Signals of Phoenician and Jewish influences in the Italian genome, concerned on J1

[Seanp]

This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:

• ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).
• FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.

Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:

• L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).
• Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.
• FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.

There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.

 

[Salento]

Not sure what point you're trying to make.
Express clearly a concise thought. Avoid Innuendo!

 

[Seanp]

Not sure what point you're trying to make.
Express clearly a concise thought. Avoid Innuendo!

There's been an endless discussion if there were recent Near Eastern influences in Italy or not, but the same goes to all South European country and this y-DNA based view suggest that the Phoenicians most likely had some impact along with other Near Eastern related groups on the modern Italian genome, not only some parts of Sicily, but this has extended to South Italy as well.
We're talking about sub types of paternal lineages which are directly linked to certain ethnic groups. For example there are exclusively Ashkenazi groups which only exist in Jews, now we can say that some admixture has happened which can be proven by Y dna.

This is not some pseudo scientifically based study but proven by Y dna frequences which strongly linked to certain ethnic groups.

 

[Salento]

Small groups of the Jewish Diasporas are located in various places in Europe and more.
Not just in Sicily and South of Italy!

 

[Megalophias]

If you are going to copy and paste someone else's post, credit the original author.

 

[Azzurro]

Seanp, whoever you are, you copy & pasted Agamemnon's work, have the decency to at least quote that he is the original source, what you did is technically stealing.

 

[Angela]

So, this is Semitic Duwa's analysis from forumbiodiversity or Agamemnon from anthrogenica?

Ok, so what makes those particular haplogroups "Phoenician" in origin as opposed to just regular Bronze Age J1 that came earlier? Is it based on dating? Is it that specific?How do some matches in Lebanon and Syria prove that it's specifically "Phoenician"? You people are aware, right, of the small footprint of the "Phoenicians" in terms of colonies or even trading zones in Italy?

The same goes for the "Jewish" sub-clades. Were the Jews even a people at the age of these sub-clades? Are they present in both Ashkenazim and Sephardim? The Ashkenazim only really entered Italy very late and from the north, as in post 1800s. You can tell by surnames. They have nothing to do with southern Italy. What is the match with the Italkim, the oldest Jews in Italy?

That's if we even trust the dating, which has been proven wrong by ancient dna before.

The "Arabic" sub-clades may be different.

Then, of course, we should consider what we're talking about in terms of percentages of all yDna, which of course is again different from percentages of autsosomal dna.

This is all J1-58 in Italy. Too bad we don't have a map by specific sub-clade. We're talking about under 1% to under 10%, yes? Any percentages Sicily wide, for example, for the "Phoenician" or "Arabic" or "Jewish" clades? What are we really talking about here?

Gosh, those Phoenicians and Arabs really get around: all the way up in Hungary and Romania. Or are they all descendants of Jews?

 

[Seanp]

So, this is Semitic Duwa's analysis from forumbiodiversity or Agamemnon from anthrogenica?

Ok, so what makes those particular haplogroups "Phoenician" in origin as opposed to just regular Bronze Age J1 that came earlier? Is it based on dating? Is it that specific?How do some matches in Lebanon and Syria prove that it's specifically "Phoenician"? You people are aware, right, of the small footprint of the "Phoenicians" in terms of colonies or even trading zones?

The same goes for the "Jewish" sub-clades? Were the Jews even a people at the age of these sub-clades?

That's if we even trust the dating, which has been proven wrong by ancient dna before.

Then, of course, we should consider what we're talking about in terms of percentages of all yDna, which of course is again different from percentages of autsosomal dna.

This is all J1-58 in Italy. Too bad we don't have a map by specific sub-clade.

Gosh, those Phoenicians and Arabs really get around: all the way up in Hungary and Romania.

If a haplotype only exists in Lebanon in greater numbers and nowhere else except Sicily, then we can make a connection between the two populations. (extremely well if we consider how some surnames in Sicily and Lebanon seem to share common heritage)

There are various different subclades of J1 and there are several different Southwest Asian/Levant originated haplotypes in Italy other than J1. (E1b1b V12, V22, V65), T/F, Near Eastern sub variants of J2 and the Near Eastern variant of R1b L23, V88 haplotypes which doesn't exist anywhere as frequently in Europe other than some regions of Italy. Hungary has had a presence of Jewish communities, so I assume parts of the J1 in Hungary comes from Ashkenazi or Galicianer communities (I have some Ashkenazi ancestry for example and nothing wrong with that)

I have no personal agenda or any gain by this study, but it's interesting how a fascinating group such as Canaanites who basically created the idea of Europe still has some genetic traces in parts of the Mediterranean world. I'd like to mention it's not a coincidence in the latest study made by Sarno on the genome analysis of different Italian vs Greek regions on why South Italy has slightly higher red-Near Eastern elements which is almost on part with Cypriots&Sephardics

 

[Angela]

Seanp: If a haplotype only exists in Lebanon in greater numbers and nowhere else except Sicily, then we can make a connection between the two populations. (extremely well if we consider how some surnames in Sicily and Lebanon seem to share common heritage)

That isn't what the person you quoted above concluded.

The conclusion was that certain sub-clades were Phoenician, or Jewish. I asked very specific questions. I take it you can't answer them.

If you're going to quote someone it helps if you know what the person said.

As to your claims about the other sub-clades, if you're going to make them, source and document them. Otherwise, they go in the ignore pile.

You're aware, right, that we have several threads already on this topic? If you have nothing new to add, I'll be forced to conclude that you're ******** again.

 

[Seanp]

Seanp, whoever you are, you copy & pasted Agamemnon's work, have the decency to at least quote that he is the original source, what you did is technically stealing.

I didn't want to take him trouble, because it's an amateur based "study" like several other work on y-dna haplogroups. But it's far one of the best post I've read on the J1 sub types in a regional based view.

But I have the feeling if a study did concern on the Celtic, German or any influence on the Italian genome it wouldn't be problem because many of these people who interest in these studies have a nationalistic mindset or lack objectivity and feel the Near East and it's great impact on the Mediterranean basin as something to forget, which has it's influences in South Europe too

 

[Seanp]

That isn't what the person you quoted above concluded.

The conclusion was that certain sub-clades were Phoenician, or Jewish. I asked very specific questions. I take it you can't answer them.

If you're going to quote someone it helps if you know what the person said.

As to your claims about the other sub-clades, if you're going to make them, source and document them. Otherwise, they go in the ignore pile.

You're aware, right, that we have several threads already on this topic? If you have nothing new to add, I'll be forced to conclude that you're ******** again.

I used the search function and there are no such topic on the links between Phoenician and modern Italian genome. We can't know everything for 100%, but it's certainly sure there are autosomal genetic signals in the Italian genome left by Romaniotes and Phoenicians.
We already have an ex Roman soldier who used to live in England, but cluster with Northern Egyptians and Palestinians, We can imagine the heterogeneity of Italy, where people of various backgrounds had lived and left their genetic signature.
We have seen enough Italian results to see not all of the "Near Easter" admixture comes from the Neolithic - The majority most likely comes but more recent migrations from the Byzantine and Ex Roman territories had happened from various directions. I have a self made study on the Germanic and Slavic paternal admixtures on the Italian genome and I'll publish it soon.

 

[Angela]

Every single thread on Italian genetics, of which there are many, has had posters who have expressed that opinion.

Since I know you've been on here under another name and have participated in those discussions, you obviously know that. You're just ********.

Do I think that some "Phoenician" yDna from the two areas where the Phoenicians had emporia or colonies might have survived? Yes, I do. Given the probable percentages for that type of yDna in Italy (going by the analysis you posted above), and the fact that Phoenician colonies were very different from Greek colonies and were not folk migrations, the autosomal impact from that specific event isn't worth talking about.

The real question, however, is why would you think it would bother me? What's wrong with the Phoenicians? I always admired them: smart, entrepreneurial, brave, taking to the Med in those little ships and sailing into the unknown. They also invented the alphabet. In addition to all of that they worshiped a mother goddess like their Canaanite forbears. I like their culture a lot better than some I could mention.

My questions were intellectual ones in that I don't know how you could, in the case of the Phoenicians, distinguish these supposed "Phoenician" clades from standard Canaanite clades that could have arrived in the Bronze Age rather than the Iron Age.

You still haven't answered that question.

Now, stop spamming the same thing over and over again.