Northern Italy (the Polada group). The latter is an area which exhibits greater interaction and relationships with the Northeastern Iberian Peninsula in the metallurgic sphere.
Palabras clave
: Molde de fundición; Arqueometalurgia; Difusión tecnológica; Crisol con perforación para el en-mangue; Crisol con pie macizo; Edad del Bronce; Pre-historia Reciente; Mediterráneo Occidental.
Key words
: Casting mould; Archaeometallurgy; Techno-logical diffusion; Socketed crucible; Pedestal base cru-
cible; Bronze Age; Late Prehistory; Western Mediterra
-nean.

1. CAMP CINZANO. ESTRUCTURAS ARQUEOLÓGICAS, MATERIALES Y CRONOLOGÍA1.1. El asentamiento
 
It seems Eurogenes blog found a survey about 2 women from N-W Iberia and 6 (all men?) of Romania, all Mesolithic except one in Eneolithic among the "Romanians" -
Maciamo posted a link to it and summarized it in a much clearer way. Unfortunately, I'm away from home and on a tablet, and I can't seem to post any links to anything.
 
@ LeBrok, Bicicleur,

We were talking about the composition of Yamnaya:


"Iosif Lazaridis (Broad) said...
It's great to see the data already being analyzed and I hope it will be useful in your analyses!

I just wanted to leave a brief comment that the model of Steppe_EMBA as a mixture of EHG+CHG is rejected (Table S7.11), while that of EHG+Iran_ChL is not. Note that in Table S7.11 we are modeling Steppe_EMBA and the references with respect to 13 outgroup populations (the set O9ALNW), not all of which are included in the TreeMix graph.

It is possible for some models to succeed with a particular set of outgroups (both EHG+CHG and EHG+Iran_ChL are feasible with only the O9 set of outgroups; Table S7.10), but for some of them to be rejected when additional outgroups are introduced (Table S7.11). As we mention further down, that doesn't mean there is no CHG-related ancestry in Steppe_EMBA as we can model it as a 3-way mixture involving CHG as one of the sources. What it does mean, however, is that CHG+EHG cannot be the only sources, as this model is rejected (Table S7.11). A further test of our overall model is that when we withhold Iran_ChL as a source, and infer mixture proportions by intersecting the EHG->Steppe_EMBA and Levant_N+Levant_BA clines (p. 134), we get fairly reasonable agreement (mixture proportions).

We try to be cautious in our interpretation of the admixture models, because of three factors: (i) we don't know the geographical extent of populations like "CHG" or "Iran_ChL" so admixture from Iran_ChL does not imply admixture from geographical Iran or CHG from the geographical Caucasus, (ii) we do not have samples from many places and it's very likely that slightly different mixtures than the sampled populations existed elsewhere, (iii) it is possible that the actual history of admixture may be more complex than the simplest parsimonious models identified by the analysis.

Overall, our admixture analysis rejects several possible models (such as EHG+CHG) and thus puts constraints on what may have happened, and also proposes some models that are more resilient to rejection (such as EHG+Iran_ChL+CHG). But, by no means should these be regarded as the final word or unique solutions, but rather as one possible way that the data can be modeled."

I don't think they've found the specific population (s), or they hadn't at that time.

In the subject paper Mathiesen uses CHG + Iran Neolithic as the formulation for the group that moved into Anatolia and then into the Balkans in the Chalcolithic and then even more so in the Bronze Age. Now that may be the population only for this migration westward. The Reich Lab formulation for the group that mixed with the EHG to create Yamnaya may still be where Lazaridis left it, may be closer to this Mathiesen formulation, or may have changed based on samples they've discovered but not released. I just don't know.

Ed. Just X out the last paragraph. Mathiesen is saying the combination that went into the Balkans is the same as what went onto the steppe.

From the paper:

"In eastern Europe we document the appearance of CHG/Iranian Neolithic ancestry north of the Black Sea, and its eventual extension as far north as the Baltic. In some ways, this expansion parallels the expansion of Anatolian farmer ancestry into western Europe although it is less dramatic, and several thousand years later. These expansions set up the two, largely separate, populations in western and eastern Europe that would come together in the Final Neolithic and Early Bronze Age to form the ancestry of present-day Europe."

I would think Lazaridis would agree, but we'll have to wait for his new paper. Maybe they've found a new and slightly different Iranian farmer population.

Broushaki et al mentioned:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.full

However, our analyses suggest that Neolithic Iranians were unlikely to be the main source of Near Eastern ancestry in the Steppe population (table S20), and that this ancestry in pre-Yamnaya populations originated primarily in the west of SW-Asia.

Lazaridis et al modeled Anatolian as 30% Levant_N, 30% Levant and 40% WHG. It modelen Iran_CH als Iran_N + Levant_N.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

So if we find that Iranian neolithic did not leave ancestry to Yamnaya but Iranian neolithic + Levant neolithic did we are left with two options:

1) The ultimate PIE homeland is the Levant
2) The Iran_Ch admixture in Steppe in Lazaridis is a proxy for something else.

No ad hominem, call for authority and smear campaign is going to change this simple argument.
 
Why a mix of "Levant" and "Iran" neol in Iran CHalco would be born by force in Levant ONLY? it 's almost sure the osmosis took place on the two directions, or maybe rather from Iran places to Levant places (some Y-J's ancient colonisations southwards, but I lack knowledge about the first apparitions of Y-J in far South).
 
Why a mix of "Levant" and "Iran" neol in Iran CHalco would be born by force in Levant ONLY? it 's almost sure the osmosis took place on the two directions, or maybe rather from Iran places to Levant places (some Y-J's ancient colonisations southwards, but I lack knowledge about the first apparitions of Y-J in far South).

That is due to the way Lazaridis et al created their model, using what they call the "Four": Levant_N, Iran_N, WHG, EHG. Quite extensively explained in the Supplementary Info, chapter 7.
 
Last edited:
E1b1b1a1b1:CTS3287:14801129A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5291:16189080T->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5527:16345952A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS7273:17396160C->T;
E1b1b1a1b1:L618:15339697T->C;

So this is a fragment from the Croatian cave. Apparently I am not yet capable of interpreting the data by myself.

I suppose the last line means that it is positive for the L618 mutation. (Or does it mean the opposite?)

-So how can one check if it is E V13? (is it?)
-The CTS5856 I can't find downstream. Does it mean that this is a new variety of V13 or it is L618 V13*?

Please give me a hand to understand.
 
Broushaki et al mentioned:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.full



Lazaridis et al modeled Anatolian as 30% Levant_N, 30% Levant and 40% WHG. It modelen Iran_CH als Iran_N + Levant_N.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

So if we find that Iranian neolithic did not leave ancestry to Yamnaya but Iranian neolithic + Levant neolithic did we are left with two options:

1) The ultimate PIE homeland is the Levant
2) The Iran_Ch admixture in Steppe in Lazaridis is a proxy for something else.

No ad hominem, call for authority and smear campaign is going to change this simple argument.

Please point out where I smeared someone. Also, you are citing Broushaki et al are you not? Somehow, that isn't an appeal to authority?

I have never treated you with anything other than respect and collegiality. You have some nerve talking about ad hominen attacks.

Stop by again when your logic button is turned on and you can conduct yourself with a modicum of manners.

You might want to work on your reading comprehension too.

"We try to be cautious in our interpretation of the admixture models, because of three factors: (i) we don't know the geographical extent of populations like "CHG" or "Iran_ChL" so admixture from Iran_ChL does not imply admixture from geographical Iran or CHG from the geographical Caucasus, (ii) we do not have samples from many places and it's very likely that slightly different mixtures than the sampled populations existed elsewhere, (iii) it is possible that the actual history of admixture may be more complex than the simplest parsimonious models identified by the analysis.

Overall, our admixture analysis rejects several possible models (such as EHG+CHG) and thus puts constraints on what may have happened, and also proposes some models that are more resilient to rejection (such as EHG+Iran_ChL+CHG). But, by no means should these be regarded as the final word or unique solutions, but rather as one possible way that the data can be modeled." "
 
Please point out where I smeared someone. Also, you are citing Broushaki et al are you not? Somehow, that isn't an appeal to authority?

I have never treated you with anything other than respect and collegiality. You have some nerve talking about ad hominen attacks.

You have and I will return the honour. It is Davidski and the results he presents that is being considered an unreliable source - Words like "nonsense" are used - when he actually is a reliable source. Or the crowd at Anthrogenica, for that matter [1].

Stop by again when your logic button is turned on and you can conduct yourself with a modicum of manners.

You might want to work on your reading comprehension too.

"We try to be cautious in our interpretation of the admixture models, because of three factors: (i) we don't know the geographical extent of populations like "CHG" or "Iran_ChL" so admixture from Iran_ChL does not imply admixture from geographical Iran or CHG from the geographical Caucasus, (ii) we do not have samples from many places and it's very likely that slightly different mixtures than the sampled populations existed elsewhere, (iii) it is possible that the actual history of admixture may be more complex than the simplest parsimonious models identified by the analysis.

Overall, our admixture analysis rejects several possible models (such as EHG+CHG) and thus puts constraints on what may have happened, and also proposes some models that are more resilient to rejection (such as EHG+Iran_ChL+CHG). But, by no means should these be regarded as the final word or unique solutions, but rather as one possible way that the data can be modeled." "

I am quite sure that Lazaridis is quite content with his result because he doesn't present an archaeological case but a model for admixture. The chapter 7 of the Supp Info extensively explains how and why. They model the world with four sources and make a very good case why they do. It probably is not proper ancestry but that is not what they want to prove. They simply want to clarify where samples are in those four dimensions.

But since Anatolian is not one of their dimensions this model can clearly mask a European farmer influx. Lazaridis won't comment on that because his model isn't meant to figure that out.

[1] The Eastern-European farmers David was talking about were the Baltic neolithics which indeed don't have any Basal. A few responses furthermore it becomes clear.
 
You have and I will return the honour. It is Davidski and the results he presents that is being considered an unreliable source - Words like "nonsense" are used - when he actually is a reliable source. Or the crowd at Anthrogenica, for that matter [1].



I am quite sure that Lazaridis is quite content with his result because he doesn't present an archaeological case but a model for admixture. The chapter 7 of the Supp Info extensively explains how and why. They model the world with four sources and make a very good case why they do. It probably is not proper ancestry but that is not what they want to prove. They simply want to clarify where samples are in those four dimensions.

But since Anatolian is not one of their dimensions this model can clearly mask a European farmer influx. Lazaridis won't comment on that because his model isn't meant to figure that out.

[1] The Eastern-European farmers David was talking about were the Baltic neolithics which indeed don't have any Basal. A few responses furthermore it becomes clear.

You're going to be sorry you brought this up publicly, Epoch. It's called "opening the door". I hope you're a law abiding type, because unless the attorneys in your part of the world are all incompetent, you'd be destroyed on the witness stand.

Mr. Eurogenes has smeared himself over and over again. I've been in this hobby for ten years, which you obviously have not. He was a notorious poster on Stormfront and forumbiodiversity among others. Some helpful crashes and some massive scrubbing means that most of his posts are gone. He does the same on Eurogenes in case you haven't noticed. Unfortunately for him, I and quite a few others took dozens of screenshots. He routinely posted the most vile, anti-Semitic, anti-Near Eastern, anti-southern European racist/Nordicist rants imaginable. There were other matters I'm not at liberty to discuss because I don't possess the screen shot myself, but the aggrieved site was notified about the discussed activity.

Now, while that doesn't mean that his entire "work" product is incorrect, it does mean that he's an "impeached" witness, which means, for the un-initiated, that his work has to be carefully analyzed to make sure that he isn't cherry-picking or distorting data to support his agenda. Of course, he makes that difficult to do because he used to rarely publish his methodology so other people could try to replicate the results. If you knew that a paper on climate change was authored by a group paid by an oil company, you wouldn't give the paper extra scrutiny because of that very fact? Give me a break.

In my opinion, an opinion to which I am entitled btw, all he ever does is interpret the data in a way to support his own agenda. Every time a paper comes out he spews out data all showing how he's right and the academics are wrong, until the next paper shows he isn't right, and then the rigmarole starts all over again. Meanwhile, you aficionados just waste hours and days following the false trail. I God damn guarantee you that when the genomes are released, he'll find some way to make the CHG in the Varna female disappear, and somehow try to prove the dates on the steppe are wrong too. Can't you see how predictable he is? I said here a couple of years ago that his wrong predictions could fill the phone directory of a small city. You won't find the proof though, because not only posts but whole threads have been scrubbed. I haven't changed my mind since.

And yes, I think a lot of what he writes is nonsense, and puerile, vacuous, uninformed nonsense at that. Some Sarmatians in the service of Rome are responsible for a 0-7% autosomal change in "Yamnaya" in the Levant? There were blonde cowboys of the steppe in early Yamnaya? They rode into the fastness of the Caucasus to steal women? Are you serious? This is the Conan the Barbarian comic book version of the Pontic steppe origin of IE. I could fill the self-same directory with more nonsense of this sort.

I have a perfect right to this opinion as well. If it hurts your feelings that I believe this about your hero, I'm sorry, but it is what it is. I have a right to express it. Unless, of course, you want to join him in threatening me not to "make waves", or I'll "be sorry", as he did on this very Board? That's the kind of thing a thug does. Skinhead thugs do it routinely. If he's upset, it's too damn bad. If he ever does that again, if he ever bothers me again, I'll send the whole damn trove of screen shots to the Reich Lab and every other major Lab in the world, and maybe some task forces on hate groups. Maybe I should have done it already. I'm the wrong person to threaten.

The academics who occasionally post on his site should know the history and reputation of the person who created it and perhaps think twice about it.

You're fond of options, it seems. Well, I have some for you.

1. You're new and naive.
2. You're willfully blind
3. You share his orientation.

I've always liked you, so I'll opt for number one.

Now, you already made me half an hour late for my barbecue, and I'm getting yelled at. The discussion is closed so far as I'm concerned. Believe what you wish. You're entitled to your opinion, even if I think it's wrong. You're not entitled to tell me I can't express my own.

@Fire-Haired,
Spare us all and just respond with a ditto after Epoch's post, ok?
 
You're going to be sorry you brought this up publicly, Epoch. It's called "opening the door". I hope you're a law abiding type, because unless the attorneys in your part of the world are all incompetent, you'd be destroyed on the witness stand.

I am all but the law abiding type. But that is seriously offtopic.

Mr. Eurogenes has smeared himself over and over again. I've been in this hobby for ten years, which you obviously have not. He was a notorious poster on Stormfront and forumbiodiversity among others. Some helpful crashes and some massive scrubbing means that most of his posts are gone. He does the same on Eurogenes in case you haven't noticed. Unfortunately for him, I and quite a few others took dozens of screenshots. He routinely posted the most vile, anti-Semitic, anti-Near Eastern, anti-southern European racist/Nordicist rants imaginable. There were other matters I'm not at liberty to discuss because I don't possess the screen shot myself, but the aggrieved site was notified about the discussed activity.

Wayback machine?

Now, while that doesn't mean that his entire "work" product is incorrect, it does mean that he's an "impeached" witness, which means, for the un-initiated, that his work has to be carefully analyzed to make sure that he isn't cherry-picking or distorting data to support his agenda.

How can you cherrypick D-stats?

Of course, he makes that difficult to do because he used to rarely publish his methodology so other people could try to replicate the results. If you knew that a paper on climate change was authored by a group paid by an oil company, you wouldn't give the paper extra scrutiny because of that very fact? Give me a break.

In my opinion, an opinion to which I am entitled btw, all he ever does is interpret the data in a way to support his own agenda. Every time a paper comes out he spews out data all showing how he's right and the academics are wrong, until the next paper shows he isn't right, and then the rigmarole starts all over again. Meanwhile, you aficionados just waste hours and days following the false trail. I God damn guarantee you that when the genomes are released, he'll find some way to make the CHG in the Varna female disappear, and somehow try to prove the dates on the steppe are wrong too. Can't you see how predictable he is? I said here a couple of years ago that his wrong predictions could fill the phone directory of a small city. I haven't changed my mind.

Well, show the predictions and where they went wrong.

And yes, I think a lot of what he writes is nonsense, and puerile, vacuous, uninformed nonsense at that. Some Sarmatians in the service of Rome are responsible for a 0-7% autosomal change in "Yamnaya" in the Levant? There were blonde cowboys of the steppe in early Yamnaya? They rode into the fastness of the Caucasus to steal women? Are you serious? This is the Conan the Barbarian comic book version of the Pontic steppe origin of IE. I could fill the self-same directory with more nonsense of this sort.

I have a perfect right to this opinion as well.

You have. But unless you come up with the Stormfront stuff I call it smear. And come to think of it, even if you can you'd still have to refute the proposed idea with data, not with the posters history.

If it hurts your feelings that I believe this about your hero, I'm sorry, but it is what it is.

The day has yet to break where my feelings are hurt because of online stuff. I keep online life and personal life well separated. Only in the latter my feelings may possibly get hurt. Even then it happens sporadically. Furthermore, I have no heroes.

I have a right to express it.

You do.

Unless, of course, you want to join him in threatening me not to "make waves", or I'll "be sorry", as he did on this very Board? That's the kind of thing a thug does. Skinhead thugs do it routinely. If he's upset, it's too damn bad. If he ever does that again, if he ever bothers me again, I'll send the whole damn trove of screen shots to the Reich Lab and every other major Lab in the world, and maybe some task forces on hate groups. Maybe I should have done it already. I'm the wrong person to threaten.

I have no idea what you're on about.

The academics who occasionally post on his site should know the history and reputation of the person who created it and perhaps think twice about it.

You're fond of options, it seems. Well, I have some for you.

1. You're new and naive.
2. You're willfully blind
3. You share his orientation.

I've always liked you, so I'll opt for number one.

Now, you already made me half an hour late for my barbecue, and I'm getting yelled at. The discussion is closed so far as I'm concerned. Believe what you wish. You're entitled to your opinion, even if I think it's wrong. You're not entitled to tell me I can't express my own.

Maybe you're right and he's a hideous person. I don't know. But this is exactly what I was talking about. However, let us put David aside: Did you notice I made my case without his input, but with the presented data?

Should you respond within minutes: Go to your BBQ. It is more important.
 
Broushaki et al mentioned:
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.full



Lazaridis et al modeled Anatolian as 30% Levant_N, 30% Levant and 40% WHG. It modelen Iran_CH als Iran_N + Levant_N.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

So if we find that Iranian neolithic did not leave ancestry to Yamnaya but Iranian neolithic + Levant neolithic did we are left with two options:

1) The ultimate PIE homeland is the Levant
2) The Iran_Ch admixture in Steppe in Lazaridis is a proxy for something else.

No ad hominem, call for authority and smear campaign is going to change this simple argument.

I believe that these are distinct possibilities but I have the faint suspicion that 1) isn't the scenario you actually favor. So what do you think this particular admixture might mask? A migration from the Danube into the steppe?
 
I believe that these are distinct possibilities but I have the faint suspicion that 1) isn't the scenario you actually favor. So what do you think this particular admixture might mask?

First, we have had our quarrels before and you did not prove to be very reliable there. Now, that may have been a flaw. We all make them. But your faint suspicions are exactly that: Yours.

It could mask, exactly as David said, incoming farmer admixture. CT for instance.

EDIT: O, and Marko, I never got you to state a theory on what exactly admixted into WHG for its M.E. affinity. But your hinting at Iran is most certainly wrong. D-stats prove that.

How Fu et al show affinity:

Iraqi_Jew.

Fu et al said:
Mbuti Iraqi_Jew K14 Villabruna 0.0038 7.8 1125277
Mbuti Iraqi_Jew K14 Bichon 0.0037 7.9 1669947

More D-stats with old samples: Levant

Mbuti Levant_Neolithic Kostenki14 Villabruna 0.0464 8.951 710555
Mbuti Levant_Neolithic Kostenki14 Bichon 0.0310 5.932 806519

Now with Iran. Older samples show less affinity:

Mbuti Iran_Neolithic Kostenki14 Villabruna 0.0137 2.493 716391
Mbuti Iran_Neolithic Kostenki14 Bichon 0.0156 2.841 823008
Mbuti Iran_Neolithic Kostenki14 Loschbour 0.0113 2.056 815524

Mbuti Iran_ChL Kostenki14 Villabruna 0.0271 6.144 807309
Mbuti Iran_ChL Kostenki14 Bichon 0.0238 5.342 965639
Mbuti Iran_ChL Kostenki14 Loschbour 0.0234 5.421 957873
 
First, we have had our quarrels before and you did not prove to be very reliable there. Now, that may have been a flaw. We all make them.

Since you're getting into quarrels again, this time with another member who is known to interpret data soberly and objectively, did it occur to you that maybe the fault is on your part?

I think I showed exactly why your ideas were outlandish. So I'm still waiting for your refutation of Fu et al., whose data you never addressed. Instead you you constantly went off tangent and resorted to bickering when actual data was presented.

It could mask, exactly as David said, incoming farmer admixture. CT for instance.

Perhaps it could, but since I share Angela's distrust of this person due to previous experiences I'll wait for confirmation from a peer-reviewed publication. If you don't understand why people don't consider blogs and forum posts reliable sources, especially if they are known to put a very predictable spin on the data, I'm not sure what to tell you. It's quite ridiculous to expect others to try to disentangle often undisclosed methodologies presented by amateurs when they don't offer much beyond what's already in the papers.
 
First, we have had our quarrels before and you did not prove to be very reliable there. Now, that may have been a flaw. We all make them. But your faint suspicions are exactly that: Yours.

It could mask, exactly as David said, incoming farmer admixture. CT for instance.

EDIT: O, and Marko, I never got you to state a theory on what exactly admixted into WHG for its M.E. affinity. But your hinting at Iran is most certainly wrong. D-stats prove that.

How Fu et al show affinity:

Iraqi_Jew.



More D-stats with old samples: Levant



Now with Iran. Older samples show less affinity:

I'm not hinting at anything. The authors mention Kotias-Satsurbalia sans BE as a source, which is exactly what I told you. Why do you think they see Near Eastern affinity in Villabruna? It would be really helpful if you at least tried to understand their point.
 
Since you're getting into quarrels again, this time with another member who is known to interpret data soberly and objectively, did it occur to you that maybe the fault is on your part?

I think I showed exactly why your ideas were outlandish. So I'm still waiting for your refutation of Fu et al., whose data you never addressed.

The D-stats. Which, mind you, do not refute Fu et al. They refute your interpretation of it.

Instead you you constantly went off tangent and resorted to bickering when actual data was presented.

There is a link to a post of me that is an answer to you. You confidently explain to me why Fu et al did not include Bichon in the Villabruna group. Except the paper did.

Perhaps it could, but since I share Angela's distrust of this person due to previous experiences I'll wait for confirmation from a peer-reviewed publication. If you don't understand why people don't consider blogs and forum posts reliable sources, especially if they are known to put a very predictable spin on the data, I'm not sure what to tell you. It's quite ridiculous to expect others to try to disentangle often undisclosed methodologies presented by amateurs when they don't offer much beyond what's already in the papers.

Ad hominem fallacy.
 
I'm not hinting at anything. The authors mention Kotias-Satsurbalia sans BE as a source, which is exactly what I told you. Why do you think they see Near Eastern affinity in Villabruna? It would be really helpful if you at least tried to understand their point.

D-stats I posted. Read them.
 
The D-stats. Which, mind you, do not refute Fu et al. They refute your interpretation of it.

I have no interpretation.


There is a link to a post of me that is an answer to you. You confidently explain to me why Fu et al did not include Bichon in the Villabruna group. Except the paper did.

I confounded Miron and Bichon after a long and pointless exchange following a minor point about skeletal affinities. Big deal. I hereby apologize.

Ad hominem fallacy.

Explaining why a non-peer-reviewed source is unreliable isn't an ad hominem fallacy. Don't be ridiculous.
 
I have no interpretation.

OK. What is it then? You have shares in Iran?


I confounded Miron and Bichon after a long and pointless exchange following a minor point about skeletal affinities. Big deal. I hereby apologize.



Explaining why a non-peer-reviewed source is unreliable isn't an ad hominem fallacy. Don't be ridiculous.

But you don'y explain, but CLAIM it is unreliable. You don't explain a thing, actually

EDIT: D-stats I posted. Read them. Respond to that
 

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