What make European similar compared to other countries

nekosasori said:
@bossel:

Maciamo's sentence quoted fully was the following (italics added by me for emphasis):
Sorry, I missed that one.



on the dole
Nice to learn something new here. Didn't know that expression before. Thanks!


Regarding the welfare system & its problems, I agree with you. I don't know the particular Irish situation, but abuse happens everywhere. That's human. It is strange though, when some people are paid in order not to look for a job. Hmm...

Here in Germany the dole :) is usually higher than social welfare & you really can make a decent living on it. Social welfare is generally lower, but since you don't have to pay for some essential stuff (e.g. washing machine) yourself, it should be enough as well.

Abuse is also common, sometimes it even hits the news. As in the case of "Florida-Rolf", who spent his life in Florida from 1900 ? per month (exorbitant high amount of money, IMO, when I was younger my family lived from social welfare, with the 4 of us we didn't get half of that).
 
bossel said:
If you disagree, why don't you try to disprove Maciamo's points? Getting personal is not really the way to show that he's wrong. More to the contrary.

Opinion can't be disproved.

Matthew, you visibly didn't understand the purpose of this thread. I never intended to praise or criticise one country or another.

Further, Europeans tend to be more intellectual, dare I say any other people in the world.

really care about money and "easy entertainment" (TV, movies, celebrities, sex, sports...).

There is certainly a similarity between European diets, as Europeans are rarely fat, and when they are, almost never the way Americans can get.

You're right, that isn't criticism, those are outright insults. If you want to take the high ground and have a discussion, perhaps you should try to tone down the holier-than-thou attitude you've displayed here.

You may be right, you may be wrong, but you aren't going to win any friends by insulting entire countries, and telling us that we are all just stereotypes to you.
 
This is really an interesting thread, would be nice to have more none Europeans joining the discussion though.

Well, I must say I cannot agree with all observations made by Maciamo.

History: While it is true that most Europeans share a deeper interest in history (thank you Rachel, really interesting) they often tend to idealise the history of their own country (?Greeks invented democracy!?, the Brits modern Literature, the Germans classical music and the like). It seems that they forget how interrelated their history really is. So, even though there is a shared history, Europeans do not always share this feeling of being European. That might be different among ERASMUS Students, but ask some villagers in Sweden and Greece about their common features?

Cuisine: I really don`t think that European Cuisine is that similar. If you go to a ?Italian Style? pasta place in London, you`ll get to find londonized Italian dishes. Same goes for Chicken Tika and so on. Having spend much time Greece and in England, I think there are actually huge differences in the food culture. I?d say it depends more on the class of restaurant you?re dining in. Of course you can find top cuisine in every major city, but the local food is completely different; and that?s what still most of the people eat.

Fat People: Well, as I?ve heard nearly 70 % of European are overweight, having 10% of them being obese. If I look to Britain, Germany and France that is definitely the case. Only in the Mediterranean countries people seem to be slimmer.

Clothing: Have you never seen German, Dutch, Swedish and British tourists in Spain or Greece? They might not dress as silly as the common American (Socks and Flip-Flops). But I have seen so many of them being rejected to enter a Greek restaurant because wearing Bermuda shorts. And those tank tops?..

I think at the very end, there is not much difference between Americans, Europeans and Australians as long as (and THIS is the crucial point), their educational and social background is similar.
 
BeNippon said:
Fat People: Well, as I?ve heard nearly 70 % of European are overweight, having 10% of them being obese. If I look to Britain, Germany and France that is definitely the case. Only in the Mediterranean countries people seem to be slimmer.

That may depend where you live. Personally, I'd say that where I grew up only 5 to 10% of the people under 50 were overweight, and about 1% really obese. I found there were more people over 50 pverweight, but that is for biological reasons (less energy, so less activity => take up weight).

I think there are more overweight people in Germany, but rather stocky and massive (like Helmut Kohl) rather than really fat. When I was studying in Berlin, I noticed there were indeed more overweight people, but still no comparison to Americans (or even Australians).
 
Well, here's a non-European weighing in on the subject. I agree with everything Maciamo has posted on this subject.

Education:

Education in America is sorely lacking compared with that of European countries. When I was in high school, I remember discussing the differences in education with some of our exchange students from Belgium, France, and Norway, especially with respect to learning foreign languages. In America, a foreign language is taught maybe 2-4 years, while in European countries English alone was taught for 8-12 years. In fact, some of the European exchange students understood the English language better than most of us Americans! Years later I learned that the same was true for students in Hong Kong--they studied English for 12 years. Yet America continues to place little emphasis on learning a foreign language. Pretty arrogant, if you ask me.

Sadly, half of this country is now functionally illiterate, meaning they can read simple things but nothing complicated. That's pretty bad! Our public schools are lacking in financial assistance, but if you want to send your child to some religious private school, then our government will help you out with a school voucher. Some private schools are very good. I was educated through mostly private education, so my education was much better than those who attended public schools. (Obviously, this can depend on the individual school in either case.) But not all private schools are good, especially when the students are force-fed religious dogma at the same time. Many parents feel that public education is not up to par, yet they don't want to send their kids to the local nutbar fundamentalist school either, so they choose to home school their children instead.

Higher education in America is also extremely expensive these days. It now costs approximately $80,000 per year to attend Stanford University here in California, and I don't even want to think of what it costs to attend Harvard or Yale. Most people are stuck paying off student loans for what seems like forever, especially if they happen to go on to graduate school, law school, or med school. It's insane. Meanwhile, there is less and less public assistance for education.

Dietary Habits:

America is full of obese people, and the percentage of obesity is far greater here than in any European country. I found this study especially interesting with respect to this issue:

The French Diet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/pages/10/1671_51408.htm

In my opinion, there are big differences between Americans and Europeans, and I have always favored the European lifestyle and intellectualism over that of Americans, not to mention the wonderful rich culture, history, and cuisine of Europe compared to America.

Just my two cents as an American ... :)
 
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Maciamo said:
That may depend where you live. Personally, I'd say that where I grew up only 5 to 10% of the people under 50 were overweight, and about 1% really obese.
BeNippon has a point here. I didn't want to believe it at first, but I looked it up. Although obesity rates are higher in the US, the difference is not as great as one might think. In Europe it's 10-25 %, in the US 25-35 % (depending on the quoted study). But the Mediterranean does not necessarily do better than Northern Europe. I think, Greece (!) has the highest obesity rate in Europe.
 
This is very interesting, as always, but I would like to say that, in my opinion, it was a little bit idealized. Since I grew up in France I will use this country for my examples, first since it has been the latest subject, diet and obesity. Bossel got the facts just above and I agree, people in France and other countries are getting bigger and bigger but it is also true that you never see the kind of obesity you can see in the US in Europe. There are obese people but I have yet to see people with so much fat that it is swinging from on side to the other of the body. Anyway this is not the most interesting thing, for me the big disillusion would be concerning education and cultural heritage.
It is true that education in Europe is much, much better than in the US. I came here to go to the university and guess what? I'm going back to Europe next year because I want to see the difference for myself, and the counselor told that in sciences European universities only accept students with two years of science because that's about the size of the gap between Europe and the US. Furthermore I was amazed by the SAT which is used for entrance in university without exaggerating, a good student after a year of high school in France could ace the math part and do better on the English part than most American. However, there is a downside to this, the gap is not getting bigger; education in France is not as good as it used to be, teachers are not motivated anymore and students are the reason. Maciamo spoke of the desire to study for its intrinsic value but I don't think it's a trend anymore. Most students are discouraged by the fact that a diploma won't get you a job in France, and there are scholars doing some simple jobs but not by choice, underemployment (employed below your level of qualification) is a serious concern in France.
Concerning languages, especially in France, student have never been good in my short life span, they get lots of English but there are very few who can really use it unless they have some reason, like parents, beside you do have to take a second language for 6 years but again with very pour results. Moreover the techniques seriously lack efficiency, but this is not a generality, northern European countries do a better job at that with a large portion of the population speaking at least English. The cultural heritage is also in danger, because this generation of student isn't that interested, they are just proud to have it because they think it makes them better. In France they have to have special days with free entrance in museums and such to have some kind of public, they even sold discount tickets for books, theatre... in high school to catch students' interest in culture. These initiatives are very good ideas and successful to some extent but, we didn't need such initiative just a decade ago. To conclude I would say that Europe is still a leader as far as history, culture and intellect goes but sadly they are losing ground, to what? The American decadent culture, the good thing is that the European intellectual leaders are aware of that and fight the tendency and even if they can only save a few thousands among the younger generation it will be enough. You can call this elitism, but isn't that what we should thrive for? (you can discuss the role of the Grandes Ecoles on that subject, they produce the finest students in France and in the world but are highly selective?)
I will just add a few other things concerning religion, and economics. A study in the US showed that 80% of the people surveyed didn't believe in the theory of evolution, how many of those do you think would rather believe in the Genesis from the bible. Europe is moving away from religion because they know it is not needed anymore. Religion was meant to justify and explain things that were troubling humans and also give a structure for society; both these things are now obsolete with the advent of science and stable democratic governments. Although this should be true in the US I believe they don't have enough historical background yet to be rid of such an important part of their short history, after all started by some fundamentalist freaks. But to come back to Europe Nietzsche saw it a century ago; God is dead in the heart of most people there.
About economics, I will just say that even though, countries in Europe have a very good system for education and healthcare, they won't be able to keep it much longer thanks to the aging population. In France there were some massive demonstrations by teachers when the government tried to make the retirement age a little higher and this kind of things happen as soon as the government tries to touch the privileges of the public services workers, as a consequence the government will be confronted with larger and larger expenses to keep the system running, and France and Germany already are in trouble because their annual deficit doesn?t fit the EU requirements which is 3% of the GDP, they are around more like 4%, we always point at the US when it comes to debt but in that case the American deficit for 2004 is lower. But this is a global problem, Japan, Europe, North America and all developed countries have a problem with aging population.
I think I?m done, I will end by saying that despite the fact I didn?t like living in France for personal reasons and because it?s hard to fit in when you?re not part of the culture, I appreciate the fact that I was brought up there and now I?m even considering going back (not to France though) but I guess you can?t appreciate the things you have until they are taken away from you.

Rachel said:
In France to preserve and protect the traditions and experience of centuries of French cheesemaking, the AOC (Appellation d?Origine Controlee) system was established, as it has been for wine.

Do you know that this AOC is sadly losing its reputation. I don't know for cheese but some wine producers who had the AOC, cheated and made modifications to their wine, The reason is that France used to be the first producer of wine but now their is strong competition from Australia, California... so French producers have a hard time keeping up and are tempted to sacrifiy quality.

I've just realized that I didn't even answer the original post concerning the link between European country. I'll be short, In my opinion, many Europeans are more conscerned about their own country and even have some grudges against others. For exemple the French still despise the Germans for what they did in WWII, I don't want to make a generalization but you still hear such words as: Bosh, Nazis and other pejorative noms when talking about Germans. There still is some kind of competitions between the countries, just look at a soccer games, people kill each others over this matter. But I won't deny that there is a connection thanks to history, culture and now the EU and the Euro (a great idea in my opinion).
 
Legato said:
Bossel got the facts just above and I agree, people in France and other countries are getting bigger and bigger but it is also true that you never see the kind of obesity you can see in the US in Europe. There are obese people but I have yet to see people with so much fat that it is swinging from on side to the other of the body.

Yes ! There is obesity and obesity. The US has a kind of excessive obesity completely inexistent in Europe (except the UK, hmm).

It is true that education in Europe is much, much better than in the US. I came here to go to the university and guess what? I'm going back to Europe next year because I want to see the difference for myself, and the counselor told that in sciences European universities only accept students with two years of science because that's about the size of the gap between Europe and the US. Furthermore I was amazed by the SAT which is used for entrance in university without exaggerating, a good student after a year of high school in France could ace the math part and do better on the English part than most American.

Happy to har you confirm. I haven't studied in the US but many of my friends have as exchaneg students, and could easily compare. But again, just checking the general knowledge of the world, or history or languages of the average Americans is enough.

However, there is a downside to this, the gap is not getting bigger; education in France is not as good as it used to be, teachers are not motivated anymore and students are the reason. Maciamo spoke of the desire to study for its intrinsic value but I don't think it's a trend anymore.

I know, that is true. But still better than the US or Japan.

Most students are discouraged by the fact that a diploma won't get you a job in France, and there are scholars doing some simple jobs but not by choice, underemployment (employed below your level of qualification) is a serious concern in France.

Very serious problem indeed. What Americans and Japanese have done much better is caring about making money, rather than knowledge or culture for itself. I feel that both Americans and Japanese (especially the latter) are obsessed with making money in a way I have rarely seen in Europe. France is one of the worst case, as even being a salesman in France is looked down.

Concerning languages, especially in France, student have never been good in my short life span, they get lots of English but there are very few who can really use it unless they have some reason, like parents, beside you do have to take a second language for 6 years but again with very pour results.

French people usually aren't motivated to learn other languages because they still hope that French be the world's lingua franca. But even being among the worst in Europe, French people are still better at languages than Americans and Japanese. Interestingly, it is usual for Belgians or Swiss (even French speakers) to learn 2 or 3 or 4 languages at school. I think nobody learns only one foreign language in these countries. In Japan, it is not even possible to learn another language than English until university !

Moreover the techniques seriously lack efficiency, but this is not a generality, northern European countries do a better job at that with a large portion of the population speaking at least English.

I agree. The problem with Latin countries is that their approach of learning languages is too theoretical and concentrates too much on grammar and little nuances that only discourage students and doesn't help them speak. Probably a heritage of learning Latin. ;)

The cultural heritage is also in danger, because this generation of student isn't that interested, they are just proud to have it because they think it makes them better. In France they have to have special days with free entrance in museums and such to have some kind of public, they even sold discount tickets for books, theatre... in high school to catch students' interest in culture. These initiatives are very good ideas and successful to some extent but, we didn't need such initiative just a decade ago.

At least French and most other European people are concerned about the kids going to the museums, theatres and classcial music concerts. I know because when I was 16-17, one of my teachers forced all his students to have a "cultural diary". That not only meant going to the theatre, museum, etc. minimum 10x during the length of the schoolyear, but write a review for each event, and the quality of the review would play a part in determining whether we could go to the next year or not (other criteria were book reviews and 5-page essays on subject imposed by the teacher). Try telling Americans or Japanese that they will not be able to complete highschool because they can't write a proper review about 10 cultural events in a year, in addition of passing hard, over-theoretical foreign language test, + science, maths, history and geography, of course (all of which have higher levels in Europe).

...the good thing is that the European intellectual leaders are aware of that and fight the tendency and even if they can only save a few thousands among the younger generation it will be enough. You can call this elitism, but isn't that what we should thrive for? (you can discuss the role of the Grandes Ecoles on that subject, they produce the finest students in France and in the world but are highly selective?)

Typical French reasoning. But elitism is one of the similarity between France and the US (and UK).

I will just add a few other things concerning religion, and economics. A study in the US showed that 80% of the people surveyed didn't believe in the theory of evolution, how many of those do you think would rather believe in the Genesis from the bible.

It seems obvious that there is a relationship between strong religiosity and poor academic results. I have never met anybody who "didn't believe" in the theory of evolution in Europe. That's just unthinkable.

Europe is moving away from religion because they know it is not needed anymore. Religion was meant to justify and explain things that were troubling humans and also give a structure for society; both these things are now obsolete with the advent of science and stable democratic governments.

Again, a huge gap between Europe and America. And here I am talking about continents.

Although this should be true in the US I believe they don't have enough historical background yet to be rid of such an important part of their short history, after all started by some fundamentalist freaks. But to come back to Europe Nietzsche saw it a century ago; God is dead in the heart of most people there.

It will certainly take a few centuries for America to catch up. :eek:kashii:

I think I?m done, I will end by saying that despite the fact I didn?t like living in France for personal reasons and because it?s hard to fit in when you?re not part of the culture, I appreciate the fact that I was brought up there and now I?m even considering going back (not to France though) but I guess you can?t appreciate the things you have until they are taken away from you.

Same for me. I am glad to have had a French-style education to develop the intellet and critical sense, but that would just be to annoying to live in French-speaking Europe, with people who argue about all and nothing all the time and don't care about your feelings if that's not rational (in their opinion). Good for forum discussion, but so irritating. :D

For exemple the French still despise the Germans for what they did in WWII, I don't want to make a generalization but you still hear such words as: Bosh, Nazis and other pejorative noms when talking about Germans. There still is some kind of competitions between the countries, just look at a soccer games, people kill each others over this matter.

That's why the EU was founded, in a hope to remove border and create a European identity. Learning our neighbours' languages and studying in other EU countries will be the key to creating this European identity and mutual respect.
 
I saw on Euronews a study about whether Europeans and American share the same values.

It appears that in international matters, Americans are more concern about terrorism and nuclear threats (from Iran, notably), while Europeans worry more about climate change.

As for their own role in spreading democracy around the world :

Euronews said:
Finally 71% of Europeans think that Europe must promote democracy in the world, less than half of Americans believe that is their country's role. And they approach it differently, Tertrais says: "The Americans tends to see their mission as spreading democracy throughout the world and that is the US political model of democracy. The European view is more that the European Union, because of the nature of its institutions, is in a better position to do that and it employs, what one might call, less forceful methods."
 
[FONT=&quot]There are some things that I think that America does better than Europe:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
  • Better air quality. ...
  • Universities. ...
  • More diverse climate. ...
  • Assimilating of Muslim minorities. ...
  • A much stricter asylum vetting system than many European countries due apart from the UK.
[/FONT]
 

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