How do you define native English speaker?
- Thread starter seasurfer
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bossel said:
Just wondering, is there a different between the terms "first language" and "mother tongue"? Although it is used interchangeably most of the time, I still ponder if there is a significant different. For example, a person's mother tongue can be French, but in his whole life, he uses English as his major language to communicate, so, wouldn't that make his first language English?
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
MT & FL
I'm not quoting from a book, so please don't quote me without checking with an authoritative source. In colloquial speech 'mother tongue' and '1st language are often used to mean the same thing. However there seems to be a difference in context if one wants to pick the nits.
mother tongue
Loosely the language of one's country of birth, but this can be midleading at times. One's mother could speak a different language. Also, a country can have more than one language in use. For example, a child born in India to a mother speaking Hindi, Hindi would be his/her mother tongue.
first language
1) first national language
In a country with more than one language, the one which is recognised to be the primary language of communication can be termed 'first language.' The child in the above example would go to school and learn English because English is the nationally recognised language of communication. English would be his/her first language. English could not be a foreign language because it is the official language of all of India.
2) first (foreign) language
If that child also learned French in school, that would be his first foreign language.
3) first (idiosyncratic) language
If one has acquired several languages and prefers one over the others, tha language can be considered the person's first choice as a means of communication. Although not used often, I guess I can push this argument.
In short, mother tongue is what the child learns from the mother, and first language is the primarily accepted language of communication in a bilinagual/multilingual environment. One refers to the person's quality, the other to a linguistic environment. Neither has to be the language of the person's country of birth. If I want to be nit-picking ie.
I'm not quoting from a book, so please don't quote me without checking with an authoritative source. In colloquial speech 'mother tongue' and '1st language are often used to mean the same thing. However there seems to be a difference in context if one wants to pick the nits.
mother tongue
Loosely the language of one's country of birth, but this can be midleading at times. One's mother could speak a different language. Also, a country can have more than one language in use. For example, a child born in India to a mother speaking Hindi, Hindi would be his/her mother tongue.
first language
1) first national language
In a country with more than one language, the one which is recognised to be the primary language of communication can be termed 'first language.' The child in the above example would go to school and learn English because English is the nationally recognised language of communication. English would be his/her first language. English could not be a foreign language because it is the official language of all of India.
2) first (foreign) language
If that child also learned French in school, that would be his first foreign language.
3) first (idiosyncratic) language
If one has acquired several languages and prefers one over the others, tha language can be considered the person's first choice as a means of communication. Although not used often, I guess I can push this argument.
In short, mother tongue is what the child learns from the mother, and first language is the primarily accepted language of communication in a bilinagual/multilingual environment. One refers to the person's quality, the other to a linguistic environment. Neither has to be the language of the person's country of birth. If I want to be nit-picking ie.
lexico said:I'm not quoting from a book, so please don't quote me without checking with an authoritative source. In colloquial speech 'mother tongue' and '1st language are often used to mean the same thing. However there seems to be a difference in context if one wants to pick the nits.
mother tongue
Loosely the language of one's country of birth, but this can be midleading at times. One's mother could speak a different language. Also, a country can have more than one language in use. For example, a child born in India to a mother speaking Hindi, Hindi would be his/her mother tongue.
first language
1) first national language
In a country with more than one language, the one which is recognised to be the primary language of communication can be termed 'first language.' The child in the above example would go to school and learn English because English is the nationally recognised language of communication. English would be his/her first language. English could not be a foreign language because it is the official language of all of India.
2) first (foreign) language
If that child also learned French in school, that would be his first foreign language.
3) first (idiosyncratic) language
If one has acquired several languages and prefers one over the others, tha language can be considered the person's first choice as a means of communication. Although not used often, I guess I can push this argument.
In short, mother tongue is what the child learns from the mother, and first language is the primarily accepted language of communication in a bilinagual/multilingual environment. One refers to the person's quality, the other to a linguistic environment. Neither has to be the language of the person's country of birth. If I want to be nit-picking ie.
I like the way you define, but I am not nit-picking. I ask the opinion of this because it has to do with the definition of native speaker. By the way what is your definition of native speaker.
BrennaCeDria
Lovely Angel
I'd say a native-any-language speaker speaks the language that they used when learning how to speak to begin with. Although I like the idea of first-foreign language, because I'm about at the same place in my Japanese and French skills, but if I think in any language other than English, it's ALWAYS Japanese.
1st language & mother tongue are interchangeable, AFAIK. 1st language simply means the 1st one you learned as a child, which usually doesn't happen in school but in your family.seasurfer said:
It's obviously dependent on the definition, but for what I know, Lexico's interpretation of 1st language as "first national language" is not very popular. Maybe in China there is a certain nationalist attitude which leans in that direction. Someone from Guangdong learns as 1st language (mother tongue) Cantonese, 1st national language (the one learned at school) is Mandarin, though. I've noticed a certain tendency to even call Mandarin their mother tongue, although it actually is not.
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
Before I begin, I need admit that Bossels initial definiton of one's native language as one's first language is absolutely correct. My definition left it out because I needed to keep to the question I was trying to aswer. In conclusion, Bossel's usage will prove an acurate interpretation of native language in the majority of cases as you will see below.
Alternate definition of 1st language as a personal trait (as opposed to that of a linguistic setting)
A multilingual person always has one dominant language; often this is the language one communicates with others in a social context. This definiton would be similar to my previous post's 1st (idiosyncratic) language or an individual's language of choice. Choice would imply more practical fluency than personal preference which may sometimes differ from 1st (idiosyncratic) language.
Native language
1) the language of one's ethnic group (mother): again this can coincide with one's mother tongue, or the 1st language of the country one is born in.
2) the language of one's ethnic group (father/kinsmen) when the parents come from different linguistic groups
3) the languae of one's neighborhood if it is not the one(s) spoken at home.
4) the language of instruction at school
5) the language(s) on the job
To define a native language would involve all theste factors to determine one's dominant language; but few people would use this definition becasue it is too obscure.
In most cases, the mother, the neighborhood, the school, and the job should all coincide; hence the most direct and frequent denotation would be the mother tongue, or the first language the child comes into contact with from the mother.
Alternate definition of 1st language as a personal trait (as opposed to that of a linguistic setting)
A multilingual person always has one dominant language; often this is the language one communicates with others in a social context. This definiton would be similar to my previous post's 1st (idiosyncratic) language or an individual's language of choice. Choice would imply more practical fluency than personal preference which may sometimes differ from 1st (idiosyncratic) language.
Again since you like to be precise, let me try defining native language which can also have several connotations and denotations.seasurfer said:
Native language
1) the language of one's ethnic group (mother): again this can coincide with one's mother tongue, or the 1st language of the country one is born in.
2) the language of one's ethnic group (father/kinsmen) when the parents come from different linguistic groups
3) the languae of one's neighborhood if it is not the one(s) spoken at home.
4) the language of instruction at school
5) the language(s) on the job
To define a native language would involve all theste factors to determine one's dominant language; but few people would use this definition becasue it is too obscure.
In most cases, the mother, the neighborhood, the school, and the job should all coincide; hence the most direct and frequent denotation would be the mother tongue, or the first language the child comes into contact with from the mother.
Lexico, excellent definition. Bossel, under normal uncomplicated circumtances, I will tend to stick to your definition, and I believe it will suit most people.
However, let's see the situation below:
One of the very controversial examples is Singapore. Singapore was a British colony. After it gained independence from Britain, it still uses English as one of the official languages. Even though I say "one of", English is basically the only functioning official language.
A lot people in Singapore today speak only English at home, they are mostly of Chinese and Indian ethnic. The media language in the school is also English, all their textbooks, except those language books, are in English. Singaporean will need to sit GCE O-level in secondary school and GCE A-level in junior college, which are also in English.
I once read in a newspaper that western people do not consider Singaporean as a native English speaker. However, many Singaporean can only speak one fluent language which is English, if they are not considered a native English speaker, then what is their native language? Chinese or Tamil? If they can't even command Chinese or Tamil, how can they be considered a native speaker of these languages.
Many people today speak English as their first language. The problem is that many people today still have the perception that English belongs to white man living in UK, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Therefore only these people living in these countries or descendents of these people are considered a native speaker.
You can find similar situation in Malaysia, India, Philipines...etc.
The questions are: Is African American considered a native English speaker? Is Asian living in US who can only speak English considered a native English speaker? If the answer is yes to the above questions, then what about Singaporean, Malaysian, Indian, etc. who speaks English only?
Let's look at another situation that happens in Malaysia:
Malaysia was a British colony too, English is again one of the official language. During the colonial period, many people where taught to speak English only, hence the second generation of these people speak English at home, because their parents feel more comfortable to speak English over the other languages. Today, although, English still remain as the offical language of Malaysia, there is no such thing as "pure English school" in Malaysia anymore, English is considered a compulsory subject only. Malaysia is a multiracial, multireligious country, hence there is also a "multi-school system". Malay people tend to go the Malay schools, Chinese people tend to go to Chinese schools, and Indian people tend to go to Tamil schools. But everyone has to learn Malay and English as a subject in their school. The only different is that, the language that is used to conduct a class is in their own respective "mother tongue", so every race basically get to preserve their language.
Let's go back to the question, because "pure English school" was prevalent during the colonial time, many people sent their children to these schools, so these people speak English more often than any other languages. Let's take an example of a Chinese ethnic parent, when it comes to parenting, these people tend to teach their children English. This means that, when the child is born, the first language the child will hear is English, because "pure English school" don't exist in Malaysia anymore, the norm for a Chinese ethnic parent is to sent their children to a Chinese school. So these children will start to learn Mandarin in school now.
Under these circumstances, what is the mother tongue of these children? What is their first language? Are they considered a native speaker of English? Most of these children have very high competency in English.
However, let's see the situation below:
One of the very controversial examples is Singapore. Singapore was a British colony. After it gained independence from Britain, it still uses English as one of the official languages. Even though I say "one of", English is basically the only functioning official language.
A lot people in Singapore today speak only English at home, they are mostly of Chinese and Indian ethnic. The media language in the school is also English, all their textbooks, except those language books, are in English. Singaporean will need to sit GCE O-level in secondary school and GCE A-level in junior college, which are also in English.
I once read in a newspaper that western people do not consider Singaporean as a native English speaker. However, many Singaporean can only speak one fluent language which is English, if they are not considered a native English speaker, then what is their native language? Chinese or Tamil? If they can't even command Chinese or Tamil, how can they be considered a native speaker of these languages.
Many people today speak English as their first language. The problem is that many people today still have the perception that English belongs to white man living in UK, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Therefore only these people living in these countries or descendents of these people are considered a native speaker.
You can find similar situation in Malaysia, India, Philipines...etc.
The questions are: Is African American considered a native English speaker? Is Asian living in US who can only speak English considered a native English speaker? If the answer is yes to the above questions, then what about Singaporean, Malaysian, Indian, etc. who speaks English only?
Let's look at another situation that happens in Malaysia:
Malaysia was a British colony too, English is again one of the official language. During the colonial period, many people where taught to speak English only, hence the second generation of these people speak English at home, because their parents feel more comfortable to speak English over the other languages. Today, although, English still remain as the offical language of Malaysia, there is no such thing as "pure English school" in Malaysia anymore, English is considered a compulsory subject only. Malaysia is a multiracial, multireligious country, hence there is also a "multi-school system". Malay people tend to go the Malay schools, Chinese people tend to go to Chinese schools, and Indian people tend to go to Tamil schools. But everyone has to learn Malay and English as a subject in their school. The only different is that, the language that is used to conduct a class is in their own respective "mother tongue", so every race basically get to preserve their language.
Let's go back to the question, because "pure English school" was prevalent during the colonial time, many people sent their children to these schools, so these people speak English more often than any other languages. Let's take an example of a Chinese ethnic parent, when it comes to parenting, these people tend to teach their children English. This means that, when the child is born, the first language the child will hear is English, because "pure English school" don't exist in Malaysia anymore, the norm for a Chinese ethnic parent is to sent their children to a Chinese school. So these children will start to learn Mandarin in school now.
Under these circumstances, what is the mother tongue of these children? What is their first language? Are they considered a native speaker of English? Most of these children have very high competency in English.
Glenn
?J???n???g?I
seasurfer said:
Of course they are considered native English speakers. I don't see how there could be any doubt.
This reminds me of a friend of mine, whose parents speak Cantonese. They spoke Cantonese to him and his brother when they were kids, and still do, but both brothers I consider to be native speakers of English. They speak fluent and idiomatic English like everyone else around them, and in fact, while they can understand Cantonese, they cannot speak it.
seasurfer said:
Now this I find interesting. It seems to me that if people are taught a language only because it is the national language by people who don't have a command over it and it is the only language spoken by those people, then there would be native speakers of a language who don't sound like native speakers. I'm not sure what the case actually is in these countries -- i.e. who's teaching them -- so I can't say that that is the case. I wonder what the English of these countries sounds like, though.
I think, there are a lot of people who mistakenly identify ethnicity with language. I would still say you're only native speaker of a language when you learned it first, even if your speaking skills are considerably lower in your mother tongue than in another language. Nowhere is it said that native speakers should have a better command of their language than others.seasurfer said:
Eg. if someone grew up in Germany, with German as his mother tongue, moves to the US & lives there - say 20 years - without much contact to German speakers. His language skills in German most probably will deteriorate severely, while his English might arrive on native speaker level (Another question that arises is, what native speaker level actually is. There are a lot of native speakers who don't have what I would consider native speaker level. :? ). Yet, I would still consider him native German speaker.
As most definitions in linguistics this is probably open to discussion. This is just my stance.
bossel said:
The reason why so many Chinese will tend to say that their mother tongue is Mandarin rather than Cantonese is because Cantonese is not considered as a "proper language" in the Chinese community. Cantonese is considered a dialect in the Chinese community.
Of course, I knew this is very controversial. But before we get into this debate, one should define what is a "proper language" and what is a "dialect"?
Some facts about the Chinese dialects:
1. The national language of People's Republic of China (Mainland China) and Republic of China (Taiwan) is based on the Beijing's dialect. This means that Mandarin spoken today is based on Beijing's dialect. However, Beijing's dialect is not equivalent to Mandarin, you can learn standard Mandarin, and there are chances that you will not be able to comprehend a person speaking in Beijing's dialect.
2. Of all dialects in the Chinese community, only Mandarin and Cantonese have a proper writting system. The rest of the dialects, such as Hakka, Hokkien, Teochew, Taiwanese, Hainanese and etc, does not have a proper or complete writting system, they can only be taught verbally from generation to generation.
3. Although Cantonese has a writing system, the standard writing system is 100% the same as Mandarin, just that it is pronounced differently, the colloquial Cantonese is written using characters with sound but most of the time without meaning, and it can be unintelligible to people who don?ft know Cantonese.
If dialect is not a full-fledged language, the only full-fledged language that a Chinese will know is Mandarin, thus, when asked upon what is their mother tongue, so many Chinese will tend to answer Mandarin. Keep in mind that, since only Cantonese has a complete writing system, speaker of other dialects has to read written Chinese character in Mandarin, that is another reason why most Chinese say that their mother tongue is Mandarin. Imagine you can only read book in Mandarin, you can?ft read it in dialect. Imagine you can only write love letter to your girlfriend in Mandarin, you can't write it in dialect. Under of all these circumstances, if you are a Chinese, and being asked by a foreigner what is your mother tongue? How would you respond? Of course, some will argue that there are people who read Chinese script in dialect, which is possible, but not practical, and how many Chinese people can actually do that?
I suddenly thought of a question, if an American white man was born in China, and was educated there in their local Chinese school, I wonder if he will be considered a native speaker of Mandarin? Let?fs assume that he can speak mandarin far better than the average Chinese living in China.
The problem here is that there are several varying definitions for this. I tend to stick to the factor "mutual intelligibility." Since Mandarin & Cantonese are not mutually intelligible they are distinct languages. But I know that this is a problematic topic (esp. in China, for political reasons).seasurfer said:
I can't see why a "proper" (what would that be, BTW?) writing system should be necessary for a language to be recognised as such. That would mean that hundreds of languages (eg. of Amazonian Indians or Papuas) wouldn't be recognised for lack of a written standard.
Now you would have to define what a "full-fledged language" is.
That is again dependent on the definition you use. But human language as such is before all speech. Whether you are able to read or write doesn't matter for defining a communication system as language.
As I said, to me the language skills are largely irrelevant to the question whether something is your mother tongue, or not. More important is which language you learned first. Race is absolutely irrelevant.
If I & my girlfriend will ever have kids, they will grow up bilingually: German & Cantonese. They would be native Cantonese & German speakers, not Mandarin & German. Whether they would learn Mandarin at all is an open question.
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
True Bilingualism
But if the common language should be a third language, then the linguistic environment for the child becomes quite different. For example, if a German speaking father and a Cantonese speaking mother prefers to speak English without much trying to use either of their languages, the child may lose the opportunity to develop much language ability in either German or Cantonese, but speak only in English. What will be his native language then?
Returning to your example, your (future) child would be one of the rare instances of a true bilingualist, of which some people deny the existence or posssibility. Of course I am assuming that you (plural) will use both German AND Cantonese indiscriminately (without favoring one over the other) when your child is around.
This is interesting, because it didn't occur to me that modern (recent) child rearing is becoming more evenly divided between BOTH the mother and the father. Another factor that I failed to notice is whether the parents from the two different languages choose to speak in either language without individual preference.bossel said:
But if the common language should be a third language, then the linguistic environment for the child becomes quite different. For example, if a German speaking father and a Cantonese speaking mother prefers to speak English without much trying to use either of their languages, the child may lose the opportunity to develop much language ability in either German or Cantonese, but speak only in English. What will be his native language then?
Returning to your example, your (future) child would be one of the rare instances of a true bilingualist, of which some people deny the existence or posssibility. Of course I am assuming that you (plural) will use both German AND Cantonese indiscriminately (without favoring one over the other) when your child is around.
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quiet sunshine
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There're numerous dialects in China, from north to south, east to west,totally different,even a small place may have sevral dialects. In most time people speak their own dialect. In the place where I live many people can speak two dialects, what's their monther tongue? Sometimes I prefer to use Mandarin cause some words sounds wired if I use dialect to express them, what's my monther tongue then? I have no idea now. :?seasurfer said:
Republic of China? I don't agree with that.seasurfer said:
Do Cantonese have a writting system? I don't think so.seasurfer said:
We can read book in dialect. In fact, magistrates usually use dialect on a conference or when they make a speech.seasurfer said:
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
I'm actually extrapolating from the perceived American usage. When I was teaching English at a language institue in Korea, the headmaster once pointed out that to call "English instruction in Korea" TESOL or the teaching of English as a Secondary Language is incorreact, his reasoning being that English is not a recognized language of the country.bossel said:
Whereas in the US, (until several years ago when they changed the law) several states had officially recognized two-languages that required to have all government documents be accessible in both languages. So my term 'national' is just a rough approximation of politically independent units with people, land, and soverginty; not much to do with nationalism as maybe in PRC. Can you suggest a less problematic term so I can avoid misunderstanding in the future?
Glenn
?J???n???g?I
lexico said:
I have read that Japanese parents living in Hawaii who try to speak English to their children ultimately end up hurting their children's English pronunciation. It's better for parents to speak to their children in their own languages, and the child will be bilingual. If a German speaking father and a Cantonese speaking mother raise their child in an English speaking environment, I believe the child would be tri-lingual.
lexico
Chukchi Salmon
Continuing with Glenn's input......
I've also met several individuals from Korean-American parents. One person's parents were speaking only English in the house, but they were perfectly acculturated, and had no trouble being fully functional in the American environment although they retained some accent. The children spoke no Korean, and they excelled in English classes without any problem. But that would be an exceptional case of having super-parents, so to speak. In another case, the parents took the other route and spoke only Korean in the house. The child grew up without any problem in either Korean or English, and even majored in English and excelled in it.
Going back to Bossel's example, I must correct my statement "true bilingual" to "true multilingual in at least two languages," because I don't know what country the child will grow up in. If in an English speaking environment, the child will definitely grow up to become a "true trilingual" as you have pointed out. Thanks, I'm having a hard time keeping up with these language configurations!
In summary, the child will have two first languages from the mother and the father; a true native speaker of Cantonese and German.
Furthermore, (let's suppose in Japan) the child will gain Japanese from its neigborhood playmates and in school, and acquire Japanese upto a native speaker's proficiency although by definition, Japanese is not the native language of the child. Still, the child will become a true trilingual in Cantonese, German, and Japanese. :relief:
In your example, if the Japanese-American parents' English carried a heavy accent initially, it may hurt the child's English pronunciation especially in the early years. As time goes by, the child would mingle with the neighbors and eventually overcome much of his/her inherited accent, so to speak. Then in the long run, more damaging for the child's language development seems to be the psychological damage rather than pronunciation. A sense of insecurity or inferiority, if that was indeed the parent's attitude regarding native speakers' English, might be copied by the child although it wasn't necessary.Glenn said:
I've also met several individuals from Korean-American parents. One person's parents were speaking only English in the house, but they were perfectly acculturated, and had no trouble being fully functional in the American environment although they retained some accent. The children spoke no Korean, and they excelled in English classes without any problem. But that would be an exceptional case of having super-parents, so to speak. In another case, the parents took the other route and spoke only Korean in the house. The child grew up without any problem in either Korean or English, and even majored in English and excelled in it.
Going back to Bossel's example, I must correct my statement "true bilingual" to "true multilingual in at least two languages," because I don't know what country the child will grow up in. If in an English speaking environment, the child will definitely grow up to become a "true trilingual" as you have pointed out. Thanks, I'm having a hard time keeping up with these language configurations!
In summary, the child will have two first languages from the mother and the father; a true native speaker of Cantonese and German.
Furthermore, (let's suppose in Japan) the child will gain Japanese from its neigborhood playmates and in school, and acquire Japanese upto a native speaker's proficiency although by definition, Japanese is not the native language of the child. Still, the child will become a true trilingual in Cantonese, German, and Japanese. :relief:
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bossel said:
I can't agree more with you. But for the sake of discussion, I will stick to how the majority chinese perceive.
When I say full-fledged language, I mean a language that has a well recorded rules of grammar, well recorded rules of pronounciation and a well recorded way of writing. This is an open topic for everyone to discuss. It is too difficult to give a definition.bossel said:
I would consider those languages without a writing system an incomplete language, again, this is open for discussion, I can be wrong too.
bossel said:
I agree with you. I have been thinking in this direction too. But in the real world, most people may not think this way. Just as the example of a Singaporean, they learn English first, and they can speak very good English, just that they may not have a British or American accent. If this Singaporean wants to apply a job as an English teacher, and that company has strict native speaker requirement, this Singaporean guy may not get the job, he will not be considered a native speaker.
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