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kirei_na_me
26-07-04, 21:11
In the past few days, some of you might have noticed that there have been numerous conflicts going on.

This forum used to not be this way. In 10 years of being on the internet, I had not been on a more sane forum. For Thomas' sake, we will not let it go down the drain. I'm sorry.

If you get riled at anything a particular person says, please put them on your Ignore List (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/profile.php?do=editlist). If you feel like you're just going to spontaneously combust at the very sight of another person's name, put them on ignore.

If we continue to have these confrontations featuring personal attacks where nothing short of "yo mama" is being said, we will start doing more than just deleteing posts and givng bad reps. We'll have to start banning people, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the 'crime'.

Please use those ignore lists and please show some consideration.

Thank you.
:bow:

RockLee
26-07-04, 21:19
Well said Kirei :-) ....hope the ppl will be smart enough to use it.

Frank D. White
26-07-04, 21:37
I used to watch for new people who joined but did not post. I would PM them and say feel free to post; people on this Forum are SOOO polite & SOOO friendly, there are no fights or disagreements!(almost never) Then we have a running battle through 6 or 8 different threads and I look like an idiot for bragging how great the Forum is!
I guess I will become a "lurker" and keep my fingers quiet?

Frank

:(

Arch
26-07-04, 23:51
I agree, i havent been hear too long, but about a year. When i first joined , they was no argument what so ever. They has been increasing disrespect for other peoples opinions and people just been plain rude. But im sure things can improve, i dint know the lists existed !
Thx very much for posting

TwistedMac
27-07-04, 00:56
I SEE THE GLARES!!

okok, i'll be good... :gomen:

bossel
27-07-04, 01:16
Kirei is absolutely right, better ignore people than to go into tit-for-tat battles.
If you are someone who can't ignore others that talk to you, try to counter their insults with arguments. Sometimes even that helps, since they might get bored when they can't provoke you.

Lina Inverse
27-07-04, 04:33
Well said, kirei! :haihai:
I hope people start using that list and behave again.

jeisan
27-07-04, 04:37
and as always if there is a problem everyone should feel free to contact any of us mods/advisors/admins, prefereably one who's online at the time, to get things taken care of.

kirei_na_me
27-07-04, 04:40
and as always if there is a problem everyone should feel free to contact any of us mods/advisors/admins, prefereably one who's online at the time, to get things taken care of.

Exactly. I think we're pretty approachable, ne? If there's a problem, we'll try to help the best way we know how.

Elizabeth
27-07-04, 11:36
If we continue to have these confrontations featuring personal attacks where nothing short of "yo mama" is being said, we will start doing more than just deleteing posts and givng bad reps. We'll have to start banning people, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the 'crime'.

Cutting wayward juniors out of the point system entirely sounds brutal but it would most likely stop such squabbles dead. :relief:

Arch
27-07-04, 13:30
I SEE THE GLARES!!

okok, i'll be good... :gomen:

lol nah, your as funny as hell even why you say stuff about me !

:D :D

cacawate
28-07-04, 10:32
Exactly. I think we're pretty approachable, ne? If there's a problem, we'll try to help the best way we know how.

ROCK! I'll be the first!

Golgo_13
28-07-04, 22:10
It won't allow me to ignore Admin people!!!! :D :D :D :p :blush:

jeisan
28-07-04, 23:03
i dont think you need an ignore list for that golgo.

Jean-Francois
29-07-04, 22:56
Ignoring others is my strength. Some people call it a weakness, but I would just ignore them and their comments altogether and as usual. I am really good at it. No ignoring list is necessary.

Note: I am cool with people who ignore me too.

Japanimaniac
01-12-04, 04:01
This is a really good point. I just joined in the beginning of October, and the reason was because everyone on here seemed pretty mature and was more interested in talking about Japan than bashing each other. That's gone away a little bit in the last couple weeks. I know nothing gold can stay, but let's try to keep it shiny for as long as possible, eh?

Dutch Baka
03-04-05, 03:17
wow people really fight on this forum.....

its over now i hope...
Kirei when you ever need help... dont kick people out... i can talk to them, and i will give them some kind of LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ( wht am i talking about....)

if that doesnt help... well you know what to do....

but lets hope people stay nice to each other....

Mycernius
03-04-05, 18:37
Nobody on this forum has wound me up enough to use the ignore list or bad rep them. One or two have come close, but I can just read their posts and take a time out and think to post or not to post. I find humour a good way out of these bad situations. If that doesn't work then I will not answer them and go down to their level. :wave:

I used to watch for new people who joined but did not post. I would PM them and say feel free to post; people on this Forum are SOOO polite & SOOO friendly, there are no fights or disagreements!(almost never) Then we have a running battle through 6 or 8 different threads and I look like an idiot for bragging how great the Forum is!
I guess I will become a "lurker" and keep my fingers quiet?

Frank

:(
Don't bcome a lurker Frank. It makes you sound as if you live in a dark, dank basement. Your posts and wisdom bring that ray of light to us all and keep most of us sane :(

ironman
07-06-05, 11:24
In the past few days, some of you might have noticed that there have been numerous conflicts going on.If we continue to have these confrontations featuring personal attacks where nothing short of "yo mama" is being said, we will start doing more than just deleteing posts and givng bad reps. We'll have to start banning people, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the 'crime'. Please use those ignore lists and please show some consideration.Thank you.
:bow:

Are there bannings now? The expat site I am a member of in Taiwan seems to have a regular banning going on. Say one a month or so.

Tim33
07-06-05, 11:30
I agree these attacks need to stop. I have tried to remain calm my whole time being in this place though sometimes i lash out or say something that is not really nessesary. It can be very hard to just sit back and not reply. Maybe ignor is the way to go.

I think there was a banning recently Ironman

Japanimaniac
07-06-05, 17:50
The problem with ignoring is that even though you can't stand the person, you might just miss an important part of a thread by not seeing one of their posts. I know my typing and emotions got ahead of my brain a couple times, but I've always tried to apologize or explain myself. Fortunately, (most) people here are (usually) mature, and there have only been little bursts of actual conflict here and there.

This is the only forum I've ever actually been proud to be a part of, and I hope it stays that way. :cool:

kirei_na_me
07-06-05, 18:15
Are there bannings now? The expat site I am a member of in Taiwan seems to have a regular banning going on. Say one a month or so.

People are banned if they break the rules.

This forum, in general, is a fantastic forum. I have said many times, that in my 11 years of internet use, this is the best internet community I've ever been around. However, there are still some people who come here for the wrong reasons. I'm not talking about the regular spammers. I'm talking about people who have got some real beef with Japan or the Japanese and want to throw around insults and personal attacks. Or really just anyone who has a short fuse and wants to fight about something. It just will not be tolerated. If that means banning, then so be it.

We usually try to give out warnings prior to banning, but if someone oversteps considerably, they could be banned without warning. It's usually discussed between the team members before anything is done, or after, in some cases(when adjustments can be made, if necessary). We usually try to be in on everything together by getting each other's opinions about someone or something.

I would say that we have a pretty high tolerance around here. I think we're an open-minded bunch, despite what some biased people would think... :p

Anyway, happy posting! :wave:

P.S. - It's always good to know the rules (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/rules.php).

ironman
08-06-05, 02:04
People are banned if they break the rules.
Anyway, happy posting! :wave: P.S. - It's always good to know the rules (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/rules.php).

Thanks for the update. Doubt I'll come to the attention of anybody for a banning. Rules look quite similar to the Taiwanese forum I am a member of and I've managed around 650 posts without causing much trouble.

I only came in to look around but I am so damned impressed with the site I might stay and post on occasion (If I don't annoy you guys too much) Even be fun to tie up a ski trip and one of your expat gatherings later this year. Who knows.

The Taiwanese site has had a recent commotion and is recovering now. They do it pretty well but as must happen here as well, you can't please everyone. :-)

Sensuikan San
08-06-05, 04:40
I think I should add my two-cents worth on this one ...

I do feel that I was at least becoming 'one of the guilty ones' on "a certain thread" over the last few days !

Just let me apologise to all those who feel that I may have gone over the top a tad in venting my spleen.

But I have the greatest respect for the general tone of this forum, and hate to see it (and any other forum) misused.

Regards to all...

W

Mycernius
08-06-05, 21:15
I think I should add my two-cents worth on this one ...

I do feel that I was at least becoming 'one of the guilty ones' on "a certain thread" over the last few days !

Just let me apologise to all those who feel that I may have gone over the top a tad in venting my spleen.

But I have the greatest respect for the general tone of this forum, and hate to see it (and any other forum) misused.

Regards to all...

W
What? I hadn't noticed. No worries, I felt you left in time, just as others were starting to leave.
I have put one person on the ignore list, but he no longer appears to post here, so he has been removed. I like to see what is being said, even if I don't like it.
I have only ever joined one other forum and that depresses me as people like to flame each other with abuse, so I no longer use it. I have seen it on other forums as well. :okashii: That is what I like about Jref, everyone is usually very nice and polite. :-) You get the occassional abuse, but it is usually dealt with very quickly (thanks admins) and order is quickly restored. So I will continue posting (I can hear you groan) and keep having FUN! :happy:
(I like these smilies, maybe I should use them more :? ) :cool:

lastmagi
31-10-05, 02:01
Ah, I guess the fighting's all coming up again.

I agree, putting people on Ignore is good to maintain order, or at least sanity. Arguments on Internet forums never get resolved except with the intervention of a moderator, I've found. Besides, didn't you ever want to try that cool feature on JREF? ;-)

Miss_apollo7
31-10-05, 13:48
Ah, I guess the fighting's all coming up again.

I agree, putting people on Ignore is good to maintain order, or at least sanity. Arguments on Internet forums never get resolved except with the intervention of a moderator, I've found. Besides, didn't you ever want to try that cool feature on JREF? ;-)

I must admit, I haven't used it - YET!!! :blush:

Elizabeth
01-11-05, 15:28
I turned it on once for Toilet Roll, until he was banned. If you think things are bad now...:p

Kinsao
01-11-05, 18:31
I turned it on once for Toilet Roll, until he was banned. If you thinks thinks are bad now...:p

His name says it all, yeah?

Elizabeth
01-11-05, 18:47
His name says it all, yeah?
For whatever it's worth...I first remembered it as Toilet Paper, but I think it was defiantely Roll. :bluush:

Revenant
01-11-05, 19:20
The very first forum I joined was merciless to any who got easily offended or provoked. Quickly, after a couple of fights did I learn that it was better to just keep my side civil, and not get upset. I do have the odd day wherein I am especially irritable, and by chance does someone have a go at me on that day. Under these conditions do I get a little nasty at times. Just being honest.

Jack
02-11-05, 12:11
wait who do we ignore if something happens? why do we ignore people anyway?
it wouldn't be nice to ignore folk, cant we all be civil?

the bigger man is forgiving.

Dutch Baka
02-11-05, 23:33
why do we ignore people anyway?



SOME PEOPLE ABHOR EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lexico
03-11-05, 00:17
wait who do we ignore if something happens? why do we ignore people anyway?
it wouldn't be nice to ignore folk, cant we all be civil?

the bigger man is forgiving.Easier said than done. Often there are misreadings of an innocuous post. Less often, there is malicious content. Most of the time, common sense overcomes these human errors. Less often, common sense fails.

Misread words. Misread intention. => flaming capacity might become mutually realised

Correctly read words of malice. Correctly read malicious intention. => flaming capacity again...

It feels mightly cold on the forum right now. I might have had a part over my time here. I never provoked, but I might have failed either by mireading, or just reading words of bile too chrystal clear, words of bileful insensitivity too painfully clear. :(

It is winter; it is supposed to be cold physically. Can humanity overcome inhumanity ? Science helps.

Elizabeth
04-11-05, 00:48
Ah, I guess the fighting's all coming up again.

I agree, putting people on Ignore is good to maintain order, or at least sanity. Arguments on Internet forums never get resolved except with the intervention of a moderator, I've found. Besides, didn't you ever want to try that cool feature on JREF? ;-)
Well, yes and no. There is definately a sense here of having to watch your words and of dictates being handed down from on high. It wasn't this way, though, going back over a year now, because the community was much more cohesive and tightly intertwined then which nurtured both self and social restraint plus a more relaxed (fun) environment. The level of arguing that led to a ban for instance was much less because it happened much less frequently.

Of course as everyone says compared with other boards most people here still don't take it too seriously...just that the standards have changed can't be denied.

Carlson
10-11-05, 22:52
*clicks ignore all*

anjusan
13-11-05, 19:04
What I like the most about this forum is that it comes the closest, in spirit, of meeting people face-to-face who share a common interest in Japan. I feel the sincereity of this community and have seen mutual trust and respect here.

Emotions, like thoughts, are such transient things... but words... they are left for all to see... It is that permanence that gets some into trouble... after the heat of the moment has passed...

I am not really sure where I was going with this thought, except perhaps to say that I am a newb here and so far I really like this forum and all the people here... and I hope I never have to use the 'ignore' feature... but it is nice to know it is there... :cool:

Sensuikan San
13-11-05, 22:53
I did employ the "ignore" facility ... just once ....

... but found it totally infuriating ....!

... I just kept on wanting to read what the blighter had posted .... !

... so I switched it off!

(It's O.K! ... it was against nobody still here on the forum now!)

:homer:

ジョン

nurizeko
18-02-06, 13:14
ignore list for the win!

No-name
19-02-06, 05:37
I was asked to ignore someone, and it is quite interesting to see half of arguments. Like Sensuikan San, I also find it infuriating. It just kinda grates on you to not know what the person is posting, but I generally assume that he is being rude and I can accurately imagine what the posts say anyway. I just wish I could respond... some people are so incredibly wrong, they do not deserve the courtesy we extend to them... I believe they should be rightously opposed and hear my perfect opinion every time they post.

Hachiro
19-02-06, 06:09
I believe they should be rightously opposed and hear my perfect opinion every time they post.:giggle: :kanashii:

Elizabeth
19-02-06, 11:26
I was asked to ignore someone, and it is quite interesting to see half of arguments. Like Sensuikan San, I also find it infuriating.
Sorry for the double post. :blush: :bluush:

Elizabeth
19-02-06, 11:27
I was asked to ignore someone, and it is quite interesting to see half of arguments. Like Sensuikan San, I also find it infuriating.
To the extent the ignore faculty is one thing still under user control, if complying with such a request in spirit by responding in moderation goes against a forum rule or is something that can be censored, I would be a bit suprised...

Reiku
19-02-06, 13:36
I seriously thought about it a few times, but I don't want to use it unless I absolutely have to.

I don't really like the idea of just turning a switch and blocking out everything someone says--it's too much like censorship. When someone has a different opinon--even if it's TOTALLY WRONG AND OFFENSINVE, I feel like it would be a failing on my part if all I could do was refuse to hear them.

Besides, the refusing to hear opposing views is usually what makes me so mad at people in the first place--I don't want to start doing it myself. :D

Da Monstar
19-02-06, 13:57
Is there an Ignore list?

I think sometimes it is acceptable if you want to ignore someone, but by reading a list of people that you should ignore. If you're ignoring a person it has to be for a personal reason. otherwise it is not fair, not giving them a chance to get un-ignored.

No-name
19-02-06, 18:48
I think it is almost a birthright to respond to those you feel are trolling or are especially wrong and offensive. To ignore them in such cases seems an abrogation of responsibility. I believe it is necessary to hear opposing viewpoints and to respond to them-- and Reiku-- it does definitely feel like censorship. I believe you are familiar with my specific situation.

(I did send out a pm to a few moderators to argue my case...)

Hachiro
20-02-06, 12:53
I think it is almost a birthright to respond to those you feel are trolling or are especially wrong and offensive. To ignore them in such cases seems an abrogation of responsibility. I believe it is necessary to hear opposing viewpoints and to respond to them--

Interesting point of view to say the least. What do you do if you get frustrated to the point of wanting to wring the little "chicken necked" S.O.B. for "stalking" you or just making you feel miserable in their responses to your posts? (I am talking hypothetically here.)

Doesn't the "ignore" button give one a sense of freedom from having to respond to idiots posts?

That said I truly admire your attitude!

Kinsao
20-02-06, 13:39
I would never use the ignore button. I am perfectly capable of reading someone's posts and choosing whether or not to reply to them. To be honest, nothing anyone ever posts on an internet forum (with the exception of graphic mutilation pictures, possibly O_o) would affect me so deeply that I would wish not to be able to read it. If someone is acting like a total m o r o n I hope I'm mature enough to be able to 'ignore' them all by myself!

Elizabeth
20-02-06, 14:22
I think it is almost a birthright to respond to those you feel are trolling or are especially wrong and offensive. To ignore them in such cases seems an abrogation of responsibility. I believe it is necessary to hear opposing viewpoints and to respond to them-- and Reiku-- it does definitely feel like censorship. I believe you are familiar with my specific situation.
(I did send out a pm to a few moderators to argue my case...)
I can understand why censorship would be so anathema if the ignore button has been disabled in this case....On the other hand, we aren't here to be pawns of the moderators. If the promotion and protection of freedom of expression
on the internet is that much of an issue of conscience for anyone than I say by all means respond as you see fit and be prepared to take the consequences.

Glenn
20-02-06, 16:43
I think ignoring can be healthy if paying attention just causes you stress. I've used the ignore list and it's made my life more peaceful. I've also chosen to ignore people "in real life" and gotten the same result. Of course, there's the option of not using it and just not reading what someone has typed, but there's always that temptation if you can see it.

Just for your information, the ignore list merely "soft deletes" the messages of the person (people) on it, and you can actually view them if you wish. It doesn't make it so that the person you put on ignore completely disappears -- you'll still see when they post something new, including starting threads, and any place where they post will be evident to you. You can just click on "view post" to see what they have written.


If the promotion and protection of freedom of expression
on the internet is that much of an issue of conscience for anyone than I say by all means respond as you see fit and be prepared to take the consequences.

Key phrase in bold. Indeed, and that's not just on the internet.

And by the way, just as an aside and something that I've been wondering about for a while: what is it about the internet that seems to negate personal responsibility, acountability, and responsibility about what one says? I've seen this over and over again that people say it's just the internet and it doesn't matter. These are still ideas that people have and believe in; what does it matter what format they're communicated by? Why is it less valid over the internet than any other form of communication? I'm not sure I'm understanding the argument properly.

No-name
20-02-06, 17:32
So far the ignore button is still under our countrol. I can choose to ignore or "unignore" (which you have to do to send a pm.) and like elizabeth said be prepared to take the consequences. Removal of posts and threads however is still under moderator control-- which is a good thing. I will comply with the requests of moderators because I feel the need for order sometimes outweighs my need for expression. I don't always have to get my way. *(goes off and pouts)*

Reiku
21-02-06, 01:17
Nani?

What requests are these? Did I miss something?

Anyway, I agree that in an extreme case the ignore function could be nessecary--I'm not complaining about having it--but what it boils down to is that to use it would mean I am not mature enough to deal with someone who offends me any other way.

The root of censorship is when someone feels offended by something, and rather than deal with it themselves asks a higher authority to act as a "parent" and protect them from the offending material...

...it's simply not a mature way of dealing with your problems.

Granted, some could argue that getting pissed and telling someone off is immature, but I think that is a common misconception. Personally, I feel it is more mature and polite to respond honestly--it is degrading to both sides if you do otherwise.

Of course, I realize I am in the minority in this opinion--but to be honest, I feel that is because too many people mindlessly accept whatever they are told growing up, and never bother to think for themselves.

Hachiro
22-02-06, 10:02
Nani?
What requests are these? Did I miss something?
Anyway, I agree that in an extreme case the ignore function could be nessecary--I'm not complaining about having it--but what it boils down to is that to use it would mean I am not mature enough to deal with someone who offends me any other way.
The root of censorship is when someone feels offended by something, and rather than deal with it themselves asks a higher authority to act as a "parent" and protect them from the offending material...
...it's simply not a mature way of dealing with your problems.
Of course, I realize I am in the minority in this opinion--but to be honest, I feel that is because too many people mindlessly accept whatever they are told growing up, and never bother to think for themselves.
I personally don't think that it is just a maturity issue, then again that is purely my opinion. Many times I see that people can not discern between "reality" and an internet message board. People think or feel that they are free from consequences when they troll a board or issue threats to other members. If the board is moderated then people like this tend to disappear after time.
However then you open yourself, (the moderator/admin) to allegations of censureship, so which is it going to be? Each person needs to make an active choice on whether or not they want to participate in a discussion.
If there is someone they feel they can't get along with then using the ignore button is not being imature, it is showing an ability to separate oneself from their problems without having to actually stop participating in the discussion.

...it's simply not a mature way of dealing with your problems.

That all depends on the person, to make a blatant statement such as that makes the assumption that everyone is like you. Which of course they are not. What is right for one is not necessarily right for all as I am sure you are aware. Then what options do people have? Not to participate if they find someone particularly offensive, or perhaps have opinions that differ from their own? Noone would be left to discuss anything except the trolls and offensive people who enjoy inflicting pain on others. This board would die.

--it is degrading to both sides if you do otherwise.
I'm sorry but I disagree with this statement, blowing off steam on an internet message board serves its purpose as well.

No-name
26-03-06, 17:19
I don't mind following the directions of a moderator. They can provide an important protection to an internet community such as ours from flaming and trolling. I need an objective eye sometimes to tell me if I am getting out of line and I do not feel put upon to be corrected... even if I may not specifically agree with the correction. Self censorship is not necessarily a bad thing. We as a community are doing this voluntarily-- and it is not imposed by some Big Brother.

Minty
08-04-06, 21:35
I am wondering about the ignore button, when you put people on ignore you canft see their posts, but how about them, can they see yours?:clueless:

Glenn
09-04-06, 13:07
Yes, unless they've put you on their ignore list.

strongvoicesforward
09-04-06, 14:11
Interesting these last few exchanges. I was wondering if a program could be written into the forum that would make a "Hide" command.

This command would let us list who we don`t want our posts to be viewed by. That way, those who are known to be too sensitive or antagonistic whenever a new post or thread is written on a certain topic, can be kept from becomng insulted or offended because of their sensitivities to a topic by preventing them from viewing it. I guess that would be kind of like empowering members limited powers of banning certain people just from viewing what they have to say on something.

Would this kind of command be possible?

Mycernius
09-04-06, 14:36
I don't agree. With that kind of power you could put up all sorts of inflammatory remarks and know that you could literally ban someone from your threads or posts. The only way to avoid people from getting over stressed at posts or threads is to think about it before posting it. You could also end up getting very cliquey and I could see an open forum being a waste of time. Might as well just email people. If you want to talk about a subject with someone or several people PM them and go into a side room in chat

strongvoicesforward
09-04-06, 14:53
I disagree, Mycernius. However, I do see your concern. Perhaps it would be good if there were a limit as to how many people a person could put on their "hide" list. Say 1, for all members under 500 posts. 2 for 1000. 3 for 2000.

Or it could be contingent on the number of threads people create but only those threads that attracted a certain number of posts or hits would be counted toward the priviledge of getting some "hide" power.

If there are controls put into the programming of it then I don`t think it could be abused to create cliques.

I think it is worth the discussion.

kirei_na_me
09-04-06, 15:51
There has to be some kind of limits in a forum like this. This is not just some free for all.

I think it's a fend for yourself type thing, mostly. It's upon yourself to act in a mature manner. I mean, it seems most of us are past the grammar school playground stage. N'est-ce pas?

Thomas & Co. made this forum the way it is and I don't think it's anyone's place to come in and so strongly suggest making dramatic changes. Of course, Thomas & Co. have the right to say no, but I, myself, would never even consider suggesting to make any major changes, because I would(and do) feel it is upon myself(and no one else) to behave.

Lately it seems that there are some members who think one's opinion is somehow better than the other's and that one's word is somehow better than the other's, and it's getting very old.

I'm finding it hard to keep away from that Rodney King quote...

strongvoicesforward
09-04-06, 17:02
Thomas & Co. made this forum the way it is and I don't think it's anyone's place to come in and so strongly suggest making dramatic changes. Of course, Thomas & Co. have the right to say no, but I, myself, would never even consider suggesting to make any major changes, because I would(and do) feel it is upon myself(and no one else) to behave.
Lately it seems that there are some members who think one's opinion is somehow better than the other's and that one's word is somehow better than the other's, and it's getting very old.

I really can`t see why you seem so against "opinions" and "suggestions" for the forum, KNM. In fact, the sectoin title of this forum section clearly invites us to do so:


Site Feedback/Admin Contact: Post your ideas, suggestions or complaints (open to guests).

So, what`s the problem when "ideas" and "suggestions" are specifically and unambiguosly being sought out?

strongvoicesforward
09-04-06, 19:20
OR...why not let the "rep points" be viewed as money to purchase a "hide" command. However, it should be a costly purchase -- perhaps 1000 points to hide one person. That way, the rep points as money will have some value other than just comments of support from others. It would also perhaps encourage more people to participate in awarding rep.

I think it would also encourage people to be even more helpful to others with comments so that if they want to purchase a "hide" someone command, they have to earn it by being an active member.

Again, just throwing some ideas out like the forum section title and sub title asks us to do.

Sensuikan San
10-04-06, 02:24
Stop! .......Everybody!

In fact, SVF has a most wonderful idea here!

I endorse it; and endorse it wholeheartedly.

Just stop and think ... if you wish to write all sorts of cr*p about somebody and you don't want them to read it ..... just ghideh them! If you want to write all sorts of cr*p and not receive a response of any kind from a particular individual .... ghideh them!

It's the final solution to a problem that all fora face!

Just stop and think about it! The ramifications are awesome! And I have no problem with earning the rights to exercise this gpowerh either.

(The only problem I can think of is ...... what happens if everyone chose to ghideh .... the same poster ....... ? How unfortunate for them that would be .....! But, I digress ....)

Perhaps the moderators et al would give this more serious thought, and not dismiss it too lightly ..... ?

Excellent and innovative suggestion. A final solution indeed!

W

strongvoicesforward
10-04-06, 04:00
Stop! .......Everybody!
In fact, SVF has a most wonderful idea here!
I endorse it; and endorse it wholeheartedly.

Hi John,

I am glad you like the suggestion. Your comments, too (though not sure if you were being serious or sarcastic), are interesting. I will address some of them.


Just stop and think ... if you wish to write all sorts of cr*p about somebody and you don't want them to read it ..... just ghideh them! If you want to write all sorts of cr*p and not receive a response of any kind from a particular individual .... ghideh them!

Just to "hide" someone and then feel free to write "[email protected]" about someone would not be permitted. For one, mods would be immune from being "hidden," therefore, they could still catch any flaming directed at someone as a personal attack.

The purpose of the "hide" would not be to protect yourself from a reply from someone (though it could be used that way), the purpose would be to protect someone from constantly being "offended" by what you say based on their sensitivity for a topic that you have come to learn of. It could be seen as being courteous, -- such as when you are at a party, and you wish to talk about a topic you know someone else in the room is sensitive about, you lower your voice to talk about it to the person next to you, or you move into another room with the one you are talking with -- out of earshot from the one who is sensitive to the topic at hand, or perhaps the way you talk about it.


It's the final solution to a problem that all fora face!
Just stop and think about it! The ramifications are awesome! And I have no problem with earning the rights to exercise this gpowerh either.

I do think it has merit and it could be a command that sets this forum off from many others. I have not seen this command elsewhere. Just wondering if it hasn`t been done because the programming for making it possible for members to be do would be too hard to create without letting them have access to a control panel. ??? But, if it can only be done through the control panel of admin, then all "hides" bought by someone would have to be submitted to them and then they would have to execute the purchase.

(The only problem I can think of is ...... what happens if everyone chose to ghideh .... the same poster ....... ? How unfortunate for them that would be .....!

Like I said, controls could be put in place and my thought on it is just the basic thought. I think it can be improved with further deeper thought on the issue. Perhaps a person being "hidden" can only be done so by 5 people mazimum. So, let`s say I wanted to hide "Peter," and I pay 500 or 1000 points to do so. If Peter has already been hidden by 5 people then I would get a reply telling me that the purchase can not be executed because he is already "hidden" by 5 people.

Also, the "hide" purchase could probably be purchased for different time duration. Say, 500 points for 3 months before it expires. 1000 points for 5 months. 2000 points for one year.

And for those who would hate to be hidden, they would have the right to purchase "hide" insurance which would prevent them from being hidden. But, as we know in the real world, insurance is expensive. A system of payments per month, quarter, year could be installed.

And, for those who didn`t buy insurance, but wants to overide someone`s hide to have it canceled, an "overide" option could be purchased -- this would be more expensive than the person`s "hide" that was bought.


Perhaps the moderators et al would give this more serious thought, and not dismiss it too lightly ..... ?
Excellent and innovative suggestion. A final solution indeed!
W

I am sure it could be improved, but I think having a small economy of things to purchase to help smooth out the bumps between people who are offended by opinions, ideas, and styles, could help make the forum more enjoyable to others who are listening in. Until now, all responsibility is on the shoulder of the audience of the posts, and they are the ones who must exercise the responsibility to put someone on the "ignore" list. However, many people just do not have the discipline or they have too much curiosity to take that step. Why not give some power to the creator of the thread and post and make the rep as currency for members here.

People wanting to have currency to spend it could cause some behaviour modification. After all, if they don`t get any money, they are the poor of the forum and the only thing they would have would just be the traditional "ignore" button, but that poor status of theirs would be due to them not being awarded rep just because they have not been helpful by posting or creating threads in a style that move people to give them rep.

I really do think having an economy where the rep is earned as money to purchase some things is what would spark a lot more participation.

Sensuikan San
10-04-06, 04:56
I agree. Your comments and additional suggestions make much sense and are well founded. (Although I must confess ... I couldn't be sure wether you were being serious or sarcastic .....)

I don't think that the coding required would actually be that complex ... but i do have one concern. In choosing just whom one wanted to hide .... it's quite possible that one would be presented with a dialogue box containing 17,066 names .... just a thought ... but what the heck!

Other than that .... let's go for it !

(It's you're idea ... I'll let you do the negotiating and take the kudos ... my treat ... but I will back you up ....!)

΂񂴂!

W

Reiku
10-04-06, 08:07
Stop! .......Everybody!
In fact, SVF has a most wonderful idea here!
I endorse it; and endorse it wholeheartedly.
Just stop and think ... if you wish to write all sorts of cr*p about somebody and you don't want them to read it ..... just ghideh them! If you want to write all sorts of cr*p and not receive a response of any kind from a particular individual .... ghideh them!
It's the final solution to a problem that all fora face!
Just stop and think about it! The ramifications are awesome! And I have no problem with earning the rights to exercise this gpowerh either.
(The only problem I can think of is ...... what happens if everyone chose to ghideh .... the same poster ....... ? How unfortunate for them that would be .....! But, I digress ....)
Perhaps the moderators et al would give this more serious thought, and not dismiss it too lightly ..... ?
Excellent and innovative suggestion. A final solution indeed!
W

The idea has it's merits--but ultimately I think it defeats the purpose of a public forum.

If you want to communiate or discuss something with only a select group, you should use PM's or e-mail. Though perhaps expanding the PM system or allowing special rooms in chat to facilitate this could be a good idea.

strongvoicesforward
10-04-06, 09:00
Nothing about the suggestion refers to making so you are speaking to just a "select" group. Hundreds of people may be lurking in on discussions at any given point. Making it so that one particular person is always offended by what you say on a topic or your style, is just courteous and shielding him from what he is sensitive to.

I also clearly said that there could be some definite controls on this so that a person cannot "hide" ten, twenty, or even thirty people. It would be costly and a limit on "time" and "number" would make it so that in no way could it be abused.

A public forum is great. But, we have seen here that some just cannot handle opinions and styles without them trying to shut the discussion down because they don`t conform to what they or their clique feels like is the way things should be put forth -- in effect, not wanting everyone to have their own style.

----------------------------------------------------
*I would suggest that some joining this thread at this spot, go up about 5 or 6 posts and read the innitial suggestion and the ones following it by me.

Mikawa Ossan
10-04-06, 12:01
Personally I don't like the idea of a "hide" system, but the idea of using rep points as some kind of "cash" seems interesting to me indeed!

Elizabeth
10-04-06, 12:22
Thomas & Co. made this forum the way it is and I don't think it's anyone's place to come in and so strongly suggest making dramatic changes. Of course, Thomas & Co. have the right to say no, but I, myself, would never even consider suggesting to make any major changes, because I would(and do) feel it is upon myself(and no one else) to behave.
My impression has also always been that Thomas himself doesn't even fully support the rep system (or at least the way it has evolved) which makes this entire discussion and round of suggestions a bit absurd. On a side note, it would be wonderful if he (and his soothing presense :-) could be around more actively ! Hopefully that will start to change with the splitting of the servers and a strategy for resolving some of these issues will become a little clearer. :souka:

Flanker
27-04-06, 01:19
I have a question about the ignore list. Will people know that you blocked them?

Glenn
27-04-06, 03:03
No, they won't.

Flanker
27-04-06, 04:09
Thank you very much, Glenn! ^_^

Hachiro
27-04-06, 09:05
With all due respect to all the comments so far regarding the idea of having a "hide" feature I would like to add my comments to this.

Firstly I think that the majority of people posting here are adults, and to that should be able to control their thoughts feelings and emotions regarding what they write on an open message board such as this. Moderators are on hand to "moderate" the discussions and imho are doing an admirable job.

I'm sorry but even with all the comments made so far about this proposal I for one think that it is in effect rather childish. "I don't like that he or she can read what I am writing even though I have them on ignore" "If you can't play my way I am going to take my toys home" kind of response.

If a poster feels that strongly about having one person or another not reading their posts then they should consider the way they are posting their material that provokes such a response. Trolls here are dealt with rather quickly so that should not be a concern. Just because one is selfish about how others respond to them is, once again imho, childish.

"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time" (or something like that) comes to mind.

If one is so overly sensitive to the point that they don't want others reading and responding to their posts, then they should consider if a forum like this is the place for them to be discussing diversive or argumentative issues. One of the purposes of an open forum such as this is to allow people, within reason, to state their feelings, opinions, thoughts and beliefs about various topics. You defeat the purpose of a board such as this and end up creating cliques of people that view like issues in the same way. You become or create a "cult" of like-minded people and end up being narrow minded and NOT open to others opinions, like them or not.

I will say this, if and when this proposed feature becomes a "fact", (which I sincerely hope doesnt) it will be the LAST time I EVER post here. I may be a "newbie" to many and thereby my comments will be dismissed out of hand yet I feel that to in effect add a "censorship" type of function to be placed into effect defeats the freedom that one has to post or not post here.

Hachiro
27-04-06, 11:39
While svf has strong views, some that I may agree with and others that I don't I find fault with his logic in this proposal about a hide function.


This command would let us list who we don`t want our posts to be viewed by. That way, those who are known to be too sensitive or antagonistic whenever a new post or thread is written on a certain topic, can be kept from becomng insulted or offended because of their sensitivities to a topic by preventing them from viewing it. I guess that would be kind of like empowering members limited powers of banning certain people just from viewing what they have to say on something.

This is a form of censorship wouldn't you agree? By advocating a move such as this you would control your audience, no matter how altruistic the motives may be. How does one make a decision on whether or not a person is going to be offended? If you know that "someone" is going to be offended by your post(s) why make the post in the first place?


The purpose of the "hide" would not be to protect yourself from a reply from someone (though it could be used that way), the purpose would be to protect someone from constantly being "offended" by what you say based on their sensitivity for a topic that you have come to learn of. It could be seen as being courteous, -- such as when you are at a party, and you wish to talk about a topic you know someone else in the room is sensitive about, you lower your voice to talk about it to the person next to you, or you move into another room with the one you are talking with -- out of earshot from the one who is sensitive to the topic at hand, or perhaps the way you talk about it.


You are repeating yourself here about being courteous. If that is the case then you as the poster have the responsibility to write your posts in such a manner as not to offend the reader. You take away a readers opportunity to read what you have written and you also will run the risk of comments being placed in response to your threads that others are hidden from and then having the hidden person respond to those comments. Thereby again running the risks of having a thread shot to heck and pulled off topic in a desire to "protect" a person from being offended from your posts. You would also offend more people when you place them on "hide" because then they would also only be able to participate in a portion of a thread, it would end up being similar to only hearing a part of a conversation and not in its entirety.

Then to take that to the next logical step, to prevent miscommunication, misunderstanding and topics being pulled off thread you would have to limit access to entire threads. Because you dont want people participating in only half of a conversation now would you? The next logical conclusion would be to have to make the obvious request that people be banned or hidden from topics or threads that YOU deemed inapropriate out of concerns for their feelings. Do you follow where this is going to?


Nothing about the suggestion refers to making so you are speaking to just a "select" group. Hundreds of people may be lurking in on discussions at any given point. Making it so that one particular person is always offended by what you say on a topic or your style, is just courteous and shielding him from what he is sensitive to.

I also clearly said that there could be some definite controls on this so that a person cannot "hide" ten, twenty, or even thirty people. It would be costly and a limit on "time" and "number" would make it so that in no way could it be abused.

A public forum is great. But, we have seen here that some just cannot handle opinions and styles without them trying to shut the discussion down because they don`t conform to what they or their clique feels like is the way things should be put forth -- in effect, not wanting everyone to have their own style.

Whether it be one person or 100 to in effect "ban" a person from a topic for whatever reason is censoring that persons rights as a member here. From this proposal you end up making this board into a back scratching club where members would end up fighting for "rep" points to hide people that they didn't like. I shut off my reputation points because of the fact that I am not posting here for my ego, nor to ask for people to add to my reputation. I am who I am, whether or not you agree with me is your choice, just as I have the choice to agree with you or not.

SVF you have strong opinions on topics that bring out a variety of opinions from various members. In this case I have a strong opinion against this proposal and hope that it never takes effect. In any way shape or form. Like I wrote in my previous post if it does take effect that will be the last day that I post here ever.

No-name
27-04-06, 16:42
If it is an open forum and you find a person's conduct offensive, should you not be allowed to comment on that? If you want to debate an idea that another has brought up, isn't that what this forum is about? I believe the moderators have been doing their job in keeping the discussions flowing and civil. I welcome people who disagree with me to post their opposition, to read and scrutinize and test. It is one way to learn new things about people and myself and to help me clarify my own opinions, thinking and logic. Truth in the absolute should thrive under such review.

My problems with SVF have nothing to do with his opinions and everything to do with conduct that I consider not only arrogance and trolling, but offensive, intolerant, and bigoted. (At least they were back in January and in the middle of March when I wasn't ignoring him. I couldn't tell you anything specific now.) I don't have a problem expressing this and I would like to have the opportunity at some time to directly address these matters. I understand these arguments bothered others, but my only complaints were about specific statements on specific points. However at this time I am reluctantly accepting the restrictions placed upon me and on this matter and I am informed that things do seem quieter and more civil. People seem to be glad to see this mess gone.

I'm all in favor of giving the moderators certain powers to control flaming and trolling. (Limited blocking seems a little off-- warn them and ask them to ignore the offender as I have been warned, and if they don't comply, ban them outright.) I am also of the opinion that when the lunch ladies ask you to play nice, you listen or get benched at recess. There is a point where we must allow the judgement of those in charge to take precedence for the purpose of order.

Mycernius
27-04-06, 16:55
I am also of the opinion that when the lunch ladies ask you to play nice, you listen or get benched at recess. There is a point where we must allow the jusdgement of those in charge to take precedence for the purpose of order.
We're lunch ladies! Do you think I would look good in a dress?
"sabro, what have you been up to?"
"SVF. Put that down. You don't know where it has been."
"George...Don't do that"
(With apologies to Joyce Grenfell)

Tsuyoiko
27-04-06, 17:17
Good boys get extra custard :cool: Bad boys stand in the corner with their hands on their heads. You have been warned. :p

RockLee
27-04-06, 23:18
Just not posting [email protected] seems better to me.That "hide" just won't work.
Also , rep has been disabled because of a good reason.

If you don't want a specific user to read something you wrote about him, just don't write it in the first place. Come on, this isn't a kindergarden you know !

No-name
28-04-06, 00:03
Some people like to rant uninterrupted and unchallenged. They don't need a "hide" function, they need a "soapbox" function. A forum is a back and forth flow of ideas. Not everyone likes what you say and some will answer you back for it. That's part of kindergarten too. Eat paste, nap, argue during kickball.

Hachiro
28-04-06, 01:24
Some people like to rant uninterrupted and unchallenged. They don't need a "hide" function, they need a "soapbox" function. A forum is a back and forth flow of ideas. Not everyone likes what you say and some will answer you back for it. That's part of kindergarten too. Eat paste, nap, argue during kickball.

Hey sabro did you go to the same kindergarten as me?:okashii:

No-name
28-04-06, 06:13
Now that I'm assistant principal I can eat all the paste I want, nap in my big chair and argue with freshmen.

Revenant
28-04-06, 08:33
If a poster feels that strongly about having one person or another not reading their posts then they should consider the way they are posting their material that provokes such a response.
One of the purposes of an open forum such as this is to allow people, within reason, to state their feelings, opinions, thoughts and beliefs about various topics. You defeat the purpose of a board such as this and end up creating cliques of people that view like issues in the same way. You become or create a "cult" of like-minded people and end up being narrow minded and NOT open to others opinions, like them or not.
Just not posting [email protected] seems better to me. That "hide" just won't work.
If you don't want a specific user to read something you wrote about him, just don't write it in the first place.I share their views.

Tsuyoiko
28-04-06, 11:36
The atmosphere around here has been kinda nice for a few days now. Let's just hope it continues :cool:

No-name
28-04-06, 16:46
I would echo what Hachiro said with very little to add.

How would the "hide" function differ in practice if you just put the person who offends you on "ignore"?

Hachiro
29-04-06, 00:13
I would echo what Hachiro said with very little to add.
How would the "hide" function differ in practice if you just put the person who offends you on "ignore"?

If you put someone on ignore you can not see their posts, but they can see yours. With the hide function, the person that you have chosen to be "hidden" from you would not be able to see your posts as well.

It is a form of banning, person by person.

Mikawa Ossan
29-04-06, 01:54
It is a form of banning, person by person.
I agree. It's a bit like having your cake and eating it too.

Sensuikan San
29-04-06, 05:51
The atmosphere around here has been kinda nice for a few days now. Let's just hope it continues :cool:
I agree - let's put it to bed!


It is a form of banning, person by person.

Of course it is!

Now .... everybody, go back to my post (#63), wherein I appeared to "agree" with the proposer of the "hide" function.

Read it carefully and read the wording well ....

Now ... read it again ....

OK!

Even the original proposer was dumb enough (or vain enough ... not surprisingly ... ) to believe that I meant what I said.

Do even you young Europeans not know the meaning of "Final Solution"
Of course it would be censorship! That was his whole thinking!

... it would also possibly be quite daunting - perhaps impossible - to program and put into effect.

It was a ridiculous, farcical suggestion! :nuts:

So .... fear it not ... it won't happen ... never ... no ... never ... !

Stop worrying about it! Wake up and smell the blasted coffee ... ! :banghead:

W

No-name
29-04-06, 08:12
Thanks Sensuikan San... irony and sarcasm gets lost in text sometimes, even with smilies.

The whole "hide" thing seems a bit odd. Why would I post something and not want others even a specific person to read it? If I can't see their response anyway, why should I care whether they can read my post or not? What does this accomplish?

Sensuikan San
30-04-06, 02:43
The whole "hide" thing seems a bit odd. Why would I post something and not want others even a specific person to read it? If I can't see their response anyway, why should I care whether they can read my post or not? What does this accomplish?

Absolutely nothing, my friend ... absolutely nothing!

W
:biggrin:

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 14:12
Now .... everybody, go back to my post (#63), wherein I appeared to "agree" with the proposer of the "hide" function.

Read it carefully and read the wording well ....

Now ... read it again ....

LOL!

Your humorous attempt at sarcasm seemed to have been lost on many, John.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 14:19
If you put someone on ignore you can not see their posts, but they can see yours. With the hide function, the person that you have chosen to be "hidden" from you would not be able to see your posts as well.
It is a form of banning, person by person.

I wouldn`t call it a form of "banning". "Banning" is more complete in not letting someone access to the site.

I would call it a form of respect for the person by making it so their sensitivities on a certain topic to not hurt them. As we have seen, some can`t handle strong debate on certain topics. "Hide" would never be allowed to be used to talk about a person on the forum. Moderators could make sure of that. Just topics. And there could be a limit.

Well, I`ve talked about it in detail before and some recent posts here are trying to mischaracturize what I suggested. The suggestion still stands. However, in all probability it will not be implemented. Fine with me.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 14:25
Just not posting [email protected] seems better to me.

Agreed.



That "hide" just won't work.

Has it ever been tried? How do you know?



Also , rep has been disabled because of a good reason.

To be clear, you mean "negative" rep.



If you don't want a specific user to read something you wrote about him, just don't write it in the first place.

Agreed again! People should stay on the message and not on the messenger. Can`t stop posting messages that bother people -- everybody is so different it would be impossible to have a discussion if you thought this topic and my opinion is going to bother so and so, so I had better not post it.



Come on, this isn't a kindergarden you know !

I know, but some don`t.

RockLee
01-05-06, 14:38
Is there something you want to tell us by highlighting the letters so you get "think" :?

Revenant
01-05-06, 16:30
It is possible to make strong debate without appearing insensitive or tactless.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 16:46
It is possible to make strong debate without appearing insensitive or tactless.

And those are subjective (but you might want to go up to the "whaling" thread to see some insensitive and tactless words thrown around at environmentalists or whale lovers).

Strong debate does not have to concern itself with the sensitivities of others. If that were a rule in debate, then anyone could claim their sensitivities have been insulted. Where do you lay the line in the sand?

Personally, I lay it at personal attacks, expletives, inciting hatred, violence and threats.

Witticisms and some poking fun of positions have often crept in debates throughout the ages and neither of them have lead to the charge of being totally inappropriate for debate.

Revenant
01-05-06, 16:56
Witticisms and some poking fun of positions have often crept in debates throughout the ages and neither of them have lead to the charge of being totally inappropriate for debate.They detract from actual debate, witticism nor poking fun mean you have even made an actual point.

Mycernius
01-05-06, 17:00
LOL!
Your humorous attempt at sarcasm seemed to have been lost on many, John.
Yourself included.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 17:26
Yourself included.

Yes, John had me fooled as well. I lose nothing admitting such -- just that I or some others here don`t understand his sarcasm, or could not or did not catch it. Just boring mechanics.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 17:32
They detract from actual debate,...

That is an opinion. Others may have a different one. I sure do, and another on the WOG thread found the witticisms humorous. Sometimes a sense of entertainement creeping in from time to time holds more to attention. But, then again, that is an opinion, too -- one held by many TV stations, programming, entertainment, and news outlets etc... as well...


...witticism nor poking fun mean you have even made an actual point.

Each audience member is different now, aren`t they? I have accepted a point on witticisms before. I don`t think I am so unique. Look at George Carlin. I think his witticisms have probably touched many who are teetering on the fence of belief and skepticism. Funny stuff he writes!

Revenant
01-05-06, 17:44
Hilarity doesn't mean one's opinion is correct.... that includes Carlin.

Of course his routines don't mention all aspects of religion, just those that he can make fun of, and those aspects that he can make fun of don't include all within said religion.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 17:56
Hilarity doesn't mean one's opinion is correct.... that includes Carlin.

Never said it was correct, did I? The point is that witticisms do have value.


Of course his routines don't mention all aspects of religion, just those that he can make fun of, and those aspects that he can make fun of don't include all within said religion.

So what? Has nothing to do with whether witticisms are acceptable in debates or criticisms of beliefs you feel are wrong. Known quotes that are even witty or take a jab at the purported truth of something are also used in rhetoric and debate. Are you denying that?

Anyway, Revenant, I think we have gone over this in extensive detail in Mitsuo Oda`s thread, "discussing religion: alternative views" and we are going to just repeat ourselves. We shouldn`t pull this thread too far off.

If you want to continue the discussion on witticisms then you might want to move it to that thread or create a new one titled, "Why witticisms are not permissable for debate." Just a suggestion.

Revenant
01-05-06, 18:20
Never said it was correct, did I?Didn't say you did.

Known quotes that are even witty or take a jab at the purported truth of something are also used in rhetoric and debate. Are you denying that?No, I'm saying if they aren't correct, they aren't terribly useful.

Revenant
01-05-06, 18:37
Just to hopefully make my position clear, in debate about topics of importance, I hardly see, for example, the debate of present day American politicians terribly useful. Their only objective is to win, and if they ignore or even state views of the opposing side that aren't exactly correct, it goes.

I know my views have been and can be incorrect, and so I attempt to look at everything objectively, setting aside as much as I can my particular feelings on the topic. I also appreciate those that aren't debating 'just to win the other side (or those following the debate) over', but to only add correct info related to the topic being discussed.

The truth doesn't need to poke at the other side, nor make incorrect witticisms, whether that be George Carlin or another. Good logic and reason stand well on their own.

strongvoicesforward
01-05-06, 19:09
I think mine and Revenant`s discussion between us was getting off the main point of this thread, so I answered Revenant`s last post HERE (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=341107#post341107) for those who want to keep following it.

Hachiro
01-05-06, 23:00
svf all I am going to do in reply to you is say that you are rather picky in what you choose to reply to. I nearly wrote a dmn essay on the subject and you replied to one little point. I will say this about you, when it is a subject that you are familiar or feeling stongly about you generally reply in a knowledgeable manner.

Yet in this case you obfusacate the issue. You are on weak ground here, I think you should just cut your loses and quit.


Your humorous attempt at sarcasm seemed to have been lost on many, John

It was lost on you as well as evidenced by you reply to his post #63 and your reply #64


I am glad you like the suggestion. Your comments, too (though not sure if you were being serious or sarcastic), are interesting. I will address some of them.

guru-guru pei!
Hiding is banning, that is black and white. Your logic in your reply to me about that is flawed. You are banning a person, not matter what you want to call it, from participating fully in the function of a topic here.

Use the ignore function, that's what its there for, plus YOU have to learn to post nicely.

Quit trying to make this into an issue about the sensitivities of others, when this is about you and people complaining or arguing about your thoughts and opinions, nothing else.

You thought you had a captive audience in support of you, fine, but remember not everyone feels the same as you do. Don't like hearing it? Use the ignore function, I am not going to be so childish as to "hide" you from my commentary about you, even though I think that these comments may hurt your feelings and sensitivities.

strongvoicesforward
02-05-06, 04:46
svf all I am going to do in reply to you is say that you are rather picky in what you choose to reply to.

Hachiro, of course I am picky on what I reply to. If I replied to every post on every thread, I would then be accused of flooding. I don`t see you replying to everything. But, hold on...I am going to go out of my way to answer your posts here, lest you think I am avoiding you.


I nearly wrote a damn essay on the subject and you replied to one little point.

Hachiro, I just saw your "essay" posts now when you pointed them out. I went back and saw their date is the 27th. On that day I think I was preparing to enter the hospital for surgery so my posting was far behind and has been. Sorry if you felt like I was slighting or ignoring you. If you had, or could read Japanese, you would have seen that I went into the hospital on that day because I wrote about it in the Japanese forum -- and then perhaps could have cut me some slack with rather just a reminder to please get back to your "essay".

Even now I am recovering and still a little slow at posting. Sorry to inconvenience you.


I will say this about you, when it is a subject that you are familiar or feeling stongly about you generally reply in a knowledgeable manner.

Why would I, or should I, or anyone, reply in a knowledgeable manner when the subject is something they are not familiar with or do not feel strongly about?


Yet in this case you obfusacate the issue. You are on weak ground here, I think you should just cut your loses and quit.

What have I loss? What have I obfuscated? The sub-title o this forum is: "Post your ideas, suggestions or complaints -- which is exactly what I have beenn doing. We are invited to do so. I respect this request so much that I even welcome your negative views on my suggestions. It is a ground for hashing out thoughts, ideas, and suggestions for the forum. I think I am honoring that with my suggestion. Admin can ignore it if they wish -- just as well as you can. Let ideas flow -- they sometimes lead to wonderful changes. Admin can pick and choose that which they feel will benefit the forum. However, I don`t think they want to quash people`s enthusiasm for posting ideas -- so long as they are not based on hatred.

------------------------------------------------
*I can`t help but wonder if you are going to respond to my "essays." Hurry hurry hurry. <snicker snicker> ;-)

strongvoicesforward
02-05-06, 05:23
SVF Quote:
Your humorous attempt at sarcasm seemed to have been lost on many, John



It was lost on you as well as evidenced by you reply to his post #63 and your reply #64

It sure was, and I admitted it clearly (though I did leave room for the possibility that he was being sarcastic when I first replied to him).

So what? What`s your point?

[QUOTE]guru-guru pei!
Hiding is banning, that is black and white. Your logic in your reply to me about that is flawed. You are banning a person, not matter what you want to call it, from participating fully in the function of a topic here.

I`m no guru. [Yes, I know you are being sarcastic.]

I explained a different analogy to it. I preferr mine. You prefer yours. Admin can choose which they like better. It doesn`t bother me in the least if they choose yours over mine.

Besides, my suggestion is a core idea -- it could morph into a better one. Perhaps admin, after noticing someone is too sensitive to a particular topic or person, could go into their control panels and lock in a hide on a particular person. This would be especially helpful for those who are the target of forum stalkers. I had my strange little fat stalking cat following me around the whole place being sensitive about everything and posting on my posts and threads pulling them off topic and targeting me, rather than the message of the posts. The "ignore" function doesn`t prevent that. A hide function would or could.

If a "hide" function were activated against a person by admin decision, I think it should only come from admin and not moderators. I think there would have to be some kind of public guidelines that clearly show the steps leading up to it. And, it should be done and utilized in rare occassions -- and like I said before, there could be a time limit on it.


Use the ignore function, that's what its there for,

The ignore function does not stop people who are overly sensitive from freaking out and becoming forum stalkers. it is good for the person mature enough to not want to see things that bother them, but it does nothing for the person who is the target of stalking.

YOu might say, "well, if someone is stalking you, then you should have admin talk to them," -- and that has been done. The only thing is, some will wait a week or month after they have been "ordered" to not post on or to someone, and then start testing the waters, posting here and there to see how far they can get away with "targeting" a certain persona again. And, if they have a sympathetic mod or two, that can be encouraged when a mod lets a friendship get in the way of a previous order laid down. We have seen that already. A "hide" would effectively take that out of the equation in extreme cases.


...plus YOU have to learn to post nicely.

lol. I do. But, are you being subjective in that suggestion? I don`t use vulgar language or threaten people. My ideas and constructs in debate do however frustrate people, though. I am not responsible for their frustration as a result of their inability to overcome obsticles presented to them in debate. Why should I make it easy for them?


Quit trying to make this into an issue about the sensitivities of others, ...

I don`t have to try -- it clearly is in many cases.

Traditionally, in society, non-religionists, vegetarians, and animal rightists have all been positions held by the minority, and those positions have often been viewed as suspicious. They attract a lot of attention from the majority that sees them as threatening their traditional ways. The forum here is a microcosm of the world, and we see those people upset with me because I fall into each one of those minority groups -- meaning I will bother a larger percentage of people.


when this is about you and people complaining or arguing about your thoughts and opinions, nothing else.

See above paragraph.


You thought you had a captive audience in support of you, fine, but remember not everyone feels the same as you do.

A few support me. But the majority do not because my views are the minority in society on almost every point that I described above. I am quite aware not everyone feels the same as I do. At times, it seems like I have had to fight hard for the right to put forth my ideas and opinions here. I have obeyed the rules of the forum in 99% (I may have brushed against them several times) of all my postings and threads and admin, not being captured by a clique has that that is true -- whether they agree with my views or not is irrelevant -- what is relevant is that they are non-biased and do not take prejudicial action against me based on any personal views. I do have to say they have shown great leadership in withstanding the calls for action against me.

Leadership is about leading and not falling prey to the lynch mob mentality -- even if the lynch mob has your deputies in it. To hold off the mob is admirable and the just leader executes fairness and justice justly -- not based on friendship or connections. Again, the forum is a microcosm of the world and we see this leadership/lynch mob mentality that plays out in the world being played out right here.


Don't like hearing it? Use the ignore function, I am not going to be so childish as to "hide" you from my commentary about you, even though I think that these comments may hurt your feelings and sensitivities.

lol. You would have no need to "hide" me from you, Hachiro -- because I have never stalked you because you upset me.

strongvoicesforward
02-05-06, 06:10
With all due respect to all the comments so far regarding the idea of having a "hide" feature I would like to add my comments to this.

They are welcomed.


Firstly I think that the majority of people posting here are adults, and to that should be able to control their thoughts feelings and emotions regarding what they write on an open message board such as this.

Then perhaps you are not aware of my famous stalker. Stalking is anything but mature and rather than waiting for admin to have to put an end to it, mods should have stepped in much sooner to do so when the pattern became quite evident.


Moderators are on hand to "moderate" the discussions and imho are doing an admirable job.

I think KNM is doing a great job. Let`s room for a lot of lattitude. I am usually a democrat in politics, but in referreing forums I like the adage, "Government that governs least, governs best," -- but stalkers should be governed harshly. Attatching to a persona just to drive them from the forum as their stated goal is childish (oh, and I do have the words of that).

Some mods may want to be introspective and ask themselves if they should taker moderator actions or issue admonitions when they have become invested in the debate. This should be done out of intellectual honesty and fairness to the spirit of debate. I am not saying this applies to just JREF, but rather any debate anywhere on any forum site. But, that is just my opinion -- but one I think most would reasonably agree with. I mean, imagine a debate between Bush and Kerry where all of the sudden the moderator jumped in and added their ideas and opinions to the debate. The candidate not holding the opinion of the other two (the mod being amongst them) would be at an unfair disadvantage.


I'm sorry but even with all the comments made so far about this proposal I for one think that it is in effect rather childish. "I don't like that he or she can read what I am writing even though I have them on ignore" "If you can't play my way I am going to take my toys home" kind of response.

Well, we have a different outlook on the issue, then. You seem to be looking at it in an elementary kind of way. Here is the adult analogy. I say it is more akin to, "I know that John gets all worked up and can`t control himself when this topic is broached where he can hear it, so I will lower my voice so that everyone can hear it except for him. We are not talking about him. Just respecting the fact he is sensitive and respecting the fact that others at this gathering don`t want to have their time soiled by his for certain indignation when he hears these topics and comments."

Now, which analogy is the more mature one? your "toy" one, or the one that many people use in gatherings as they circulate and talk with one another, knowing that there are those lose cannons amongst us?


If a poster feels that strongly about having one person or another not reading their posts then they should consider the way they are posting their material that provokes such a response.

Hachiro, I am a vegetarian, animal rightist, and non-theist-- practically the most minority of all as it cuts across socio-cultural traditions. My ideas are bound to upset someone. Are you saying I have to go through mental calculations to judge what is acceptable in topic and MANNER by way of how I post. For some, no matter how much I tip toe around an issue will cause them to take offense. I mean, "How dare I say a dolphin or a whale is as intelligent or more intelligent than humans?!!!" Why that will lead to some people saying I should be slapped around. Go up to the whaling thread if you don`t believe me. Or more directly, look HERE. (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=335125&postcount=2)

This person that was quoted put their opinion in a polite way but look how it was reacted to.

If you have an objection with anything in particular (and that which shows a clear majority of my posts are such) with how I put something across to make a point or debate that egregiously goes against forum rules, then bring it forth. I want you to show me RIGHT NOW!


"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time" (or something like that) comes to mind.
If one is so overly sensitive to the point that they don't want others reading and responding to their posts, then they should consider if a forum like this is the place for them to be discussing diversive or argumentative issues.

Hachiro, you keep missing the point -- it is not about being senstive to people responding to your posts, it is about people being sensitive to reading certain ideas that are contrary to their cherrished beliefs.


One of the purposes of an open forum such as this is to allow people, within reason, to state their feelings, opinions, thoughts and beliefs about various topics. You defeat the purpose of a board such as this and end up creating cliques of people that view like issues in the same way.

Well said. We agree. You support what I have been saying often. Cliques suck and the guilty parties be it, high school, sports team, work, forums, etc... should know who they are. But, those in the clique will find safety and comfort there. They may not see them as so bad. But woe to the person on the outside -- a lynch mob mentality confronts them at every corner. They are only fortunate if they have a person of power that can administer justice fairly without bias -- that often means holding back the mob. And they are great for as long as they can succeed at that.


You become or create a "cult" of like-minded people and end up being narrow minded and NOT open to others opinions, like them or not.

Yes and no. The clique can become a cult, but are only dangerous when they have power to act against those who are not with them. It is ok for people to have come to a conclusion on an idea or opinion and from there on debate it to champion it in order to move a society on the spectrum of beliefs by convincing them. Nothing wrong with that, so long as coercion is not part of the mix.


I will say this, if and when this proposed feature becomes a "fact", (which I sincerely hope doesnt) it will be the LAST time I EVER post here. I may be a "newbie" to many and thereby my comments will be dismissed out of hand yet I feel that to in effect add a "censorship" type of function to be placed into effect defeats the freedom that one has to post or not post here.

I don`t think you have much to worry about, Hachiro. This idea has been floated around for about a month now and admin has shown no interest in it. It doesn`t bother me. It was just an idea -- a suggestion -- which the forum makes room for for discussion. That is what forums are about. Wouldn`t you agree.

Personally though, I still think it has merit to affect the stalkers amongst us.

strongvoicesforward
02-05-06, 08:05
While svf has strong views, some that I may agree with and others that I don't I find fault with his logic in this proposal about a hide function.

Well, I am glad you do agree with some of my strong views. Let us know which ones in particular on the appropriate threads. As you know, I am often in the minority. Would be nice to see a person who agrees with a view of mine to speak out on it if in fact they do agree. Sometimes I would imagine, people are afraid to agree with the "out of clique" person, for fear of being targeted by the clique. You wouldn`t be guilty of holding agreement out in public for fear of that, would you, Hachiro?


SVF saud:This command ["hide" command] would let us list who we don`t want our posts to be viewed by. That way, those who are known to be too sensitive or antagonistic whenever a new post or thread is written on a certain topic, can be kept from becomng insulted or offended because of their sensitivities to a topic by preventing them from viewing it. I guess that would be kind of like empowering members limited powers of banning certain people just from viewing what they have to say on something.



This is a form of censorship wouldn't you agree?

It is a form of control. The forum rules themselves are a form of control.


By advocating a move such as this you would control your audience, no matter how altruistic the motives may be. How does one make a decision on whether or not a person is going to be offended?

Past actions by an individual would be a strong indicator.


If you know that "someone" is going to be offended by your post(s) why make the post in the first place?

Intellectual honesty can be done in one`s own unique style of commenting, provided vulgarities and expletives and threats of violence and overt messages to incite hate are not the tools used.


You are repeating yourself here about being courteous. If that is the case then you as the poster have the responsibility to write your posts in such a manner as not to offend the reader.

I am a minority in the culturural socio world -- hence my views are bound to upset someone when I post them as my conclusions. I do not have to lace them with "In my opinion" or "In my humble opinion." I can boldly claim, "God "A" is fictitious" and that may upset someone. It is the responsibility of those who read the message to respond maturely if the above infractions in vulgarities etc... are not set upon.


You take away a readers opportunity to read what you have written and you also will run the risk of comments being placed in response to your threads that others are hidden from and then having the hidden person respond to those comments. Thereby again running the risks of having a thread shot to heck and pulled off topic in a desire to "protect" a person from being offended from your posts. You would also offend more people when you place them on "hide" because then they would also only be able to participate in a portion of a thread, it would end up being similar to only hearing a part of a conversation and not in its entirety.

That is why a preliminary discussion such as this is valuable to discuss the pitfalls and how those could be avoided. Like I said, controls to limit any or most negative side affects could be put in place. The "hide" could be a request function to admin to bestow to someone who is being persued by someone across the forum. Admin my be reluctant to ban someone and having to referree all the time could be tiring for them and the mods. A "hide" would handle that easily.



Then to take that to the next logical step, to prevent miscommunication, misunderstanding and topics being pulled off thread you would have to limit access to entire threads. Because you dont want people participating in only half of a conversation now would you? The next logical conclusion would be to have to make the obvious request that people be banned or hidden from topics or threads that YOU deemed inapropriate out of concerns for their feelings. Do you follow where this is going to?

Sure. All good points, but not something that rocket scientry would be needed to overcome.


Whether it be one person or 100 to in effect "ban" a person from a topic for whatever reason is censoring that persons rights as a member here.

Do you think a person`s right extends to stalking? or ranting personally at the messenger instead of the message?


From this proposal you end up making this board into a back scratching club where members would end up fighting for "rep" points to hide people that they didn't like.

Well, I did say the "hide" if purchased through rep points should be expensive. I think that would mean someone would be spending an inordinate amount of time to get rep currency to "hide" someone, which may have a time limit. Which would mean, a person "hiding" someone for no valid reason would be wasting a lot of time, and probably tire of it sooner or later. That is why it doesn`t HAVE TO BE a purchase option. It could be a request to admin or done by admin through entering and locking our control panels on a hide of someone.

I think this should be done in only extreme cases, before banning someone from the community. Clearly not an action to take lightly. And, I also think it should be done to the one guilty of egregious behaviour jugded objectively -- not done to both members just because the two are engaged with one another. The point where the guilty party crossed the line is the point that shows guilt and that is to who the "hide" should be enacted on.


I shut off my reputation points because of the fact that I am not posting here for my ego, nor to ask for people to add to my reputation. I am who I am, whether or not you agree with me is your choice, just as I have the choice to agree with you or not.

It`s a personal choice. I sure do not pile on to help others in their quest to bash people down. Others have though. Surf around and you will see who the guilty parties are of that behaviour.


SVF you have strong opinions on topics that bring out a variety of opinions from various members. In this case I have a strong opinion against this proposal and hope that it never takes effect. In any way shape or form. Like I wrote in my previous post if it does take effect that will be the last day that I post here ever.

Well said. Well taken. YOur views are exactly what I was hoping the topic could bring about -- a discussion of the positives and the negatives. Thank you for adding your input on it.

Mikawa Ossan
03-05-06, 12:13
Don't ignore the ignore list.

It's good advice.

There's a certain member that I have on my ignore list. For some reason the way he posts things just rub me the wrong way. After putting this member on ignore, I certainly feel better and enjoy Jref more!

After all, I'm not here to feel bad. This is a community, and we should strive to at the very least coexist. Sometimes the ignore list is the best option to that end.

strongvoicesforward
03-05-06, 12:34
Don't ignore the ignore list.
It's good advice.
There's a certain member that I have on my ignore list. For some reason the way he posts things just rub me the wrong way. After putting this member on ignore, I certainly feel better and enjoy Jref more!
After all, I'm not here to feel bad. This is a community, and we should strive to at the very least coexist. Sometimes the ignore list is the best option to that end.

I understand. It is a nice relief for the mind to ignore that which tries to wake one`s self from a sleep. Many would like to keep ignoring the harsh realities of suffering and misery, and objecting to the style in which it is shown to them is often a convenient excuse to keep on ignoring.

Reminds me of The Matrix. Stay hooked up to the status quo and everything looks and feels rosey. But then, some just haven`t developed their voice to win in the arena of ideas. They disengage and bow out using other excuses for doing so rather than admitting that they are defending a defenseless position.

There is no special need or ability to strive and coexist. It is a fact. We do coexist. Perhaps you are meaning "peacefully." No conflict? right? Well, then perhaps JREF should make a rule there is no room for debate here anymore. Let`s just make one big super "Chit Chat"! Does that sound fun?

These forums can be a window to the outside world or to different mind sets that cause understanding how a certain subset of society thinks, views, and understands the world. I think there is the most value. And, in the outside world, man does not "coexist" peacefully with his fellow neighbors in different countries or with his environment or fellow creature beings.

Sorry that it bothers you, or my style does, but I put forth my views on those issues. But, then again, I have a sense you have not read this -- if in fact I the one you are referring to as being on your ignore list. <smile> ;-)

and...HAPPY MATRIX!

Mikawa Ossan
03-05-06, 12:41
1. What makes you think that I was referring to you? I wasn't.

2. The reason that person is on my ignore list has nothing to do with anything you put in your last post.

SVF, you shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

strongvoicesforward
03-05-06, 12:47
1. What makes you think that I was referring to you? I wasn't.
2. The reason that person is on my ignore list has nothing to do with anything you put in your last post.
SVF, you shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

Yes, Mikawa. Did you see the PM I immediately sent you after that? I was doing a little back peddling in that PM because I thought I had misinterpreted who you were referring to. But, the message can go out generally as a point about not ignoring views different than ours.

Again, sorry I had misinterpreted your "person" on your ignore list.

--SVF

Mikawa Ossan
03-05-06, 12:56
SVF, it's no problem, as I told you in my response to your PM.

To be honest, I wanted that post to have room for interpretation. You see, I think of this forum as a place to bounce ideas of one another and share thoughts and opinions, but I don't personally see it as a place to try to change other people's minds about issues.

Being a community, it is important that we get along to a certain degree. Of course we will differing opinions from time to time, and an occasional argument, but that's just natural.

RockLee
03-05-06, 13:02
I don't put people in an ignore list, I just don't reply or ignore their posts. It's not that in real life you can just put people in your own "ignore list" , is it :? If you are somewhat mature you just don't bother with him. Anyways, that's how I see it :)

Mikawa Ossan
03-05-06, 13:10
It's not that in real life you can just put people in your own "ignore list" , is it :?
True, but this forum is for entertainment purposes, is it not? Entertainment is not exactly real life, would you say?

As far as the maturity thing goes, I agree in principle. But here we have the option of the ignore list, which we don't in real life. I think that part of maturity is self-regulation. I have exercised my self-regulation in the form of the ignore list. If the ignore list is such a bad thing, then why bother keeping it?

EDIT: BTW, if I was an advisor are you are, RockLee, I wouldn't use the ignore list either. But that's because advisor's have more responsibilities than us plebians, and "ignoring" members is a kind of dereliction of duty, don't you think?

strongvoicesforward
03-05-06, 13:16
...but I don't personally see it as a place to try to change other people's minds about issues.

We will agree to disagree on this.

I don`t think we can change a person`s mind overnight here on this forum. But, over time. It is possible. Seeds of change can be planted, and if some are like me, even after signing off of JREF and turning off the computer, you may still be thinking about some of the points made by someone.

It happens to me all the time.



True, but this forum is for entertainment purposes, is it not? Entertainment is not exactly real life, would you say?


Some may view it as "entertainment" but I think that is a little insulting to JREF creators if that is the only box you are going to allow them to exist in. I think any conduit to communication can be a cog in social change.

Wouldn`t you agree to that? I think that is a rather fair statement.

Mikawa Ossan
03-05-06, 13:27
This is the first time we've engaged each other like this in a long time, isn't it! :wave:
We will agree to disagree on this.Oh yes, obviously so!

I don`t think we can change a person`s mind overnight here on this forum. But, over time. It is possible. Seeds of change can be planted, and if some are like me, even after signing off of JREF and turning off the computer, you may still be thinking about some of the points made by someone.
It happens to me all the time.Of course I agree with you. But I don't think that my way of thinking is inherently more "correct" than most other people's. Therefore I do not actively try to bring others to my way of thinking. If someone does start to think about something because of something I posted, of course I am happy about it and welcome their thoughts. But I don't mind particularly if they don't have second thoughts about my posts.

Of course I do from time to time offer advice. I hope the involved parties listen to it, but after all, it IS free advice.


Some may view it as "entertainment" but I think that is a little insulting to JREF creators if that is the only box you are going to allow them to exist in. I think any conduit to communication can be a cog in social change.
Wouldn`t you agree to that? I think that is a rather fair statement.Well, to make a L-O-N-G response rather short, I guess we can disagree on this, too. But that's mostly because I don't see social change to be nearly so compelling as you seem to. But that's fine with me.

strongvoicesforward
03-05-06, 13:49
All above, fair enough, Mikawa.

Nice engagement. I`m sure we will have more for each other in the future.

RockLee
04-05-06, 12:38
No more off topic's this time, ok ? Thank you !