Putting an end to Greek/Albanian feuds

[Balkanite]

What is true is that Arvanites have made a big impact in Attica(apart from Athens), S. Euboea and NE Peloponnese and a few islands near Attica and smaller elsewhere. Some were important for the revolution, some irrelevant.

Then i don't see why we were arguing to start with. We are claiming the same thing. It is just the details that we don't agree completely on. But that should not lead to such a big war as have been going on all day. It is normal that people disagree on details like if it was 30%, 40% or 50% Arvanites in the newly found Greek state.
But i am glad that i can see both an albanian and a greek who can meet halfway. This makes my day

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I don't believe that we should fight but, personally, without claiming purity, I don't have any known Arvanite ancestor.

Some things are complex though. I don't believe the average Greek will ever feel close to a Muslim Albanian (although I know that they are quite secular and often semi non-practising, especially in Albania).

I liked the idea of a Balkan federation, although it is not realistic. Greece should have good relations with Romania and Bulgaria first, as things are now.

 

[Yetos]

I have no interest in this dispute. So I want to understand a bit the facts.

I watched that video for the first time yesterday (thanks balkanite). I don't care how famous or infamous this professor is.
I care if the facts (not the interpretations) are true. Her interpretation in terms of borders I will not take as science but as opinion - so no facts.

Please, my greek friends, are the facts she mentions true (documents she mentions and their text)?
For me she is talking about the history of modern Greece, and the contribution of arvanitas at that time to the creation of the state.

Honestly I am proud that some albanian-origined people made such a contribution to the creation of the state (depending on our answer).

Did they get sufficient credit, over credit, no credit? Is there any Greek contributor in the creation of Albania that we are forgetting to give credit?

For me these are the relevant information, because the will determine Our future relations.

Best

Bergin

some facts about Arbanites and Arberesh,

the first wave is a smal army part of General Maniakis who came from Magna Grecia to Epidamnos and from there revolt against Con/polis,
that is known as the Arbereshides of Korone (Corona),
General Maniakis died outside Thessaloniki,
a small part moved to south Italy San Demetrio di Corona, Pianna dei Greci (Hora) Sikelia etc etc
The true Arberesh
The true Arvanites came after 1204 4rth Crusade and before 1240 invited by the Latin rulers of Ducchy of Athens,
they are the ones around Theba and Athens,
from there expand to surrounding islands like Euboia Spetses etc,

the Arvanites of Nauplion went by invitation of Ottomans few centuries later.

the above are the true Arvanites,

others

The Souliotes, and other Clans
the Souliotes is a mix of Albanians Slavs Greeks etc who served Kastrioti,
they moved south to Epirus and create a confederation of Villages,

the Lalla-ioi
the worst sworn enemy of Greeks.
they came after the Orlov's revolt by High Gate (Sultan) order and slain Greeks and Arvanites
their attrocities stayed in History.

The ArvantoVlachs, like the Ginides The Tositses the Remioi (Remeni)
they are mostly Aromani from South Albania who moved south for religious mainly reasons,
they stayed at Epirus and Thessaly and Aetolia Acarnania, they moved after the destruction of Moschopolis till after 1860 (new lands)
their language is mostly Aromanian with Albanian and Greek

the Mellioi the Zaziakes etc
Greeks and Aromani from central Albania above Epirus around Tirana and Dyrrachion
they had strong Albanian vocabulary
at Makedonia Thessaly after 1770 and 1860

there are also few Greeks from Elbasan area,
can not remember family/clan names
if remember correct Damales or Dumales etc


now if there is any contribution to Albanian state creation

I will answer only 3

1 If Greece did not manage to liberate her shelf, surely Ottoman empire will be all over the land.
so considering that Greek revolt and then St Stephan treaty etc etc and last Albania,
I think it is a good thought to realize what it was,

2 the time that Albanian major politician was with the Dilemma neo-Turks or Sultan
a young Albanian studdied in Greece,
That man is major mind of Albania away from Ottoman
His Name is Ismael Kenan Vlore, I suggest read his newspapper, especially the 2nd one.

3 If Greeks did not manage to take Μπιζανι (Bizani or Mpizani) from the Germans/Turks
Albania would not have the Support of Austria and rest to become indepented

on controversary,
what contribution had Albania ( Not Arvanites) to Greek revolt

1 Lalla-ioi
the known ones from their atrocities

2 Omer Vryone

3 Raep aga

4 Bekiar Bey

you want me to tell more names?

that is something that Balkanite can not understand.

so I watched Eythymiou many times,
and believe me I know when she is lying,
and when says the truth,
so do not tell me about a video that is not an official work of her.
but a speach on a gathering.

I suggest read this bellow and you will understand more
it happened like yesterday or 2 days before.

the Battle of Lalla, sorry but is only in few languages
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μάχη_του_Λάλα

the father Kolokotronis was the main enemy of Lalla, his name is synonym to anti-Lalla
How come Eythymioy claim that Kolokotronis was 'brother' of Lallaioi

also read about the battle of Steno-Trikorfo at 10-12 June 1779
with Μαυρογενης (Morosini) and kolokotronis

 

[Bergin]

I don't believe that we should fight but, personally, without claiming purity, I don't have any known Arvanite ancestor.

Some things are complex though. I don't believe the average Greek will ever feel close to a Muslim Albanian (although I know that they are quite secular and often semi non-practising, especially in Albania).

I liked the idea of a Balkan federation, although it is not realistic. Greece should have good relations with Romania and Bulgaria first, as things are now.

None is saying that you should have Arvanite ancestors, just that Arvanites culture is part of the modern Hellenic culture and as such you are indirectly influenced by it. What I mean that you are prod of the fustanella too (dont know the word in Greek). Maybe I am wrong.



Yes things are complex, and I honestly do appreciate you directness. Will try to correspond to that: Albanian muslims (by denomination or by choice) are relatively tepid of Greeks, they wouldn't mind mingling with Greeks in the big world.
Catholic Albanians generally are pretty cold of Greeks (and Turks), because they consider them oriental. Typically balcanic to like what is far and dis-deign what is close.


Well this is the last time I get involved in such topics and already spent to much worthy time. Enjoy the fights guys.

 

[Bergin]

Yetos, let us try to remember the good things of each other and not the bad ones. That is a choice.
I am out of this topic because it saddens me a lot.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

None is saying that you should have Arvanite ancestors, just that Arvanites culture is part of the modern Hellenic culture and as such you are indirectly influenced by it. What I mean that you are prod of the fustanella too (dont know the word in Greek). Maybe I am wrong.



Yes things are complex, and I honestly do appreciate you directness. Will try to correspond to that: Albanian muslims (by denomination or by choice) are relatively tepid of Greeks, they wouldn't mind mingling with Greeks in the big world.
Catholic Albanians generally are pretty cold of Greeks (and Turks), because they consider them oriental. Typically balcanic to like what is far and dis-deign what is close.


Well this is the last time I get involved in such topics and already spent to much worthy time. Enjoy the fights guys.

In the islands people didn't wear the fustanella and even in Epirus there were people who wore pants. I don't know the correlation with ethnic affiliations or percentages etc. The 'French (=pro-France) Party' of Kolettis who was a Vlach was called 'Party of the fustanella'. So, various people wore it. To be frank, it isn't something that I consider important culturally. We are product of various things including Western cultural influence. Some regions may have more Anatolian or Venetian or Slavic influence etc

I like Epirus culturally. It's music more than anything else. But also the music of Greeks from Smyrna, for example. And concerning language the most interesting dialects are the Southeastern ones and Pontic Greek.

Yes, I am aware of what Catholic Albanians think. I believe there are Greeks that don't know about their existence. And genetically they are more NW but I don't believe that's something to be proud about really.

 

[Nik]

Actually as a Catholic Albanian (well my background as I'm not religious) are not genetically more NW at all. It's there where you find some of the highest concentrations of E-V13, J2b, and R1b. I don't even know if other haplogroups are present among the Catholic tribes.

 

[Fatherland]

Ghegs of Catholic or Muslim faith are no different autosomally. Nobody mixed with racial outsiders.

Most Muslim Ghegs are since the 17th to 19th century(when most of the conversions underwent) converts from the Catholic faith and some from Orthodox.

 

[Diomedes]

OP is trying to make a case here, although he does not have the power to do so. Unfortunately he lacks many valuable information and intel to proceed with his case (or he actually tries to mis-inform us by just mentioning only a part of the truth. His rhetoric points out that more than half of Greeks are actually Albanians. This is not the case. Yes, they were Albanian speaking people who came down after the invitation of the Byzantine Emperor, but this does not mean that Greeks were totally annihilated in the first place and that the newcomers found a bare land.

Regarding old wounds between the two countries, I suggest for the full implementation of the Corfu Agreement. Northern Epirus has to return to Greece, where it ethnically belongs.

 

[Yetos]

OP is trying to make a case here, although he does not have the power to do so. Unfortunately he lacks many valuable information and intel to proceed with his case (or he actually tries to mis-inform us by just mentioning only a part of the truth. His rhetoric points out that more than half of Greeks are actually Albanians. This is not the case. Yes, they were Albanian speaking people who came down after the invitation of the Byzantine Emperor, but this does not mean that Greeks were totally annihilated in the first place and that the newcomers found a bare land.
.

not by Byzantine emperror but by Latin ruler of Ducchy of Athens
after 4rth crusade Λατινοκρατια

de la Roche Family Burgundian nobility

 

[Diomedes]

Thanks for providing this info. I thought it was a Byzantine Emperor.

not by Byzantine emperror but by Latin ruler of Ducchy of Athens
after 4rth crusade Λατινοκρατια

de la Roche Family Burgundian nobility

 

[Dibran]

Yes, it is so obvious how some users start warmongering as soon as their beliefs are compromised.
I actually though that a lecture by an acknowledged academic would make them see things more clearly. But it is like, if a theory does not meet their political agendas, they suddenly turn blind and deaf all at once.

And this video actually is the most realistic one in my opinion. Because she neither agrees with albanian nationalists, nor with greek nationalists. She just states cold numbers and fact, and recites actual historical memoirs.

But for the greek nationalists, it is easier to demonize Maria Eftimiu than to admit that they are wrong.

Luckily for all of us, neither the greek nationalists, nor the albanian ones, have any authority to write history anymore. So i believe that eventually people like Maria will emerge as the dominant ones, both in the greek academic stage, and the albanian academic stage

Eventually when everyone believes the facts, some apologies are going to be made, and Albanians and Greeks can once again be good neighbours.
I just hope this will happen in my lifetime, and not some 100 years in the future.

Its a hope that all see such civility as a benefit to progress of relations rather than a detriment. Sadly this balkan thick headedness seems to be common amongst all balkan peoples. They even do it against their own people who speak reason as you do.

It is actions that dictate the man, not the nation, the blood, or the language. Sadly this is something many of our peoples dont want to understand.