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mad pierrot
18-10-04, 14:55
OK, here's the question:


Are you what you do, or what you think? In other words, do you judge a person by their intentions or their actions?

Example: Let's use Hitler. Suppose when he dropped out of art school, his body was taken control of by space aliens, demons, whatever. So, from that point on in his life he had no control over his actions. In fact, he loved Jewish people, didn't want to invade Poland, etc. But, since his body was being controlled by an outside influence, he was powerless to do anything but sit back and watch, horrified. Now imagine it's after World War II, he's been captured and put on trial. We know his body was being controlled. So, how do we judge him? His actions caused millions to die, so do we hold him accountable? Yet, he never wanted to hurt anyone, so is he innocent? Conversely, suppose someone wants to do something defined as wrong, like murder or rape, but never does because outside forces prevent him from doing it. Is he still innocent? (Never physically committed a crime, but wishes too.)

That's just an extreme example. But what I'm getting at is this: If a person lives contrary to their beliefs their whole life, and dies without anyone knowing it, did that person ever exist? Afterall, no one outside of the person in question would ever know since there was no action to objectify it.

Opinions, please.

Brooker
19-10-04, 06:09
Whoa man *turns on Pink Floyd and lights some incense* :hat: . That's a pretty far out scenario you've lined up there. That's a little too far fetched for me to be able to speculate on. But hey, if it could work for Hitler, I think aliens were controlling my body last week at the bar, geez. :mad:

As far as intentions and actions go, they're both important. For example, if someone kills another person and meant to, we call that murder, but if the person killed without intent we call that manslaughter (or bad luck) and the penalties are much less.

As far as aliens go, I think they definitely need to be penalized. Check out "Being John Malkovich".

mad pierrot
19-10-04, 06:27
As far as aliens go, I think they definitely need to be penalized. Check out "Being John Malkovich".

:D :D :D I wholeheartedly agree.

It seems to me that humanity can't make up its mind to judge a man on one or the other. I'd like to judge a man by his actions, but shouldn't intentions count for something? Suppose I intended to help, but my actions had effects to the contrary. I hope someone who understood my intentions would forgive me. Then again, what if Hitler did believe he was making the world a better place? Did he have good intentions, too?

What's the saying?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

What if my bad intentions were misunderstood by society as good? If everyone else in existence thought I was good, would I still be bad?

Brooker
19-10-04, 06:35
No one, including Hitler, ever thinks they're evil. I'm sure Hitler whole-heartedly believed he was doing the right thing. But you have to be held accountable for your actions. But the legal system and people's opinions are affected by intent. If you're helping an old lady across the street and you accidentally throw her in front of a moving bus, I think everyone would acknowledge that you're not a murderer.

mad pierrot
19-10-04, 09:49
If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it make a sound?

If you believe in something, but don't do anything about it, did your belief ever exist?

Sorry, but I've been tied up in metaphysics lately.

Satori
19-10-04, 10:41
Well, first of all, based on this statement:

*turns on Pink Floyd and lights some incense* :hat:
and this statatement:

Sorry, but I've been tied up in metaphysics lately.
I think I'd like to hang out with you two for a while!! :p


But as to the question at hand, I believe in the laws of karma--that there is always cause and effect--and we will always reap what we sow in life. Now, some people confuse that with punishment, but that's not really what karma is about. It's about learning. Of course, the lesson involved may feel like punishment at times, but it's really about learning and evolving as a human being in this world.

With respect to the person who is possessed by another entity, you would have to ask the question: What do they need to learn from that experience? Perhaps it is how to prevent outside influences and take better control of their bodies. That sort of thing can be prevented with training. But if they haven't quite learned that lesson yet, then a person who is possessed has to pay the consequences for the crimes other beings committed while using their body. Unless, of course, they are able to successfully plead insanity, in which case they would not be found guilty even though they did it. The same is true for someone who is given an unsafe dosage of medicine. Their actions would be out of their control, and if they can prove the medicine was given to them without their knowledge or in a negligent manner, they would be found innocent of any wrongdoing.

There are the laws of the land and then there are the laws of karma. Much different.

I do think intention is everything, though. For instance, let's say I give you both a lot of money. Now, on the surface that would appear like I've done a really nice thing, but if my intention is to control or manipulate you with that money, then what have I just created? Under the laws of the land, no problem. But under the laws of karma, I will reap according to my intentions in life. Perhaps I have just set myself up to be controlled and manipulated by others due to having done that to the two of you? With respect to Hitler, his intentions were to gain power and control over others, and he did not care about the lives of others and who he harmed in the process. He may have believed he was in the right and wasn't an evil person for doing so, but his intentions would say otherwise, IMO.

These are certainly interesting questions, and these are just my opinions, nothing more!

*Okay, pass that number over here, would you? Oops, did I say that? Lights up*

Brooker
19-10-04, 10:52
Satori wrote....

For instance, let's say I give you both a lot of money. Now, on the surface that would appear like I've done a really nice thing, but if my intention is to control or manipulate you with that money, then what have I just created?

So are you gonna give me some money now? :? Gimme gimme.

Good points as usual, Satori. :cool:

Satori
19-10-04, 10:53
Satori wrote....


So are you gonna give me some money now? :?

Good points as usual, Satori. :cool:

Boy, what is it with men wanting money from me? Even J-Bot wanted me to give him money! :rolleyes:

:D I love hanging out with you guys!! :p :cool:

mad pierrot
19-10-04, 14:52
Boy, what is it with men wanting money from me?

Heh heh, that's such a wide open statement....

:blush:

Joke!

So I'm thinking this: So many people live one way and think another, would the world be a better place if everyone actually lived their philosophy or not? For example, I'm sick of hearing people rave about how true Fight Club is and then go and buy brand name jeans and underwear. Or all the uber-religious people who constantly contradict themselves. On the other hand, if my neighbor really hates African Americans but doesn't kill them because he's afraid of the law, I would say it's a good thing.

Satori
19-10-04, 15:06
Heh heh, that's such a wide open statement....

:blush:

Joke!

:D :D Now that I think of it, I guess you're right! :blush:


So I'm thinking this: So many people live one way and think another, would the world be a better place if everyone actually lived their philosophy or not? For example, I'm sick of hearing people rave about how true Fight Club is and then go and buy brand name jeans and underwear. Or all the uber-religious people who constantly contradict themselves. On the other hand, if my neighbor really hates African Americans but doesn't kill them because he's afraid of the law, I would say it's a good thing.

Well, I try to walk the talk and live what I believe. Of course, there are some religious people (to take your example) who merely hide behind religion in order to look good and feel better about themselves. Those who are not very evolved tend to need a lot of rules to keep themselves in line, but those who are evolved are able to keep themselves in line. Does that make sense? :? Sorry, not sure I described that properly! :p

Winter
19-10-04, 18:20
OK, here's the question:


Are you what you do, or what you think? In other words, do you judge a person by their intentions or their actions?

Example: Let's use Hitler. Suppose when he dropped out of art school, his body was taken control of by space aliens, demons, whatever. So, from that point on in his life he had no control over his actions. In fact, he loved Jewish people, didn't want to invade Poland, etc. But, since his body was being controlled by an outside influence, he was powerless to do anything but sit back and watch, horrified. Now imagine it's after World War II, he's been captured and put on trial. We know his body was being controlled. So, how do we judge him? His actions caused millions to die, so do we hold him accountable? Yet, he never wanted to hurt anyone, so is he innocent?

If you can find the pupper master, and prove all that, then no he doesnt need to die. If not, let him swing.


Conversely, suppose someone wants to do something defined as wrong, like murder or rape, but never does because outside forces prevent him from doing it. Is he still innocent? (Never physically committed a crime, but wishes too.)

No.

I have murderous thoughts. Everyone does. Bad intention without action that doesnt lead to said things, shouldnt be punished. Thats just stupid.



That's just an extreme example. But what I'm getting at is this: If a person lives contrary to their beliefs their whole life, and dies without anyone knowing it, did that person ever exist? Afterall, no one outside of the person in question would ever know since there was no action to objectify it.

Opinions, please.

Of course they existed. Its like a tree falling in the woods. How can sound exist if there's no one there to hear it, right?

Thats a self-centered and silly way of thinking. Just because you cant hear it, doesnt mean it cant be heard. Just because you cant see things, doesnt mean they cant be seen. Just because the world didnt know of someone, doesnt mean they werent there.

TwistedMac
19-10-04, 20:35
If you can find the pupper master, and prove all that, then no he doesnt need to die. If not, let him swing.
what he said.



No.

I have murderous thoughts. Everyone does. Bad intention without action that doesnt lead to said things, shouldnt be punished. Thats just stupid.
can't say i have any recolection of ever having *murderous* thoughts, but i've had many-a thoughts of hurting people or doing naughty things..

I agree you can't hang someone on fleeting thoughts alone.


Of course they existed. Its like a tree falling in the woods. How can sound exist if there's no one there to hear it, right?

Thats a self-centered and silly way of thinking. Just because you cant hear it, doesnt mean it cant be heard. Just because you cant see things, doesnt mean they cant be seen. Just because the world didnt know of someone, doesnt mean they werent there.
nicely put. I concur.

mad pierrot
20-10-04, 08:28
I have murderous thoughts. Everyone does. Bad intention without action that doesnt lead to said things, shouldnt be punished. Thats just stupid.

I didn't say he should be punished. I wanted to know if you think he was innocent or not. (Innocence as free of moral wrong, not legal offense.) I sure as hell hope no one ever tries to punish me for my thoughts, nor would I suggest it. Do you think your murderous thoughs make you any less innocent than before you thought them? I enjoy imagining somethings now that I know I would never have dreamed of as a child.

Brb, my roof is collapsing....
Ok, back again.


Thats a self-centered and silly way of thinking. Just because you cant hear it, doesnt mean it cant be heard. Just because you cant see things, doesnt mean they cant be seen. Just because the world didnt know of someone, doesnt mean they werent there.


I don't doubt that in the slightest. At least, in the context I think you're referring to. What I meant was, how can I believe in the existence of anything outside of my own mind? Take this for example;

Satori said what Hitler's intentions were,
but she can't know what Hitler's intentions truly were,
because she isn't Hitler.
Then again, maybe she could,
because I'm not Satori and can't read her mind,
how do I know that she can't read Hitler's mind?
So I don't know anything for certain outside of my own feeble experience.

Of course, I have to believe that this applies to others until I have another experience to tell me otherwise. Of course, like I said, for all I know "others" could be a figment of my imagination.

Now getting back to my original point, so no one really knows what's going on in anyone's mind at any given point, how can we possibly judge them fairly? How can anyone ever know the orginal intent of an action? There is no way of knowing if everyone is lying. One can only hope.

What was bothering me was any decision can be broken down to a loose chain of assumptions, and we all know what assumptions do. On the other hand, it's liberating, isn't it?

Brooker
20-10-04, 08:50
Well, in science, for example, it's said that you can never exactly predict the outcome of any experiment. All you can do is make observations and then predict the likelihood of various outcomes.

So, although you'll never know exactly what's going on in someone else's mind, through your own life experience and observations you might be able to make pretty good guesses about what's going on inside their minds. Sometimes you'll be right and sometimes you'll be wrong. Sometimes the outcome will be so unlikely that you could never have predicted it.

We might not know anything completely for sure, but we can make some pretty good educated guesses. If that weren't true, science wouldn't exist.

mad pierrot
20-10-04, 09:05
I'm know.

I'm just having fun.
:nuts:

I love hearing what other people have to say about these kinds of things. For example, I was particularly excited about Winter's little thread on the existence of perfection/nothingness. (Which is funny, because I don't believe in God but I do believe in nothingness . Go Figure.)

Besides, I've been stuck in my house for days, I need a little contact with outside intelligence.

(Been sick for 3 days, and now there are 2 Typhoons bearing down on my town.)

Brooker
20-10-04, 09:12
Think about this....

If God is infinite, and the universe is also infinite, will I have more luck with Japanese girls than with American girls. :D Just kidding.

How's your roof?

mad pierrot
22-10-04, 05:38
I was just reading "how's the roof" when the power went out...

:D

Well, Typhoon "Tokage" (Lizard) struck Wakayama pretty bad, but fortunately I got off with just some minor flooding in my house.

Read about it HERE. (http://www.7am.com/cgi-bin/wires02.cgi?1000_2004102106.htm) (about the Typhoon, not my house.)

Perhaps to bring this argument back down a bit, let me ask this: How many people do you know who are living in a fantasy word? A.K.A., that guy who thinks he's Bruce Lee reincarnated, god's gift to women, etc. I never think I am, but upon later reflection I always see I was. Does that make sense?

Brooker
22-10-04, 23:28
I don't know anyone who lives in a fantasy world like believing they're Jesus or anything. But a lot of people are living in a fantasy world when it comes to how they see themselves in some way. For example, maybe they think they're really smart, but they aren't or maybe they think they're really dumb, but they aren't. Many people don't have a very good picture of what their strenghths and weaknesses are. I always try to be realistic with myself about what I'm really like, which is difficult sometimes because it forces you to acknowledge your flaws.

mad pierrot
31-10-04, 12:27
Check out this link, read about the philosophy.

all those zombies... (http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/zombies.html)

No-name
04-11-04, 04:35
You are what you do. (You may also be what you ate)

Thor
07-11-04, 00:49
If you don't stand up for what you believe in, then you really don't believe in it do you?

Winter
07-11-04, 21:15
If you don't stand up for what you believe in, then you really don't believe in it do you?

Nice quote, but wrong.

There is a big difference from believing in something, to taking initiative for something.

Kamisama
07-11-04, 23:19
Such a simple answer. Everyone is interlinked and connected with everything they do. Everything is everyone no matter what they do.

The universe infinitely expands allowing anything to be possible.

Just believe that anything is possible. It's possible for you to jump that building, then again it's possible for you to fall. It all depends on factors that are linked together with you.

No-name
08-11-04, 07:26
To quote Keanu Reeves: "Whoa...."

december
08-11-04, 08:39
Hmm... I think a person's actions makes them what they are. A person that does bad things is a bad person, even if their intentions were good. The only thing one can do is feel sympathy for that person... it doesn't change the fact that the person is bad...

mad pierrot
08-11-04, 09:26
Who gets to decide which things are bad?

misa.j
10-11-04, 21:34
Who gets to decide which things are bad?

You, judges, observers, God...

People do most of the things they do without thinking about doing them in a daily baisis; actions are more like reactions that we rutinely repeat doing so.

Having said that I know that we still struggle when it comes to a decision making, make a bad decision and do not even try to go back. (e.g. I knew that I shouldn't have drunk last night, but I did, I feel pretty s****y today!) Any kind of actions have effects on our lives regardless the meaning of them.

For a respect to the question, I am not sure if I am what I think I am. I say things that I don't mean sometimes, and I act not like myself sometimes depending of the surroundings.