Did the Afro-Asiatic languages originate in the Levant?

Can we associate all E1b1b with Afro-Asiatic speakers? or only some subclades? what was the subclade that was found in Natufian?

important questions
 
IronSide said:
Can we associate all E1b1b with Afro-Asiatic speakers? or only some subclades? what was the subclade that was found in Natufian?

important questions
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Associating languages with haplogroups? Then R1b Basks, Germans, Latins, Irish, Chad should have spoken the same type of language.
 
DuPidh said:
Associating languages with haplogroups? Then R1b Basks, Germans, Latins, Irish, Chad should have spoken the same type of language.
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DuPidh German, Latin, and Celtic Irish are from one language family, we can explain how the Basks received R1b, Chad R1b separated from IE R1b in the Mesolithic.

The better association is of course between Languages and Cultures, Cultures occupy some territory at some point in time, some subclades of Haplogroups can be associated with some Culture at any given time, if a culture expands its territory in the form of a migration, then the haplogroups of that culture will move to new territory, the language outcome of this migration is of two kinds: 1- the language of the migrants spread with them, assimilating the old inhabitants with their male lineages 2- the migrants adopt a new language, that is the language of the old inhabitants.

In theory, the R1a and R1b that migrated from the Yamna horizon spread the IE languages, at any place we find them today they arrived there speaking some IE language, even the Bask subclade, the original R1b that got there spoke IE, but for some reason, adopted the language of the original inhabitants.

People don't change their language because some neighboring culture is "cool", that's difficult even today, there has to be extensive contact between them, and that happens only with a migration.

If the Natufians spoke proto Afro-Asiatic, then their migrations should have carried male lineages that were present in Natufian into at least the immediate periphery of the Levant, or in the best case, all Afro-Asiatic territory. the subclade found in Natufian was E-M123 ? or it's immediate ancestor, but that's only strong in the Near East, other subclades of E1b1b take over in Africa.
 
IronSide said:
I descend from Odin :grin:

Odin was a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer in Motala, Sweden.
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Was actually a Germanic chieftain whom the early English kings/conquerors claim patrilineal descent. The later Norse borrowed, or deified the chieftain for some reason. The original was no god, just a mortal man. He did not originate in Scandinavia but rather NW Europe.
 
Aaron1981 said:
Was actually a Germanic chieftain whom the early English kings/conquerors claim patrilineal descent. The later Norse borrowed, or deified the chieftain for some reason. The original was no god, just a mortal man. He did not originate in Scandinavia but rather NW Europe.
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Blasphemy, you will now be cursed forever, mere mortal.

from Old NorseÓðinn, akin to Old High German Wotan and Old English Wōden. From Proto-Germanic *Wōdanaz, derived from Proto-Germanic *wōþuz (“rage, manic inspiration, furor poeticus”), from Proto-Indo-European *weh₂t- (“to be excited”). Compare Old Norse óðr (“rage”) and Dutch woede (“rage”) and woeden (“to rage”), Latin vātēs.

I read once that he is compared with the Hindu Varuna, see this book page 40
 
IMO E-M35 with TMRCA 24.1 ka in the Levant is the origin of Afro-Asiatic.
Semitic is bronze age Levant. Some subclades of J1-P58 are the origin of Arabic in bronze age Levant.
And there are of course the Cadic R1b-V88.
 
bicicleur said:
IMO E-M35 with TMRCA 24.1 ka in the Levant is the origin of Afro-Asiatic.
Semitic is bronze age Levant. Some subclades of J1-P58 are the origin of Arabic in bronze age Levant.
And there are of course the Cadic R1b-V88.
Click to expand...

That's the direction in which I'm leaning at the moment as well. It ties in with the increasing likelihood that there were multiple expansions from the Levant into Africa, some, as you point out, very early indeed, and some occurring later. The model using Alder showing one such expansion is incorrect: that's the problem I have with Alder generally, i.e. that it picks up only the last such expansion.

This would explain the diverse ydna lineages involved.

The R1b V88 is interesting. It would seem to have been involved in the very early migrations, as would the lineages carrying the Berber languages, yes?

@Ironside,
Language change doesn't necessarily, so far as I can see, necessitate large scale folk migrations. It can be a matter of elite transfer, i.e. the adoption of Latin in the former Roman Empire in much of Europe. On the other hand the Goths adopted Italian. It's certainly true, however, that it often results from folk migrations.

As to Odin etc. I guess even Razib Khan has his blindspot. I very much appreciate the humorous posts, btw. Very witty.:)
 
bicicleur said:
IMO E-M35 with TMRCA 24.1 ka in the Levant is the origin of Afro-Asiatic.
Semitic is bronze age Levant. Some subclades of J1-P58 are the origin of Arabic in bronze age Levant.
And there are of course the Cadic R1b-V88.
Click to expand...
That's what I was trying to say in my post.
 
Full text of "Elam: A bridge between Ancient Near East and Dravidian India (1999)" by Blazek. The text contains about a 100 lexical parallels between various Afro-Asiatic languages and Elamite mainly, but also with Sumerian and Dravidian.

Elamite-Afroasiatic lexical and grammatical cognates can be considered as evidence for the Near Eastern homeland of Afro-Asiatic, given that Afro-Asiatic influenced these languages then it should have been the language of the first Neolithic cultures, certainly those in the Levant, but not necessarily in Anatolia and Iran, because we learned they were distinct from Lazaridis genetic structure of the world's first farmers, in the case of Iran, Afro-Asiatic seem to have only formed a substrate in Elamite, Dravidian, and Sumerian, and didn't replace these languages, the same thing could have happened in Anatolia.

The distribution of R1b-V88 among mainly Afro-Asiatic speakers (Copts, Berbers, Chad) and T in Cushitic speakers from the Horn of Africa are another evidence for a Eurasian homeland.
 
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