R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[Vallicanus]

The Sea Peoples were not your Nordicist wet dream,sorry.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The Sea Peoples were not your Nordicist wet dream,sorry.

Urnfielders were originally from Hungary/Slovakia/Poland not Nordic. The only wet dream is claiming they were somehow both Nuragic and Aegen people haha

I showed you the actual symbolisms they carried, if you want to deny the links that's your problem

 

[Vallicanus]

Urnfielders were originally from Hungary/Slovakia/Poland not Nordic. The only wet dream is claiming they were somehow both Nuragic and Aegen people haha

I showed you the actual symbolisms they carried, if you want to deny the links that's your problem

Believe what you like.
The Sea Peoples were a mixed group of adventurers who came from the central and eastern Mediterranean. Period.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Believe what you like.
The Sea Peoples were a mixed group of adventurers who came from the central and eastern Mediterranean. Period.

Haha "period". Based on nothing, go back to Apricity

Here is where proto Urnfield started -
"Chronologically, it appears that the switch from inhumation burial under barrows to cremation burial in cemeteries as the dominant mortuary rite occurred first in east-central Europe. From there it spread west and north into Germany and Poland and south into Italy. Finally, in the first decades of the last millennium b.c., it is found in France and northern Spain."

This could be due to Hallstatt emerging from west of the Urnfield core -
"Many of the Urnfield fortified settlements of central Europe were destroyed after a very short period of occupation."

Or maybe emergence of proto Thracians expanding north.

 

[Pax Augusta]

That's fine, if we get ancient DNA from Villanovans to prove a strong connection to MBA/LBA Hungary/Poland etc we can confirm genetic affinity with proto Urnfield. I doubt proto Urnfielders settled everywhere they went in big numbers, they enforced their culture/religion on the locals. Those that revolted were destroyed (Tollense, Mycenea, Terramare etc)

Here we go again, you don't even know the basics. Villanovan is a typically Etruscan Iron Age material culture, considered the earliest phase of the Etruscans in the Iron Age (and we already know that the uniparental markers of the Etruscans show a correlation with the previous Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe, while we know little about the Urnfield culture genetically, since they practiced incineration).

Proto-Villanovan is a supranational material culture of the Final Bronze Age, and can be found in the ancestors of numerous peoples of Preroman Italy. They are named so for a series of events (the Villanovan was discovered before the Protovillanovan), and the names have never been changed, but they are not interchangeable names, and for decades now it has no longer been believed that only the Villanovan culture has been preceded by the Protovillanovan culture. Villanovan and Protovillanovan are not peoples or ethnicities. Neither are Urnfielders or other material cultures of the late Bronze Age.

 

[Vallicanus]

Haha "period". Based on nothing, go back to Apricity

Here is where proto Urnfield started -
"Chronologically, it appears that the switch from inhumation burial under barrows to cremation burial in cemeteries as the dominant mortuary rite occurred first in east-central Europe. From there it spread west and north into Germany and Poland and south into Italy. Finally, in the first decades of the last millennium b.c., it is found in France and northern Spain."

This could be due to Hallstatt emerging from west of the Urnfield core -
"Many of the Urnfield fortified settlements of central Europe were destroyed after a very short period of occupation."

Or maybe emergence of proto Thracians expanding north.

You need to read some books on the Sea Peoples instead of empty nonsense on Youtube or some amateur podcast.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

You need to read some books on the Sea Peoples instead of empty nonsense on Youtube or some amateur podcast.

I showed you ancient depictions of Sea Peoples though and the symbolism looks similar to Urnfield

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Here we go again, you don't even know the basics. Villanovan is a typically Etruscan Iron Age material culture, considered the earliest phase of the Etruscans in the Iron Age (and we already know that the uniparental markers of the Etruscans show a correlation with the previous Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe, while we know little about the Urnfield culture genetically, since they practiced incineration).

Proto-Villanovan is a supranational material culture of the Final Bronze Age, and can be found in the ancestors of numerous peoples of Preroman Italy. They are named so for a series of events (the Villanovan was discovered before the Protovillanovan), and the names have never been changed, but they are not interchangeable names, and for decades now it has no longer been believed that only the Villanovan culture has been preceded by the Protovillanovan culture. Villanovan and Protovillanovan are not peoples or ethnicities. Neither are Urnfielders or other material cultures of the late Bronze Age.

Yes Etruscans had mostly Bell Beaker ydna and that's why I also think Terramare were post Bell Beakers as they overran the region in early bronze age. Meanwhile the Urnfield Tollense warriors were completely different to Bell Beaker autosomal profiles even after mixing a bit with post Bell Beakers in Germany. But we can wait for ancient DNA and see how much proto Urnfield genetic input Terramare had or if it was just a cultural input.

A definite difference between Terramare and Etruscans is that Terramare spoke Indo European while Etruscans didn't, they spoke an ANF language like Basques do. Etruscans had some G2a and J2b l283, we know G2a was from ANF, could it be that J2b l283 was also? It looks like these lineages that became the minority (ydna) somehow kept their language after the R1b influx

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

To the guy who claimed Urnfield didn't have leadership or a central government, no idea how you can think that when 5,000 people were assembled for war and some were recruited from far -

"Supervising national archaeologist Detlef Jantzen claims that this is the oldest archaeologically verifiable battlefield in Europe and one of the 50 most important discovery sites worldwide. "The Tollense site has a dimension that no one in our area could have thought of," he said. "Most people thought that ancient societies were peaceful and that Bronze Age men were interested in things like trade," said Helle Vankild, an archaeologist at Aarhus University. "[...] Few people talk about war." he commented. A group of 5,000 fighters was assembled, organized, fed, briefed, and led into battle. Researchers at the site say this was an amazing feat for the time, and was likely made possible by the central government."

Here is more proof -
"In southern Moravia in the Czech Republic, there are values between 0.710 and 0.715 reported (Smr čka et al. 2006) so that this area might also be a candidate for the origins of the non-local group. There are some areas with similar values in the eastern Mittelgebirge and the Ore Mountains. There are zones of similar values in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg (Knipper 2012) although generally not in areas of substantial prehistoric population. Although it is not possible to pinpoint the origins of the non-local dead, the bulk of the evidence points toward Bohemia as a good possibility. Perhaps the most striking result of the iso-topic study is that the non-local combatants are not from northern Germany and must have traveled long distance to reach the battlefield at Tollense."

Multi-isotope proveniencing of human remains from a Bronze Age battlefield in the Tollense Valley in northeast Germany

Although the Bronze Age is best known for its remarkable metal weapons, there is little evidence of conflict. Traumatic wounds in human skeletal remains are rare, and there have been few recognized scenes of warfare such as those known from later

www.academia.edu

Notice that this line and it's descendents still appearing in Baden-Wurttemberg -

I-L621 YTree

www.yfull.com

Here is something that confirms Villanovans had cultural links with Urnfield, notice the sunbird ship which you see in Sea Peoples depictions - https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Urnfiel...o_fontanili,_tomba_AA1_a_pozzo,_750_ac_ca.jpg

 

[Pax Augusta]

A definite difference between Terramare and Etruscans is that Terramare spoke Indo European while Etruscans didn't, they spoke an ANF language like Basques do. Etruscans had some G2a and J2b l283, we know G2a was from ANF, could it be that J2b l283 was also? It looks like these lineages that became the minority (ydna) somehow kept their language after the R1b influx

The majority of G2a found in the Etruscans are G2a-L497, which is considered a marker that formed in central Europe, and right in the areas close to the various R1b P312, R1b U152, R1b L2... and it is no coincidence that the Raeti, linguistically related to the Etruscans, lived right in between the presumed sites of formation of this markers and the Etruscans.

J2b-L283 seems to have entered the Steppes very early, and the 2 individuals found in the Etruscans have matches with Middle Bronze Age specimens found in Croatia, Serbia on the Hungarian border. To me it could be due to contacts during the Protovillanovan culture with the Urnfield. Archaeologists speculate that there may have been these contacts, and that small groups of individuals may have arrived in the Proto-Etruscan world during this period from the northern Balkans. I would like to see the results of the ancient Veneti, but unfortunately, as I have said many times before, there is a problem with northern Italy and the Bronze Age because of incineration.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The majority of G2a found in the Etruscans are G2a-L497, which is considered a marker that formed in central Europe, and right in the areas close to the various R1b P312, R1b U152, R1b L2... and it is no coincidence that the Raeti, linguistically related to the Etruscans, lived right in between the presumed sites of formation of this markers and the Etruscans.

J2b-L283 seems to have entered the Steppes very early, and the 2 individuals found in the Etruscans have matches with Middle Bronze Age specimens found in Croatia, Serbia on the Hungarian border. To me it could be due to contacts during the Protovillanovan culture with the Urnfield. Archaeologists speculate that there may have been these contacts, and that small groups of individuals may have arrived in the Proto-Etruscan world during this period from the northern Balkans. I would like to see the results of the ancient Veneti, but unfortunately, as I have said many times before, there is a problem with northern Italy and the Bronze Age because of incineration.

It was found in iron age Austria during the proto Celtic Hallstatt expansion -

haplotree.info - ancientdna.info. Map based on All Ancient DNA v. 2.07.26.

It wouldn't make sense for Etruscans to have 100% ydna from an indo european speaking group in central europe and speak a non Indo European language, maybe their G2a-L497 is local -

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/F8LNiFwDZdqaL_391kRWu8OP_RBM2g9RAgTAp0lL4OBP4ZGYupR76adpV8mr8OxipNI8iUnC29Omt-O_hghYQ53JFgjaMKkF2_Ufsp51l1FNuVRFgsSX

J2b l283 could be from illyrians that travelled to Italy in the iron age, it hasn't been found in yamnaya yet, it is either an ANF or Caucasus Hunter gatherer line which entered Steppe but hasn't shown up in Steppe so far. It is unlikely to be related to Urnfield as most illyrians didn't cremate and J2b l283 didn't show up in Tollense but they only tested 10% of the warriors due to "lack of funding", I think that's BS.

We can see here who some of the Tollense samples match with from modern populations -

https://imgb.ifunny.co/images/8a45fc43dcd6741bbe88b0b128516248e7612d5ae9bef3c151eccef6b54f3386_1.webp

 

[Vitruvius]

The Sea Peoples were not your Nordicist wet dream,sorry.

He is more interested in writing fiction than reading. According to him these same "Urnfielder sea peoples" destroyed Terramare in some sort of unevidenced war of annihilation that took place as a result of an unevidenced rebellion from their imperial urnfielder masters. Terramare also definitely weren't urnfielders themselves, by the way, and they definitely did not cremate their dead and definitely had nothing to do with the hungarian Vatya culture from which all of their weapons tech, urban planning, and agricultural practices were derived from. (Especially don't ask Cardarelli or Cavazzuti on this.)

Talking with him feels like talking with a flat earther. He will just deny reality as emperically evidenced and documented by experts and repeat himself as if some amateur youtube video on Tollense of NE Germany has anything to do with this topic.

To the guy who claimed Urnfield didn't have leadership or a central government, no idea how you can think that when 5,000 people were assembled for war and some were recruited from far -

Five thousand is nothing. In the Late Bronze Age the Terramare alone organized an estimated 120k individuals to raid and colonize the Eastern Mediterranean out of a total population of roughly 200k. But according your headcanon fiction they were supposedly destroyed by your "Centralized Urnfield leadership" and their 5000 mobilized Tollense warriors from NE Germany.

From the official Montale Terramare archaeological park website:

The villages were very common, and the area between the Emilian plain and the lowlands in the provinces of Cremona, Mantova and Verona had a population density that was striking for its time: estimates put the population at between 150,000 and 200,000.

(http://parcomontale.it/en/the-archaeological-park/the-terramare)

 

[torzio]

from what I recall from the paper

High resolution mapping of Y haplogroup G in Tyrol (Austria)” [Forensic Sci. Int. Genet. 7 (2013)​

The Bulk of G ydna in the Tyrol is G-L497.....................The set of binary markers included nine SNPs specific for sub-lineages of haplogroup G. The frequency of haplogroup G in 2379 unrelated men born in Tyrol amounted to 11.3%. Nearly all of these Y chromosomes belonged to haplogroup G2a. The main sub-haplogroup within G2a was defined by the SNP L497 (G2a3b1c) and reached a population frequency of 8.6%

origins are modern black-sea Romania

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

He is more interested in writing fiction than reading. According to him these same "Urnfielder sea peoples" destroyed Terramare in some sort of unevidenced war of annihilation that took place as a result of an unevidenced rebellion from their imperial urnfielder masters. Terramare also definitely weren't urnfielders themselves, by the way, and they definitely did not cremate their dead and definitely had nothing to do with the hungarian Vatya culture from which all of their weapons tech, urban planning, and agricultural practices were derived from. (Especially don't ask Cardarelli or Cavazzuti on this.)

Talking with him feels like talking with a flat earther. He will just deny reality as emperically evidenced and documented by experts and repeat himself as if some amateur youtube video on Tollense of NE Germany has anything to do with this topic.



Five thousand is nothing. In the Late Bronze Age the Terramare alone organized an estimated 120k individuals to raid and colonize the Eastern Mediterranean out of a total population of roughly 200k. But according your headcanon fiction they were supposedly destroyed by your "Centralized Urnfield leadership" and their 5000 mobilized Tollense warriors from NE Germany.

From the official Montale Terramare archaeological park website:

(http://parcomontale.it/en/the-archaeological-park/the-terramare)

Troll is at it again, flat earth is something you like to read about. We don't need to know what else you like to read about.

I've already showed you similarities between urnfield and sea peoples with ancient depictions, don't know why it makes you cry if you don't believe the links anyway. Terramare was destroyed in 1200BC, it is evidenced and even mentioned in the article you linked above dummy. Terramare started 1700BC, Urnfield was later and expanded around 1300BC from the core in central/east Europe.

I'm pretty sure the YouTuber knows more about genetics than you do, as do these people who said the exact same thing -

Tollense Valley Bronze Age warriors were very close relatives of modern-day Slavs

This is strongly suggested by the Principal Component Analysis (PCA) below, which shows that many of the Tollense Valley warriors (Welzin_BA...

eurogenes.blogspot.com

Tollense was a big war for bronze age, Terramare may or may not have had a big population but it was ultimately destroyed as was Mycenae, maybe they weren't prepared for the onslaught and citizens were unarmed. Tollense has everything to do with this discussion as it was an Urnfield war and following the war Naue 2 swords were transported to North Germany/south Scandinavia. If you don't want to talk about Urnfield anymore that's fine, we can leave it.

 

[Vitruvius]

Troll is at it again, flat earth is something you like to read about. We don't need to know what else you like to read about.

I've already showed you similarities between urnfield and sea peoples with ancient depictions, don't know why it makes you cry. Terramare was destroyed in 1200BC, it is evidenced and even mentioned in the article you linked above dummy. Terramare started 1700BC, Urnfield was later and expanded around 1300BC from the core in central/east Europe.

I'm pretty sure the YouTuber knows more about genetics than you do, as do these people who said the exact same thing -

Tollense Valley Bronze Age warriors were very close relatives of modern-day Slavs

This is strongly suggested by the Principal Component Analysis (PCA) below, which shows that many of the Tollense Valley warriors (Welzin_BA...

eurogenes.blogspot.com

Tollense was a big war for bronze age, Terramare may or may not have had a big population but it was ultimately destroyed as was Mycenae, maybe they weren't prepared for the onslaught and citizens were unarmed. Tollense has everything to do with this discussion as it was an Urnfield war and following the war Naue 2 swords were transported to North Germany/south Scandinavia. If you don't want to talk about Urnfield anymore that's fine, we can leave it.

Again here you go making up nonsense since you seem to be incapable of reading. The Montale Archaeological park does not say Terramare was destroyed. It states:

"Around 1200 BC, the terramare settlements underwent a demise, and within a couple of decades they disappeared. Archaeologists do not yet know the reason for this sudden demise, but it is possible that a series of man-made and natural causes led to the end of the terramare system. Climate change, albeit slight, may have provoked a crisis in the land-economy system which sustained the terramare population. However, climate change alone does not appear to be the only factor in the drastic collapse. Exactly why the terramare culture ended is still an unresolved mystery."

You're not educated enough to have a conversation about Urnfield or any Bronze age culture to begin with. You aren't even aware that Terramare itself was part of the urnfield phenomenon or that they practiced cremation from the very beginning.

"The Terramare, situated on the southern part of the Po plain, conversely, are
characterized by the exclusive use of urn cremation. Pragatto, Montata, Beneceto,
Copezzato, Vicofertile (Bernabò Brea et al., 1997; Bronzoni et al., 2012; Ferrari
& Mutti, 2018), and above all, Casinalbo, which provides the largest archaeologi-
cal and osteological dataset (674 excavated graves, 349 analysed and published) are
amongst the most notable urnfields (Cardarelli, 2014; Cavazzuti & Salvadei, 2014)."

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Again here you go making up nonsense since you seem to be incapable of reading. The Montale Archaeological park does not say Terramare was destroyed. It states:

"Around 1200 BC, the terramare settlements underwent a demise, and within a couple of decades they disappeared. Archaeologists do not yet know the reason for this sudden demise, but it is possible that a series of man-made and natural causes led to the end of the terramare system. Climate change, albeit slight, may have provoked a crisis in the land-economy system which sustained the terramare population. However, climate change alone does not appear to be the only factor in the drastic collapse. Exactly why the terramare culture ended is still an unresolved mystery."

You're not educated enough to have a conversation about Urnfield or any Bronze age culture to begin with. You aren't even aware that Terramare itself was part of the urnfield phenomenon or that they practiced cremation from the very beginning.

"The Terramare, situated on the southern part of the Po plain, conversely, are
characterized by the exclusive use of urn cremation. Pragatto, Montata, Beneceto,
Copezzato, Vicofertile (Bernabò Brea et al., 1997; Bronzoni et al., 2012; Ferrari
& Mutti, 2018), and above all, Casinalbo, which provides the largest archaeologi-
cal and osteological dataset (674 excavated graves, 349 analysed and published) are
amongst the most notable urnfields (Cardarelli, 2014; Cavazzuti & Salvadei, 2014)."

Some archeologists also say they "do not know" the reason for Mycenaeans sudden demise even though there is evidence that their cities were burned and destroyed. They don't want to acknowledge the possibility that there was a new super power in central Europe that basically started a religious war/conquest. They would rather believe that bronze age people were peaceful, they cannot deny it anymore after Tollense.

You say I'm not educated enough when I have provided you with tons of articles regarding Urnfield and all you've done is talk about flat earth. Terramare was not using urns from 1700BC when it started, it used them much later. Even if it did use urns from let's say 1300BC, I mentioned earlier that it is possible new leadership in central Europe Urnfield may have had a dispute with Terramare leadership around 1200BC which lead to their demise. What is your reason for the sudden abandonment of 100,000+ people, they weren't abducted by aliens or fell off the flat earth. They were likely attacked and some fled south to create Villonovan culture.

When Urnfielders spread west they mixed with local Tumulus people but may have lost touch with the centre/core in central east Europe -
"The urnfield folk spread, that is, both into Holland and Central France, but lost touch with the creative centre and became economically isolated. The phenomena observed on the Lower Rhine in Belgium and Holland in other respects reproduce those noticed in France. The urnfield folk spread thither slowly and mixed with tumulus-builders."

 

[Poxy]

He is more interested in writing fiction than reading. According to him these same "Urnfielder sea peoples" destroyed Terramare in some sort of unevidenced war of annihilation that took place as a result of an unevidenced rebellion from their imperial urnfielder masters. Terramare also definitely weren't urnfielders themselves, by the way, and they definitely did not cremate their dead and definitely had nothing to do with the hungarian Vatya culture from which all of their weapons tech, urban planning, and agricultural practices were derived from. (Especially don't ask Cardarelli or Cavazzuti on this.)

Talking with him feels like talking with a flat earther. He will just deny reality as emperically evidenced and documented by experts and repeat himself as if some amateur youtube video on Tollense of NE Germany has anything to do with this topic.



Five thousand is nothing. In the Late Bronze Age the Terramare alone organized an estimated 120k individuals to raid and colonize the Eastern Mediterranean out of a total population of roughly 200k. But according your headcanon fiction they were supposedly destroyed by your "Centralized Urnfield leadership" and their 5000 mobilized Tollense warriors from NE Germany.

From the official Montale Terramare archaeological park website:

(http://parcomontale.it/en/the-archaeological-park/the-terramare)

The reason why Tollense was able to destroy Terramare

 

[Vallicanus]

The reason why Tollense was able to destroy Terramare


View attachment 15442

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The reason why Tollense was able to destroy Terramare


View attachment 15442

The Tollense warriors had human sized bones, go back to watching your weirdo anime