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That's outrageous indeed. Three years of jail time to trying to have a baby ! There are still quite a few stupid laws that need to be scrapped if Turkey ever wants to join the EU.Originally Posted by ^ lynx ^
I can only imagine such thing in the Germany of the Third Reich.
I am surprised that the mainstream media always talk about the same issues regarding Turkey's Human Rights infringements (like Kurdish political prisoners), but hardly ever mention this kind of issues. I can understand more easily that a country imprison separatist terrorists than a supposedly democratic and secular government passing laws with sole purpose to imprison ordinary citizen trying to have a baby by means of modern science. This is utterly intolerable. And I am saying this as a person who think that Turkey should one day have the right to join the EU (although I am 100% opposed to North African countries).
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Fair enough, Maciamo. However, I believe we all recognize who the inveterate instigator of conflict is here.
No ban to Sirious? OK whatever. I guess you enjoy closing/moving/deleting threads Maciamo. Because if you read carefully all our pasts discussions (and this one) this guy is always the epicenter/starter of the conflicts.
I warned you in the beginning that this guy is a ***** who comes from other forum I used to visit. His only agenda in here is ******** and harassing us like some kind of sick iberian-addict. Whatever the issue we are discussing he always have to bring his iberianphobic obsession into the thread.
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I agree with Lynx. How is Sirious not banned ?? when it is very clear that in all the threads closed/splitted he has always been the one to start the conflict. We where talking here about Turkey, and all of a sudden he starts provoking spaniards for no reason...
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I thing that @Maciamo was right in cutting all the not Turkey content here.
Regards.
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Sirius has been a trouble maker from the start. And he constantly misrepresents the facts when it comes to Iberians, particularly Spaniards. I'm waiting for this character to begin racially slandering Spaniards and Portuguese directly. I can tell you one thing, he seems to have an extreme pathological dislike for anything Iberian.
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Damn, you sound so childish ! "No it's not me, it's him. I didn't do it I promise. He is the bad guy !" Is this kindergarten ?
A ke bono if you wasn't present during this episode and aren't aware of the whole story (which it happens to be the case), please do not intervene. We don't need a newbie to mix things up right now. Thank you.
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If you have no real knowledge of what transpired it is best not to comment.
There is a history on this thread (and others) that clearly points to a specific individual creating problems by repeatedly attacking Spaniards. If anyone is behaving childishly it is he.
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Well, regarding Turkey...
Most of the Europeans (I mean, normal people) only look at the mere fact if Turkey is going to enter de EU or not...
However, although it would be undeniably a very important event, the fact is that I am much more interested in the spiritual, political and diplomatic changes and mentality in Europe AND MOSTLY, IN TURKEY...
What better than reading it from Turks themselves... ??
(Unfortunatelly English is not the most prevalent European language in which Turks communicate outside turkish... but being this an European forum, please indulge me... )
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In summary, I see it as a "Play in three acts".
1. The first, will be this article supposedly written by former German intelligence member (in reality, wrote by the Chinese intelligence):
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/IH09Aa01.html
(It is very long, so read it when you have time)
2. The second, will be the confirmation of such plans and mentality... by the Turks of the streets themselves...
3. And the third, will be the full realisation of that, and the looking for a new place of Turkey in the world, looking for a great Turkish destiny, mostly in its own space... as it could be seen in this "violent" interchange in a forum, between a German and a Turk.Es ist für uns geradezu wieder ein Treppenwitz der Geschichte, dass der zweite « Anker » der Türkei im Westen, also die Beitrittszusage zur EU, wohl ein entscheidender Faktor für ein Ausscheiden der Türkei aus dem westlichen Lager sein wird. Diese Zusage ist nicht einlösbar. Daran ändert auch die Eröffnung der Beitrittsverhandlungen im Jahr 2005, die die Regierungen der EU-Mitgliedstaaten aus Mangel an politischem Mut und kurzsichtig mit Hinweis auf ein einmal gegebenes Versprechen beschlossen haben, nichts. Am Ende dieser Beitrittsverhandlungen steht nicht ein Türkei-Beitritt zur EU. Vielmehr werden damit die zwei Bedingungen, die Grundlage für den neuen türkischen außenpolitischen Kurs sind, geschaffen:
- Um die EU-Standards für Demokratie und Rechtsstaat zu erfüllen, musste die Armee sich aus ihrer Teilhabe an der Macht und ihrem Kontrollanspruch über die Politik zurückziehen. Seit Jahrzehnten hatte die türkische Armee das Land mit Hilfe von politischen Marionetten regiert; geschah es, dass die Wähler einmal eine Partei wählten, die der Armee nicht passte, übernahm die Armee die Macht ganz offen. Die Armee proklamierte sich zum Nachlassverwalter Atatürks, missbrauchte aber die daraus abgeleitete Machtposition überwiegend, um das Land unter Kontrolle zu halten und den bestmöglichen Nutzen aus den reichlichen finanziellen Mitteln zu ziehen, die Nato, EU und die USA (7) in das Land pumpten, um sich der Türkei für die Treue zum westlichen Lager erkenntlich zu erzeigen. Die Schwächung der türkischen Armee bringt den Westen um seine treuesten Verbündeten in der türkischen Gesellschaft. Wieder einmal beweist Geschichte ihren Sinn für Ironie.
- Welch enormen Widerstände in der EU und insbs. in den öffentlichen Meinungen (8) der Mitgliedstaaten gegen einen auch nur langfristigen Beitritt der Türkei bestehen, wird den Menschen in der Türkei seit nunmehr vier Jahren regelmäßig vor Augen geführt. Gleichzeitig musste die Türkei erkennen, dass die sogenannten „Beitrittsverhandlungen“ bei weitem keine Verhandlungen sind (9), sondern lediglich der Überprüfung dienen, dass der Beitrittskandidat die 90000 Seiten EU -Gesetzestexte (acquis communautaire in sein Rechtssystem aufgenommen hat. Das ist unerlässliche Voraussetzung für einen Beitritt. Verhandelbar sind lediglich Umsetzungsfristen für die einzelnen Bereiche. Für die öffentliche Meinung in der Türkei ist dieses Verfahren Ausdruck für eine „Kolonialisierung auf Gesetzeswege“. Protesten blieben nicht aus und die Ressentiments wachsen. Bei den jüngeren Türken setzt sich allmählich der Eindruck fest, dass die Europäer sie gar nicht dabei haben wollen und dass sich das Land in eine Sackgasse habe manövrieren lassen. Diese Erkenntnis bedeutet einen Bruch mit einer über vierzig Jahre gepflegten politischen Doktrin, nach der für die Türkei eine wünschenswerte Zukunft nur in einem EU-Beitritt liegen könne. Die Enttäuschung vieler Türken über die EU trieb der an der Macht befindlichen islamistischen Partei, die nur äußerst widerwillig den EU-Beitritt verfolgte (10), neue, nicht-religiöse Wählerschichten zu, die einen EU-Beitritt ablehnen oder jedenfalls als nicht erstrebenswert ansehen.
Source: http://www.politik.de/forum/naher-un...rieden-10.htmlZitat von mammoth
1. Hat Erdogan in Deutschland einen Dreck zu melden.
Erdogan ist ein wahrer Türke. Er sieht aus wie ein Türke, er redet wie ein Türke und er benimmt sich wie ein Türke. Er hat die korrupte Elite der Türkei entmachtet. Die Türken jubeln ihm zu, weil er einer von ihnen ist und keine Marionette des Westens. Ich kann mich noch an diesen Yilmaz erinnern. Ein furchtbar schleimiger Typ, der Helmut Kohl in den Hintern gekrochen ist. Oder an diese Frau (Ciller oder Cilla ?), die kein Kopftuch getragen hat und schon fast ein wenig nuttig rüberkam. Die deutschen Politiker können einem wie Erdogan nicht das Wasser reichen. Er hat ihre schändliche Assimilierungspolitik durchschaut und schützt sein türkisches Volk in Deutschland. Wenn einer wie Erdogan spricht, sollten deutsche Politiker aller Parteien einfach mal das Maul halten und genau zuhören. Von ihm können sie was lernen. Im Übrigen ist freiwillige Assimilierung Vaterlandsverrat und erzwungene Assimilierung sehe ich als Verbrechen.
Zitat von mammoth
2. Was ist türkische Identität ? Sprache ? Hier spricht man Deutsch.
Kultur ? Was ist Kultur ? Schulen ? Hier gibt es deutsche Schulen.
Nein, hier wird kein Deutsch gesprochen, hier spricht man Denglisch. Ihr habt nicht mal eine eigene Sprache. Und das du nicht weisst, was Kultur ist, ist nicht verwunderlich, da ihr auch keine habt, weil ihr alles aufgegeben habt. Ihr lehnt alles ab, was Euch deutsch erscheint, von der Volksmusik bis zum Schweinsbraten. Ihr habt auch keine Religion, eure Kirchen werden von Jahr zu Jahr leerer. Ihr habt keine Geschichte, außer 12 dunkle Jahre und einer Wiedervereinigung 40 Jahre später. Jeder durchschnittliche türkische Hauptschüler hat mehr Identität als ein durchschnittlicher deutscher Akademiker. Ihr habt nichts anzubieten, in das sich jemand integrieren könnte. Nichts, außer einem Grundgesetz und das euch nicht mehr zu eurem Land einfällt als ein Gesetzbuch, zeigt wie emotionslos und abgestumpft ihr seid. Es ist absolut nicht erstrebenswert sich bei euch zu integrieren, denn keiner will so werden wie ihr. Ihr habt auch keinen Anspruch darauf, dass sich Migranten integrieren. Den einzigen Anspruch, den ihr an Migranten stellen könnt, ist der, dass sie sich an eure Gesetze halten. Wenn sie das tun, dann haben die Migranten auch einen Anspruch an euch und zwar den, dass ihr sie in Ruhe lasst mit eurem nervtötenden Integrationsgeblubber.
See also:
1. History of an alliance...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KJ15Ak01.html
2. ... but now...
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133843
3. Joint ventures in Space Turkey - Russia.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090...nd_russia_rise
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Turkey is not just about "entry-non entry" in the EU.
It is about a great people, very concious of itself.
I don't know how is that many Europeans fail to see how interesting the future of Turkey would be.
Regards.
Last edited by Sirius2b; 15-04-10 at 22:58.
Women on the Front Line - Turkey: Killing in the Name of Honour Part of the series: Women on the Front Line
More to view/download/share: links
This programme contains sensitive content, teachers are advised to watch in full before showing to pupils
An investigation into why women in Turkey, are being forced into suicide in an attempt to cover up "honour" killings.
According to UNFPA, as many as 5,000 women a year are murdered in the name of honour.
In Turkey, "honour" killings now carry a mandatory life sentence but there is disturbing evidence that tougher sentencing is leading to an increase in forced suicides.
Introduced by Annie Lennox and shot by all-women crews, this series tells the personal stories of the courageous women who have survived abuses and now want their voices to be heard.
Source: http://www.teachers.tv/videos/46251
Amnesty International on Turkey: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/turkey
Kurdish human rights activist condemned in Turkey
The MP from banned in 1994 pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party Leyla Zana is sentenced to 3-years’ imprisonment on a charge of “propaganda about terrorist organization Kurdistan Workers’ Party.”
Zana and her lawyer did not attend the closing court session of Diyarbakir 5th High Criminal Court, when the verdict was read out.
Earlier, in April 2008 she was sentenced to 2-years imprisonment by Turkish authorities for allegedly “spreading terrorist propaganda” by saying “Kurds have three leaders namely Massoud Barzani, Celal Talebani and Abdullah Ocalan.”
Thereafter, in December 2008, Zana was sentenced to 10 more years by the Turkish court, saying she violated Turkish Penal code and Turkish anti-terror law in 9 different speeches.
Source: http://news.am/en/news/18606.html
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Enough said... Turkey has no place in Europe.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7025294.stmWomen condemn Turkey constitution
By Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, Istanbul
The Islamic headscarf is worn by 60% of Turkish women
Women's groups in Turkey have condemned a new draft constitution, saying it sets the country back years in terms of gender equality.
A new civilian constitution is being prepared to replace the current one, introduced after a 1980 military coup.
The document describes women as a vulnerable group needing protection.
The proposed constitution has already sparked fierce debate with a clause to allow women to attend university wearing the Islamic headscarf.
Speaking on Tuesday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan assured critics the new draft constitution will reflect the values and needs of all groups of society.
'Patriarchal society'
More than 80 women's groups have come together to voice strong opposition to the draft constitution, calling it a major step backwards for equal rights.
The current constitution in Turkey obliges the government to ensure equality for all - a clause that women's groups fought hard to include.
The new draft removes that, describing women instead as a vulnerable group in need of special protection.
Women's rights activist Selen Lermioglu calls that worrying proof that Turkey is still a highly patriarchal society.
"If the government accepts this it will show their ideology and mindset about women and men - that women are a group that needs to be protected," she said.
PM Erdogan wants to replace the 1980 constitution
"No we're not, we don't need protection. We need equality and ask for that, not protection.
"If all laws and the whole constitution is prepared with this mindset, it can have a really bad impact," she added, pointing out that the draft was drawn up by men.
Pressure from women's groups helped force major reforms of Turkey's civil code in 2002.
A clause was removed then that identified the man as the head of the household, and obliged a wife to seek permission to go out to work.
Women's rights activists see this draft constitution as a return to that mentality.
They warn it could allow a man to deny his wife the right to work, for example, on the premise he is protecting her.
And they fear such an argument could well win favour with Turkey's conservative, male-dominated judiciary.
The group says it has not formed a common position yet on the issue of the Islamic headscarf, worn by more than 60% of Turkish woman but banned in state offices, schools and universities.
The government wants to change the constitution to ensure girls who cover their heads can attend university.
Women's activists, like the wider society here, are divided on that.
So far the new constitution has been drafted behind closed doors: now women's groups are demanding to be consulted.
They want to make this process an opportunity to push for more rights, not fewer, including a clause insisting on a temporary quota for women, to eliminate discrimination in all areas.
They argue that is the only way to lift Turkey from close to the bottom of the list in Europe on gender equality.
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Two videos...
Turkey Accession to EU: A Challenge...
http://www.cornell.edu/video/?videoID=136
Turkey Foreign Policy IN GENERAL...
http://www.cfr.org/publication/21770...n+Site+Feed%29
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...f-1655373.htmlWomen told: 'You have dishonoured your family, please kill yourself'
As Turkey cracks down on 'honour killings', women are now told to commit suicide
By Ramita Navai in Batman, eastern Turkey
Friday, 27 March 2009
This family of sisters said there had been an honour killing in their village, in one of the most patriarchal areas of Kurdish Turkey, and they live in constant fear.
When Elif's father told her she had to kill herself in order to spare him from a prison sentence for her murder, she considered it long and hard. "I loved my father so much, I was ready to commit suicide for him even though I hadn't done anything wrong," the 18-year-old said. "But I just couldn't go through with it. I love life too much."
All Elif had done was simply decline the offer of an arranged marriage with an older man, telling her parents she wanted to continue her education. That act of disobedience was seen as bringing dishonour on her whole family – a crime punishable by death. "I managed to escape. When I was at school, a few girls I knew were killed by their families in the name of honour – one of them for simply receiving a text message from a boy," Elif said.
So-called "honour killings" in Turkey have reached record levels. According to government figures, there are more than 200 a year – half of all the murders committed in the country. Now, in a sinister twist, comes the emergence of "honour suicides". The growing phenomenon has been linked to reforms to Turkey's penal code in 2005. That introduced mandatory life sentences for honour killers, whereas in the past, killers could receive a reduced sentence claiming provocation. Soon after the law was passed, the numbers of female suicides started to rocket.
Elif has spent the past eight months on the run, living in hiding and in fear. Her uncles and other relatives are looking to hunt her down, for dishonour is seen as a stain that can only be cleansed by death. One of the women's shelters where Elif has stayed has been raided by armed family members.
Elif is from Batman, a grey, bleak town in the south-east of Turkey nicknamed "Suicide City". Three quarters of all suicides here are committed by women – nearly everywhere else in the world, men are three times more likely to kill themselves. "I think most of these suicide cases are forced. There are just too many of them, it's too suspicious. But they're almost impossible to investigate," said Mustafa Peker, Batman's chief prosecutor.
Wearing tight clothes or talking to a man who is not a relative is sometimes all it takes to blacken the family name. Mr Peker said women who are told to kill themselves are usually given one of three options – a noose, a gun or rat poison. They are then locked in a room until the job is done.
A woman's fate is usually decided during a "family council", when the extended family meets to discuss breaches of honour. In these meetings, it is agreed how the victim must be killed. If it is not to be a forced suicide, a killer is chosen. The youngest member of the family is often ordered to kill, in the belief they will be treated more leniently if caught.
Mehmet was 17 when he was handed a gun and told he would have to kill his stepmother and her lover. "I didn't want to do it. I was so young and so scared," he said. Mehmet ran away, but his family tracked him down and warned him his own life would be in danger if he refused to kill.
He shot dead his stepmother's lover, but his stepmother survived the attack. He was given a two-and-a-half- year prison sentence.
"There were many other 'honour killers' in prison and we were treated with respect, even by the prison guards," Mehmet said.
Most honour killings happen in the Kurdish region, a barren land ravaged by years of war and oppression. Rural communities here are ruled under a strict feudal, patriarchal system. But as Kurds have fled the fighting between separatist rebels and Turkey's government, the crime is spreading across the country into its cities and towns. According to a recent government report, there is now one honour killing a week in Istanbul.
"Families who move here are suddenly faced with modern, secular Turkey," said Vildan Yirmibesoglu, the head of Istanbul's department of human rights. "This clash of cultures is making the situation worse as the pressure on women to behave conservatively is become more acute. And of course there are more temptations."
Ms Yirmibesoglu believes that the entrenched belief in the notion of honour – at all levels of society – is impeding any progress. "Honour killings aren't always properly investigated because some police and prosecutors share the same views as the honour killers," she said. "For things to change, police, prosecutors and even judges need to be educated on gender equality."
I think we all remember this horrible case...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...d-alive-turkeyTurkish girl, 16, buried alive 'for talking to boys'
Death reopens debate over 'honour' killings in Turkey, which account for half of all the country's murders
The hole where a 16-year-old girl was buried alive by her relatives in Adiyaman, southeastern Turkey Photograph: HO/REUTERS
The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Wednesday 24 February 2010
The article below reported the arrest of relatives on suspicion of killing a teenager for having friendships with boys. More than 200 such killings take place each year, said the piece, "accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey". According to Eurostat, Turkey's yearly murder rate averaged 6.1 per 100,000 population between 2005 and 2007 (the latest figures), meaning that the 200 are actually set against an annual total of about 4,400.
Turkish police have recovered the body of a 16-year-old girl they say was buried alive by relatives in an "honour" killing carried out as punishment for talking to boys.The girl, who has been identified only by the initials MM, was found in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-metre hole dug under a chicken pen outside her home in Kahta, in the south-eastern province of Adiyaman.
Police made the discovery in December after a tip-off from an informant, the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet reported on its website.
The girl had previously been reported missing.
The informant told the police she had been killed following a family "council" meeting.
Her father and grandfather are said to have been arrested and held in custody pending trial. It is unclear whether they have been charged. The girl's mother was arrested but was later released.
Media reports said the father had told relatives he was unhappy that his daughter – one of nine children – had male friends. The grandfather is said to have beaten her for having relations with the opposite sex.
A postmortem examination revealed large amounts of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she had been alive and conscious while being buried. Her body showed no signs of bruising.
The discovery will reopen the emotive debate in Turkey about "honour" killings, which are particularly prevalent in the impoverished south-east.
Official figures have indicated that more than 200 such killings take place each year, accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey.
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They have no place in Europe, they have a medieval mentality
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Latest news: Two-day-old girl killed in 'honour killing
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-...honour-killingTurkish police on Friday detained an unmarried mother and six other people near Istanbul for their suspected role in the so-called "honour killing" of a 2-day-old baby girl, state news agency Anatolian said.
The baby was suffocated by her grandmother after the family learned the 25-year-old mother became pregnant out of wedlock, Anatolian said.
"My family decided to kill my baby," the mother told the police, according to Anatolian. "My 55-year-old mother choked the baby with a cloth. Then, my brothers buried the baby in a hole in the garden and covered the hole with cement."
Police found the body after receiving an anonymous phone call.
Among those detained were also a doctor and the doctor's secretary, They allegedly had agreed not to register the baby's birth in return for an undisclosed amount of money.
The baby's father is doing his military service and was not involved in the incident.
"Honour killings," or crimes carried out against women seen to have tainted the family's name, are not uncommon in mainly Muslim Turkey, particularly in poor and rural areas.
The European Union, which Turkey has applied to join, has repeatedly urged Ankara to take a tougher stance against such crimes.
This didn't even happen in East Turkey but close to Constantinople which belongs to Europe geographically! Constantinople is lately flooded by people who move there from all over Turkey. The city has already lost its western identity...
Is this the "European" Capital of Culture 2010???
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This sort of thing happens far too often in Turkey. It is truly sickening...
Hearthbreaking.
But according to some people we should give more importance to Turkey's economic future than to this kind of turkish uncivilized "traditions". Like money comes first than human rights.
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Undoubtly tragic the case of the little baby murdered... and similar cases.
It will be good that the Turkish goverment do something so that those things will not repeat.
However, my humble view is that Turkey should be judged as a whole and not for those lamentable cases, due to lack of modern education of some people in remote provinces.
Latin America will be always open to a respectful relationship with the Turkish people, and noble and dignified P.M. like Erdogan.
Precisely, it will be good that while the Turkish have so undoublty national and patriotic government to increase trade between our countries...
Erdogan in Mexico: "Alliance of Civilizations".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyPLwLvC2-k
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=347427
Undoubtly Mexico should have more relations with respectful and progressive countries such as Turkey...
Regards.
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P.S.
In Venezuela, people admire very much Erdogan... it will be good that the P.M. goes there in his next trip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z2b6DV22IY&feature=related
Besides... Ergogan is a Turkish politician, and the most important for him is the opinion of the Turkish people, that adore him...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD6lFW-JbPc&NR=1
Regards.
Last edited by Sirius2b; 18-04-10 at 00:48.
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The problem is that this happened in Constantinople not in the far east in some remote village... I was really surprised when I realized that the location of the murder was Constantinople.
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Yes I noticed and read what you said, which was...
So, in reality, the problem continues to be not so much a Constantinople problem, but the education of rural Anatolia... from which people move with all their cultural bagage to more developed areas.This didn't even happen in East Turkey but close to Constantinople which belongs to Europe geographically! Constantinople is lately flooded by people who move there from all over Turkey. The city has already lost its western identity...
Is this the "European" Capital of Culture 2010???
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On the other hand, @Mariane, I would not critisize you for anything you will say about the Turks... for it is understandably that with the history between Turkey and Greece, including the Cyprus it is most than natural than some Greek do not think the best of Turks...
And even so, a very strong commercial relationship has been built among Greace and Turkey, and the fact that the Greek understand better the Turks that all the other Europeans, and their own national interests... now we have that recently the European country that most insisted in the admission of Turkey, is precisely Greece...
http://www.eurotopics.net/en/dienste...s-EU-accessionGreece wants Turkey's EU accession
Athens actually wants its Turkish neighbour to join the EU because the advantages outweight the disadvantages, the conservative daily Kathimerini writes: "Greece is perhaps the only country that really wants a European Turkey.
I tell you, I won't critisize your positions or views.
On the other hand, there are some people that opose Turkey solely for psychological reasons, completedly disconnected from the real issue.
(Of course I am not talking about Britain, USA, Germany, France, etc... that have their real own reasons to either opose or support Turkey entrance).
Regards.
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