Basques and Etruscans

[Balkanite]

Does anyone know if the etruscans had, and if the basques have some sort of Y-dna or mt-dna haplogroups which are exclusive to them?(Or near exclusive)
You know, if they have/had some haplogroups which are considered as being the harbingers of their languages to their respective areas?
Kinda like we consider some haplogroups to be the bringers of IE languages to europe.

 

[LeBrok]

No Etruscan DNA yet.

 

[firetown]

MtDNA JT in the case of Etruscans.
There does not appear to be an exclusive Basque haplogroup.
But the older the ancient burial grounds examined, the higher the percentages of mtDNA K and J become.

 

[Angela]

MtDNA JT in the case of Etruscans.
There does not appear to be an exclusive Basque haplogroup.
But the older the ancient burial grounds examined, the higher the percentages of mtDNA K and J become.

That's incorrect. There was also a lot of U5.

As to ancient EtruscanmtDna see:
Silvia Ghirotto et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0055519

See the discussion at the Dienekes site:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/02...tto-et-al.html

As a knowledgeable poster explained, the EtruscanmtDna in this large sample is a mixture of U5 and J. Looks like admixture between Neolithic and Mesolithic peoples to me...or, in other words, pretty similar to Central European Neolithic or Middle Neolithic.

Th low level of resolution means we don't yet know when it arrived in Tuscany.

We have no ancient y dna for the Etruscans, and no actual autosomal data.

We have one largely unexplained PCA.

 

[firetown]

That's incorrect.

Which part?

Regarding Etruscans:

Six Etruscan sequences show the 126-193 motif. In modern individuals, these substitutions occur in lineages attributed to the J2, and occasionally T, haplogroups, accompanied by substitutions at 069 or 294, respectively, which were not observed in these six sequences. Therefore, on the basis of the HVR-I motifs, these sequences could belong to either the HV or to the JT haplogroups. However, in all of them, the MseI site was present at 14766, which rules out the hypothesis that they could belong to the HV haplogroup. Considering that postmortem changes lead to false positives (i.e., substitutions observed in the ancient sample that did not exist in the living individual) at 069 or 294 but are not known to generate false negatives there (Gilbert et al. 2003), we see no compelling reason to imagine that these results are due to postmortem damage. In addition, these sequences were determined in multiple clones for each individual, which makes a sequencing error unlikely. Therefore, despite the absence of substitutions at 069 or 294, the sequences with the 126-193 motif appear to belong to the JT haplogroup.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/

 

[Angela]

That the mtDna was all JT, of course. The paper you are referencing is from 2004. The Silvia Ghirotti paper is from 2013.

When you've finished reading a paper you've found, it's always important to take the next step and do a citation search to see if the findings have been amended or even totally refuted.

This particular situation also highlights the importance of looking at the authors. The two papers are authored by basically the same people. In the first paper they were highlighting the JT they found. In the latest paper they looked at all the Etruscan mtDna, which was a combination of JT and U5. The closest other place where such a combination could be found was Germany.

They also attempted in later papers to date the JT, and realized it was too old for first millennium BC, although in my opinion we can't say very much definitively unless they can get something pretty close to full ancient mitogenomes.

Get it now?

 

[Pax Augusta]

Which part?

That they were all MtDNA JT only. That's incorrect. The samples, in the study you are referring to, were 80, 6 out of 80 sequences show the 126-193 motif. And the other 74 samples? Anyway, "these six sequences could belong to either the HV or to the JT haplogroups".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/

From the same study (a very old study anyway)

To address the above questions, we obtained from museums and public collections fragments of 80 well-preserved skeletons from 10 Etruscan necropoleis (fig. 1), covering much of Etruria in terms of both chronology (7th to 2nd centuries b.c.) and geography. All human remains analyzed come from sites where (1) the material culture has been identified as Etruscan by archaeologists, and (2) all inscriptions, if any, are in Etruscan. Two cities, Adria and Capua, were at the fringes of Etruscan territory, in the Po River valley and in Campania, respectively. Historical documents and archaeological evidence, such as inscriptions in Etruscan and decorations on the pottery, show that these were indeed Etruscan settlements (Barker and Rasmussen 1998; Bonfante 1999; Haynes 2000), although they were both locations where hybridization may have occurred—with Veneti (in Adria) and with Samnium natives or Greek colonizers (in Capua).

In the reduced median network based on HVR-I sequences and on the 14766 MseI polymorphism (fig. 2), several clusters are evident. Two lineages, characterized by substitutions 193-219 and 356, respectively, have a rather high internal diversity. The former substitutions are documented in Cornwall, England (but in association with 186-260-362), and the latter along the eastern and central Mediterranean shores, including Tuscany, with some derivatives in northern Europe. The only lineage containing a transversion, 095G-189, also occurs in Turkey, while the lineage with the 129 substitution is present in the eastern Mediterranean region and in northern Europe. The lineages with 126 or 126-362 presumably belong to the pre-HV haplogroup and have been observed in southeastern Europe and in the Levant.

Only two Etruscan haplotypes (5AM and 6AM, carried by 13.7% of the individuals) occur in a sample of modern Tuscans who were selected to represent inhabitants of former Etruria (Francalacci et al. 1996)

The limited genealogical continuity between the Etruscans (be they representative of the upper class or of the entire population) and their modern counterparts of Tuscany calls for an explanation

Alternatively, should other ancient populations prove similar to comparable modern ones, one should conclude that the Etruscans’ mitochondrial sequences underwent extinction at a particularly high rate and look for an explanation for that.

More allele sharing with Germans (7 haplotypes in common), Cornish (5 haplotypes in common) than Turks (4 haplotypes in common).

Only two Etruscan haplotypes (5AM and 6AM, carried by 13.7% of the individuals) occur in a sample of modern Tuscans who were selected to represent inhabitants of former Etruria (Francalacci et al. 1996). The average value in comparisons of pairs of modern European populations is 27.9% ± 12.0%, showing that the genetic resemblance between the Etruscans and their modern counterparts is much less than observed between random European populations with no special evolutionary ties. Allele sharing is higher not only with the Turks (four haplotypes in common) but also with other, presumably unrelated, populations, such as the Cornish or the Germans (five and seven haplotypes in common, respectively).

 

[firetown]

Interesting.
Here is a study from 2015 focused on U7a4 attributing it to Near East ancestry.
View attachment 8840

This haplogroup has never been found in Europe, with the exception of the one instance observed in our Tuscans and two other in West Russia. The phylogeographic characteristics of this U7a4 point clearly to an origin in the Near East (

"Mitogenomes from The 1000 Genome Project Reveal New Near Eastern Features in Present-Day Tuscans"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4365045/

 

[Angela]

Firetown, I hate to break this to you, but all mtdna in Europe except U5 and U4 is probably Near Eastern in origin. It just depends when it came, yes?

Is there some larger point you're trying to make?

As to that paper we've discussed it in depth. Just use the search engine to find it.

Let's try to stick to the question posed in the OP, shall we? That question is whether there is mt and y dna specific to Etruscans. We can't answer that question without looking at ancient Etruscan mtDna, which is the only ancient Etruscan dna we have. It was a mix of U5 and JT. Future discoveries may change the story. We'll see.

 

[Vallicanus]

That's incorrect. There was also a lot of U5.

As to ancient EtruscanmtDna see:
Silvia Ghirotto et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0055519

See the discussion at the Dienekes site:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/02...tto-et-al.html

As a knowledgeable poster explained, the EtruscanmtDna in this large sample is a mixture of U5 and J. Looks like admixture between Neolithic and Mesolithic peoples to me...or, in other words, pretty similar to Central European Neolithic or Middle Neolithic.

Th low level of resolution means we don't yet know when it arrived in Tuscany.

We have no ancient y dna for the Etruscans, and no actual autosomal data.

We have one largely unexplained PCA.

What does IBS signify?

 

[Angela]

What does IBS signify?

Vallicanus, your memory is getting as bad as mine. It's Spain, of course.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Firetown...
Is there some larger point you're trying to make?

I have the impression of knowing it.

Interesting.
Here is a study from 2015 focused on U7a4 attributing it to Near East ancestry.

Based on that extremely brilliant paper today we can say with great certainty and absolute honesty that the Etruscans settled also in West Russia.

This haplogroup has never been found in Europe, with the exception of the one instance observed in our Tuscans and two other in West Russia. The phylogeographic characteristics of this U7a4 point clearly to an origin in the Near East

Seriously, it's a paper based on a modern sample, no Etruscan DNA there. Those haplogroups could have arrived at any historical moment, and they do not give us any information about the Etruscans. Moreover, the 1000 genomes sample used in the paper is perhaps not so accurate when you do not look at it as a whole, because, as explained several times also here, to collect that sample was used the 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany rule as minimum requirement. Not to mention that the sample comes from the most urbanized area of Tuscany with no particular link to the Etruscan civilization. And about 1200 Tuscany, and specifically that area of Tuscany where the sample comes from, was one of the most most urbanized area in Europe, second, if that, only to Low Countries.

 

[firetown]

Sorry. I must have clicked on the wrong link and then ran with it. Obviously it is not relevant to the thread.
As for the question of the OP: I was under the assumption that JT was a (near) exclusive mtDNA marker for the ancient Etruscans: http://www.jogg.info/pages/22/Coffman.htm

Two separate aDNA studies on the Etruscans reached similar conclusions, finding essentially no genetic relationship between the ancient Etruscans and the modern-day inhabitants of Tuscany (ie, “Tuscans”) (Belle 2006; Vernesi 2004). Specifically, out of twenty-eight mtDNA sequences, only six occur in any modern-day groups. The remaining twenty-one haplotypes, identified as belonging to the JT haplogroup, do not occur in any contemporary European populations, including the common Etruscan haplotypes 16126- 16193 and 16126-16193-16278. These sequences, while occurring among modern-day haplogroups J2 and T, are not accompanied by substitutions at 16069 and 16294, respectively, which are inevitably present among the contemporary motifs (Vernesi 2004). The researchers attributed this lack of genetic relationship between Etruscans and Tuscans to two possible processes – the extinction of Etruscan mtDNA lineages among modern-day Europeans, or demographic and evolutionary processes occurring in the last 2,500 years. These processes, if they occurred, were severe enough to disrupt the genetic continuity between the modern and ancient inhabitants of Tuscany.

 

[Angela]

Now you're up to a 2006 paper. I guess that's progress of a sort.

You are aware these are very fragmentary results, are you not? You're also aware that there is often post mortem damage with samples this old? Plus, do you know how many more mtdna lines have been categorized in eleven years? Who knows whether they'd be able to find matches now?

Who knows what precise lineages these are? Who knows when they arrived in Italy with this low level of resolution? Did you read the newest paper?

I'm sorry, I don't understand all this certainty on your part as to what this portion of the samples represents when all we have is obviously inconclusive and fragmentary data. That's why I said we need whole mitogenomes from the Etruscans. The methods of extraction are so much better now. I just hope they didn't grind all those bits of bone to dust with this early attempt at an analysis.

They'll have to go after the petrous bone in some of their remains. I'm also very hopeful they'll get good results from the recently found remains.

That's my only bias in all of this research. I'm going to be seriously disappointed if I don't match them at least a little.

 

[firetown]

You are aware these are very fragmentary results, are you not?

Yes. But I am looking for the exclusive type. And I recall a friend
being mtDNA JT and sharing her results from years ago stating likely
Etruscan ancestry. So I was interested in that specific marker and
searching for that as I cannot think of any type that could be
considered exclusive (as the OP was requesting).

I am curious as to whether or not the OP is interested in determining
a potential connection between the ancient Basques and the ancient
Etruscans. Examinations of ancient Basque burial grounds indicate a
trend increasing mtDNA J frequencies the further you go back in time.
J derives from JT.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Yes. But I am looking for the exclusive type. And I recall a friend
being mtDNA JT and sharing her results from years ago stating likely
Etruscan ancestry. So I was interested in that specific marker and
searching for that as I cannot think of any type that could be
considered exclusive (as the OP was requesting).

I am curious as to whether or not the OP is interested in determining
a potential connection between the ancient Basques and the ancient
Etruscans. Examinations of ancient Basque burial grounds indicate a
trend increasing mtDNA J frequencies the further you go back in time.
J derives from JT.

According to Gail Tonnesen, based on Ghirotto 2013, ancient Etruscans samples were dominated by mtDNA haplogroups J and U5.

Etruscan samples were mostly mtDNA U5 and mtDNA JT (of which the overwhelming majority belonged to mtDNA J), and a minority was mtDNA H1b.

Etruscans based on their mtDNA were identical to Neolithic people from Central Europe (Germany, Austria, and Hungary). This Neolithic people belonged to Linear pottery culture (in German LBK Linearbandkeramik) and were sampled by Haak 2005 (Ancient DNA from the First European Farmers in 7500-Year-Old Neolithic Sites) and Lacan 2011.

From Haak 2005