The kurgan was empty

berun said:
It's necessary to take into account the Sea Peoples to count about a Caucasian plus. Denyen, Peleset (Philistines), Shekelesh (Sikules), Sherden (Sardinian), Teresh (Tursa / Etruscan), Tjekker, Weshesh, Lukka (Lycians), Eqwesh (Achaeans), which seem to have a nucleus in the Aegean.
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I guess I didn't explain myself clearly. Whatever effect these peoples might have had on coastal Sardinians or Italians has nothing to do with the sample from the mountainous, remote region of Sardinia chosen by Cavalli Sforza, who obviously knew what he was doing. There's also the fact that many scholars believe the Sardinians were actually part of the Sea Peoples. Plus, that would in no way explain the 22% Caucasus in 3300 BC Oetzi, which is more than the relic Sardinian group has.

Sorry, that explanation won't fly.
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
Sardinians and Basques are not as similar as some people think

Sardinians
S. Indian 0
Baloch 0
Caucasian 20
NE Euro 12
SE Asian 0
Siberian 0
NE Asian 0
Papuan 0
American 0
Beringian 0
Mediterranean 60
SW Asian 7
San 0
E African 0
Pygmy 0
W African 0

Basques
S. Indian 0
Baloch 8
Caucasian 1
NE Euro 33
SE Asian 0
Siberian 0
NE Asian 0
Papuan 0
American 0
Beringian 0
Mediterranean 58
SW Asian 0
San 0
E African 0
Pygmy 0
W African 0

Important differences:
Sardinians
Caucasian +19
SW Asian +7

Basques
NE Euro +21
Baloch +8

We don't know definetely anything about Paleo-Sardinian
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It is true, there are substantial differences, however in both cases their genome is mostly made of European Neolithic.
 
berun said:
It's necessary to take into account the Sea Peoples to count about a Caucasian plus. Denyen, Peleset (Philistines), Shekelesh (Sikules), Sherden (Sardinian), Teresh (Tursa / Etruscan), Tjekker, Weshesh, Lukka (Lycians), Eqwesh (Achaeans), which seem to have a nucleus in the Aegean.
Click to expand...

There are not traces of migration from the East in the Italian Late Bronze Age (including the Islands), rather the contrary (Ceramics, weapons etc. from Italy in Greece and Cyprus)
 
some paper supporting it or just bad memory ?
 
berun said:
some paper supporting it or just bad memory ?
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Renato Peroni, L'Italia alle soglie della storia p.285-286 (snipet here: https://books.google.it/books?redir...AJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=popoli+del+mare, He said that some items were imported, some produced locally in Greece by "Italian" immigrants)

Handmade or Barbarian Ware in the Eastern Mediterranean area
hw.jpg
 
Cato said:
Renato Peroni, L'Italia alle soglie della storia p.285-286 (snipet here: https://books.google.it/books?redir...AJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=popoli+del+mare, He said that some items were imported, some produced locally in Greece by "Italian" immigrants)
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I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Many scholars have concluded that there were extensive trade contacts between Mycenaean Greece and Italy, and some indications of contact with Crete and Malta. Whether that translates into gene flow we'll have to wait and see when we get ancient DNA.
 
Angela said:
I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Many scholars have concluded that there were extensive trade contacts between Mycenaean Greece and Italy, and some indications of contact with Crete and Malta. Whether that translates into gene flow we'll have to wait and see when we get ancient DNA.
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The point is that some items were imported by the Myceneans, some produced locally in Greece by Italian or Italic immigrants (warriors-artisans...words of Renato Peroni), maybe they did not leave any genes because they were few, however they were there in the East at the time of the Sea Peoples invasions, coincidence ? maybe, but who knows?

The main point however was that during the Late Bronze Age Italy was not affected by migrations from the Eastern Mediterranean (no archaeological traces), so the extra CHG must be older (Chalcolithic IMO)
 
Cato said:
The point is that some items were imported by the Myceneans, some produced locally by Italian or Italic immigrants (warriors-artisans) in Greece (words of Renato Peroni), maybe they did not leave any genes because they were few, however they were there in the East at the time of the Sea Peoples invasions, coincidence ? maybe, but who knows?
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The gene flow might very well have gone both ways if there was any, as Italian wares were also found in Greece. We just don't know. What I've had brought home to me very strongly recently is that sometimes pots are people, and sometimes they're just pots.

So, I would say all we can do is see what the DNA shows.
 
Angela said:
The gene flow might very well have gone both ways if there was any, as Italian wares were also found in Greece. We just don't know. What I've had brought home to me very strongly recently is that sometimes pots are people, and sometimes they're just pots.
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Not just pots, also weapons, swords (Naue II type) in particular :)
So, I would say all we can do is see what the DNA shows.
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I agree
 
Cato said:
Renato Peroni, L'Italia alle soglie della storia p.285-286 (snipet here: https://books.google.it/books?redir...AJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=popoli+del+mare, He said that some items were imported, some produced locally in Greece by "Italian" immigrants)

Handmade or Barbarian Ware in the Eastern Mediterranean area
View attachment 8717
Click to expand...

Mycenaeans were trading goods all along the Mediterranean sea, so it's not necessary to have Italians in the Aegean to have objects from abroad; by the way, when primitivism or emporishment is a proof of origin? people using paper in the XXII Century will be taken as migrants from elsewhere?
 
berun said:
Mycenaeans were trading goods all along the Mediterranean sea, so it's not necessary to have Italians in the Aegean to have objects from abroad; by the way, when primitivism or emporishment is a proof of origin? people using paper in the XXII Century will be taken as migrants from elsewhere?
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Before the advent of ancient DNA analysis, how have scholars traced possible population movements,Berun? Hasn't it been through analyzing physical remains, like pottery or swords? (as well as life style changes etc.) It's been imperfect, to be sure, but it's all we had, yes? Plus, what else were you using if not physical remains to support your contention of movement from the east into Italy? It seems a little odd to suddenly be saying now that it shouldn't be used.

As I said up thread, only ancient DNA will help us figure out if the pots are just pots or if they also represent people.
 
The proof presented was hand-made pottery vs wheel pottery!
 
berun said:
The proof presented was hand-made pottery vs wheel pottery!
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Perhaps you should reread my post and try thinking about it a little more abstractly. i''m sure you'll then see the irony.
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
Greeks probably believed that 'Scythians' invented the potter's wheel. I am not sure what the term 'Scythian' originally meant.

I like the following text by the way: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0258:book=1:chapter=8

Most 'Mycenean' pottery outside Greece and Cyprus is usually attirbuted to trade, not 'warrior-artisans'. I don't know if 'warrior artisans' ever existed.
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Handmade ware is very coarse, it was not made for export..

not all Handamade ware is Italian, it was also produced by Balkanic peoples. We know that in Troy the Handmade Knobbed Ware was brought by a barbaric folk from the Danube that settled in the ruins of the city in the LBA.
 
Can someone explain to me why this is important on a thread about the accuracy of the P-C steppe theory for the spread of the IndoEuropean languages?
 
Angela said:
Can someone explain to me why this is important on a thread about the accuracy of the P-C steppe theory for the spread of the IndoEuropean languages?
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I'm OT, sorry


Returning to the topic, i find interesting that from the point of view of the physical anthropology in Turkey there isn't nothing "Nordic" or Steppic till the Phrygian period, so an association between CHG and Hittites make sense to me

http://dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/26/1049/12664.pdf
 
Cato said:
I'm OT, sorry


Returning to the topic, i find interesting that from the point of view of the physical anthropology in Turkey there isn't nothing "Nordic" or Steppic till the Phrygian period, so an association between CHG and Hittites make sense to me

http://dergiler.ankara.edu.tr/dergiler/26/1049/12664.pdf
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Unfortunately, I won't be able to link anything until I get my laptop back tomorrow, but there's a new paper on ancient Canaanite DNA which dates "steppe" admixture in the Middle East to pretty late indeed, to the Persians and the Macedonians. That paper deserves its own thread. I read it, but can't get this tablet to let me access the Supplementary Info. So, we'll see. Unlike the usual suspects, I'll let the data speak without twisting or cherry picking it.
 
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