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View Full Version : Philosophical Question Number 5 (996 to go eh, Lexico!)



smoke
12-03-05, 20:09
I think this question depends more on people's beliefs and opinion rather than solid fact.

"What happens to you after you die?"

lexico
12-03-05, 22:37
Not just before, not during, not at the moment of death, but after ?
Not factual, but based on personal ideas ? I don't want to trivialize my answer, but there is so little to base my answer on. That being my small complaint, let me try anyway.

I presume the "you" in the question concerns identity as a person rather than physical existence. Identity, acording to Pascal I think, is the continuation of self-awareness. Since self-awareness is known to cease at the moment of death, there wouldn't be anything that I could properly call "me" in principle. At the same time I may be remembered or called by name by people who knew me, so I would still have that nominal existence whithout qualifying the exact nature of my post mortem existence. If there were such a thing that could be called a universal imprint, record, or memory of all events, the last imprint that I left behind would be my latest record of identity. With no more continuation of identity to establish beyond the point of death, that last record would nominally constitute my identity.

As a word or memory, that identity can either disappear within a short time, or experience certain changes by selective memory and live on for a while. In that sense, my identity, not as a living identity to be preceived and processed for meaning and verbalization within the self, but as a secondary identity only to experience change as a notion, will exist for an unknown period of time. Eventually even that will cease to exist due to dilution of memory or due to the death of the bearers of the memory. Since we live both physically and by the symbolic process of signification, I could say that 2ndary existence does have some meaning. That was as serious an aswer as I could give.

Index
13-03-05, 05:32
Physically, turn into fertilizer.
Conceptually, live on in the memories, hearts and imaginations of those who knew me personally or through the things I left behind (ideas, works, etc.)

Shooter452
14-03-05, 00:29
But I do not know. If I happened to be a committed Christian, I would have absolute faith and answer unhesitatingly about a hereafter. If I regarded all faith equally valueless I would answer the opposite way. But I lack the conviction of my own words to say with honesty either way. And this is more candor than I would normally share.

While I find the rituals and beliefs of Roman Catholicism comforting, I am not so sure of them that I regard my approaching death fondly (and it is approaching for all of us, gang). Still, I can see how it would be reassuring to believe that strongly. I wish that I did. I do not consider myself superior that I have doubts nor do I consider those who have none as being intellectually inferior.

But, the next time one of you gets to the other side of the Veil, send me back a letter so that way we all know!

Maciamo
14-03-05, 04:22
IMO, there is no such thing as a soul. I also believe in an eternal and infinite universe. Our body is matter and energy, and this matter and energy has always been and will always remain in the universe. As a result, when we die, we do not disappear and it does not end there. Our self-awareness may stop, but in an eternal universe, there will be an infinity of chances that the matter that makes up our body now will form an infinity of other life beings in the future (and did in the past). So when people ask me whether I believe in reincarnation, the answer is both yes and no. It is yes, but maybe not before zillions of years, and maybe not on the earth we know. In any way, we will have absolutely no memory of it.

From a short-term point of view, I agree with what lexico and Index said.

For those among you that believe in heaven (and/or hell), do you think it possible for humans to bring back a soul to earth once it has entered heaven ? What if we cryogenized a dead body, then once science permit it, repair the dead neurons and cells of the body so that the person not only gets back to life but keep (at least part of) his/her memory. This is possible. Death means death of the neurons (nerves and brain) of our body. More accurate laser surgery could one day repair the dead neurons and bring them back to life.

mad pierrot
14-03-05, 06:35
Physically, turn into fertilizer.
Conceptually, live on in the memories, hearts and imaginations of those who knew me personally or through the things I left behind (ideas, works, etc.)

Yeah what he said.

miu
14-03-05, 14:27
I don't know what happens after death but I've always imagined dying feels the same as the moment when you're waiting to fall asleep and you wonder what happens to your mind when you finally do fall asleep - it feels like entering a sort of void.

Since I don't really believe in heaven or any of that stuff, I don't think it's all that important to think about what happens after I die - it's more important what I do now. And even if I did believen in heaven, it'd still be more important to think about the present ^^; (but this isn't so much related to the actual question...) :sorry:

From my point of view, "What does dying feel like?" is a much more interesting question... That of course depends on how you die but suppose that it's a very peaceful death - what does it feel like? :souka:

Maciamo
14-03-05, 15:25
I don't know what happens after death but I've always imagined dying feels the same as the moment when you're waiting to fall asleep and you wonder what happens to your mind when you finally do fall asleep - it feels like entering a sort of void.

I imagine dying as a terribly painful experience, as every neuron of your brain and nerve of your body has to die. When your burn or cut yourself, you feel it because of the nerves that transmit it to your brain. So the pain is really in a tiny part of your brain that controls that small area of your body. Now imagine the pain if all the parts of your brain have to die (i.e. suffer so bad that the neurons finally explode) approximately at the same time (although it could last for several minutes, if not hours, as there is a stock of oxygen and reserve energy). This is 'dying'. All your memory, imagination, feelings, sense of your body, reasoning, etc. cry in pain and die. This is worst than how most people imagine hell. Well, if a person is completely disintegrated in a ultra-powerful explosion then we could imagine that we don't have the time to feel the pain. But death by lack of oxygen (eg. drowning, poisoning, heart attack, thrombosis, severe loss of blood, etc.) first result in losing control of one's body, faling semi-inconscious then feel each neuron die by asphixia, although you can't move a finger of your body.

Mycernius
14-03-05, 17:32
Cheers Maciamo san. That has made me feel great. I now intend to try and live forever, or die trying. :D
BTW the brain doesn't feel physical pain. The only pain you would feel would be emotional as you realise that these are the last thoughts that you will ever have. Your life would fade away, so I imagine it would actually feel as if you are falling asleep. As what happens after that no-one knows

TwistedMac
14-03-05, 17:35
I imagine dying as a terribly painful experience, as every neuron of your brain and nerve of your body has to die. When your burn or cut yourself, you feel it because of the nerves that transmit it to your brain. So the pain is really in a tiny part of your brain that controls that small area of your body. Now imagine the pain if all the parts of your brain have to die (i.e. suffer so bad that the neurons finally explode) approximately at the same time (although it could last for several minutes, if not hours, as there is a stock of oxygen and reserve energy). This is 'dying'. All your memory, imagination, feelings, sense of your body, reasoning, etc. cry in pain and die. This is worst than how most people imagine hell. Well, if a person is completely disintegrated in a ultra-powerful explosion then we could imagine that we don't have the time to feel the pain. But death by lack of oxygen (eg. drowning, poisoning, heart attack, thrombosis, severe loss of blood, etc.) first result in losing control of one's body, faling semi-inconscious then feel each neuron die by asphixia, although you can't move a finger of your body.
It's not impossible that you'll black out from the pain very early in that process though... I cling to that shred of hope myself.

miu
14-03-05, 21:07
Now imagine the pain if all the parts of your brain have to die (i.e. suffer so bad that the neurons finally explode) approximately at the same time (although it could last for several minutes, if not hours, as there is a stock of oxygen and reserve energy).

If all the parts exploded at the same time, it might be such an extreme experience that we would probably black out. If all areas start closing down at the same time, wouldn't it create a sort of short circuit in our brain? Can we process all that information at the same time so that we'd realise how much is actually going on?

smoke
15-03-05, 23:11
these are all interesting points and i believe that there is no such thing as a painless death (based more on word of mouth rather than fact).
However, this thread was more of a question on belief on things such as life after death, the after life and reincarnation (which has been touched upon). it's possible (if not probable) that i didn't realy make this clear...so apologies.
i agree with the point raised that energy does not disperse. energy exists in everything and, trying to remember back to high school science class, energy can not be destroyed.

lexico
16-03-05, 01:56
You don't have to apologize because you did make it very clear; but please understand how these threads grow like plants. You never know what the next move will be. It can be frustrating for the exacting philosopher, but it makes it so much funner for the mischievous like TwistedMac ... :biggrin:

You should realize that you are asking a lot. For the minority people of faith on this forum where self-proclaimed atheists reign to pronounce their religious beliefs is like asking a Jew to identify his/her ethnic identity in occupied France for example. No genuine offense meant btw. :biggrin:

A little textual history of the Christian bible may help ellucidate a further, more genuine difficulty for some Christian skeptics. If the question was asked in 70 or 80 CE, the answer would have been straightforward. Life after death would follow a judgement before the creator on which pended one of two results; all the Jews and the gentile justs who held on to faith in Christ the King shall be brought back to life in full flesh and blood to live in the Kingdom for eternity; the gentile unjust who refused the faith shall not be resurrected from death and perish into the earth as dust unto dust.

With the two major Jewish Revolutions failing, and the last of the 1st apostles and witnesses of Jesus dying by circa 90 CE, and the 2nd generation of faith who had not seen Jesus in person also dying out, the believers were disappointed that the announcement of impending end was not fulfilled. One adminstrative solution to the break in living tradition was to bring together all trustworthy accounts by the 1st generation of believers and fix the Christian canon. Therefore the answer to afterlife became a symbolic and futurist one as opposed to the literal "end of the world at hand." Likewise modern catechism teaches there are two moments to the end; your personal death and the judgement day when all will face the creator for the final decision.

In this age of relativity, even the faithful are not spared of the constant challenge from common sense and logic (Science, evolution, or the follies of creationism are no source of doubt, as some uninformed might claim). As for my personal view, I can honestly say that I do not know for sure. The will of the creator is not to be fathomed by the creature, but only imagined and speculated. Who knows what life after life will be like ? I hope it will have a giant library combining the greatest libraries in history, some good coffee stalls, and a gym would be nice. :evil:
O, of course I shouldn't forget wideband connection with google and JFORUM. I'd like to have some restaurants serving curry, chicken yakitori, konbu soup, with a good assortment of vegetables. :D

Frank D. White
16-03-05, 02:39
I'm going to a land populated by loving, purring cats who are tended by beautiful naked long black haired women!

Frank

:blush:

Martyr
17-03-05, 08:22
"I am not ashamed to admit that I am ignorant of what I do not know."

isayhello
17-03-05, 10:02
You just die. And it's gonna be scary as hell.

smoke
17-03-05, 14:56
You don't have to apologize because you did make it very clear; but please understand how these threads grow like plants. You never know what the next move will be. It can be frustrating for the exacting philosopher, but it makes it so much funner for the mischievous like TwistedMac ... :biggrin:

You should realize that you are asking a lot. For the minority people of faith on this forum where self-proclaimed atheists reign to pronounce their religious beliefs is like asking a Jew to identify his/her ethnic identity in occupied France for example. No genuine offense meant btw. :biggrin:

A little textual history of the Christian bible may help ellucidate a further, more genuine difficulty for some Christian skeptics. If the question was asked in 70 or 80 CE, the answer would have been straightforward. Life after death would follow a judgement before the creator on which pended one of two results; all the Jews and the gentile justs who held on to faith in Christ the King shall be brought back to life in full flesh and blood to live in the Kingdom for eternity; the gentile unjust who refused the faith shall not be resurrected from death and perish into the earth as dust unto dust.

With the two major Jewish Revolutions failing, and the last of the 1st apostles and witnesses of Jesus dying by circa 90 CE, and the 2nd generation of faith who had not seen Jesus in person also dying out, the believers were disappointed that the announcement of impending end was not fulfilled. One adminstrative solution to the break in living tradition was to bring together all trustworthy accounts by the 1st generation of believers and fix the Christian canon. Therefore the answer to afterlife became a symbolic and futurist one as opposed to the literal "end of the world at hand." Likewise modern catechism teaches there are two moments to the end; your personal death and the judgement day when all will face the creator for the final decision.

In this age of relativity, even the faithful are not spared of the constant challenge from common sense and logic (Science, evolution, or the follies of creationism are no source of doubt, as some uninformed might claim). As for my personal view, I can honestly say that I do not know for sure. The will of the creator is not to be fathomed by the creature, but only imagined and speculated. Who knows what life after life will be like ? I hope it will have a giant library combining the greatest libraries in history, some good coffee stalls, and a gym would be nice. :evil:
O, of course I shouldn't forget wideband connection with google and JFORUM. I'd like to have some restaurants serving curry, chicken yakitori, konbu soup, with a good assortment of vegetables. :D
i understand your point...
when i talk of beliefs i did not neccesarily refer to religeous beliefs as this is something that can become difficult to explain and something that i have little knowledge of (following no organised religion myself). i think instead of beliefs i should have said thoughts. and speculation is a good thing, i think to speculate about the only thing that is certain (death) is fantastic.
it's good to see people putting what they hope the after life is like.
Good on you Mr White...save me a space in that heaven of yours! (yes i know, following no religion means i have no heaven to go to!)
'isayhello' why do you feel it will be scary?

lexico
17-03-05, 15:07
You've got me hooked with your questions...and life is not the same.
I hope the philosopher is not bothered by performance anxiety.
I know it's more difficult to come up with good questions, but let's drop the "good" part, and have just plain vanilla questions.
Vanilla happens to be my favorite, as is plain rice, plain water, plain everything. :-)

Index
17-03-05, 15:43
You've got me hooked with your questions...and life is not the same.
I hope the philosopher is not bothered by performance anxiety.
I know it's more difficult to come up with good questions, but let's drop the "good" part, and have just plain vanilla questions.
Vanilla happens to be my favorite, as is plain rice, plain water, plain everything. :-)

Here here. I agree. Question number six please.....

kirei_na_me
17-03-05, 15:45
Physically, turn into fertilizer.
Conceptually, live on in the memories, hearts and imaginations of those who knew me personally or through the things I left behind (ideas, works, etc.)

Agree with you 100%.

That's exactly the way I feel.

smoke
17-03-05, 16:10
Here here. I agree. Question number six please.....
Dearest Lexico and Index,

Number six will follow shortly...currently i am working and wasting coporate time and the only philiosophising i can do is "Is it morally wrong to burn an office down?" (a question that requires no answers...but go ahead if you want!).
Expect to see number 6 sometime tonight (have to don my thinking cap as i believe a poor question would be a waste of exeryone's time). I would imagine about 6-7 hours from now! (no point putting times because i'm sure it's not currently 2pm everywhere!)
I am honestly pleased that people enjoy and indulge in my non-sensical questions and ramblings, even if my poor speeling (deliberate mistake, honestly!) and grammer,, is enough to keep everyone talking!

Peace for now!

Mycernius
17-03-05, 19:26
Dearest Lexico and Index,

Number six will follow shortly...currently i am working and wasting coporate time and the only philiosophising i can do is "Is it morally wrong to burn an office down?" (a question that requires no answers...but go ahead if you want!).
Expect to see number 6 sometime tonight (have to don my thinking cap as i believe a poor question would be a waste of exeryone's time). I would imagine about 6-7 hours from now! (no point putting times because i'm sure it's not currently 2pm everywhere!)
I am honestly pleased that people enjoy and indulge in my non-sensical questions and ramblings, even if my poor speeling (deliberate mistake, honestly!) and grammer,, is enough to keep everyone talking!

Peace for now!
It is morally wrong if you haven't reallocated to a better home anything you want out of there first. Just make sure it's late at night and you have a good alibi (you 'ain't seen me right and I didn't say that) :mad:

smoke
17-03-05, 21:27
It is morally wrong if you haven't reallocated to a better home anything you want out of there first. Just make sure it's late at night and you have a good alibi (you 'ain't seen me right and I didn't say that) :mad:
the only thing i want from that place is more money...which is unlikely.
and as for an alibi, i'd be proud and admit it! i'd be a hero!!!

isayhello
18-03-05, 19:47
'isayhello' why do you feel it will be scary?

Because it IS: The world will just keep on turning and everyone will keep on living, but I'll be.. nothing. The world is.. I can't imagine it without me, since ME is my point of view... (I don't make sense) And I know I won't be done living when I die - there'll be lots and lots of things I still wanna do and won't have time doing cause I'll be dead...
I don't want that at all. *cries* I don't wanna become fertilizer!

I'll never age and never die. I decided.

How could anyone NOT be scared of dying!?

*cries*

Ma Cherie
18-03-05, 20:02
Oh darling Isayhello, lot's of people fear death. Don't let the fear of death get to you. Okay dear? :-) Just simple words of comfort. Anywho, I have no idea as to where you go when you die. But then, coming from a Christian background I was taught that you either go to heaven or hell. Then, I have my own strange theories about the afterlife. :p

lexico
18-03-05, 20:52
This is the trouble with posing an abstract question to a mixed audience. Look what you've done, Smoke ! You've made our I_Say_Hello cry ! Don't you feel responsible for the undue sadness of a member ? How do you plan to compensate for the psychological damage ? :sick: :( :bawling:
When my kid was 4 or 5, he learned that everyone dies. He came up to me and said, "Dad, if everyone dies, does that mean you will die, too ?" I said, "Yes, I will die someday." As I said that, I realized I owed him an explanation. Not just the straightforward, logical one. So I continued.
"Son, of course I will die, but before I do that, there are certain things that's got to happen. First I will see you grow up, go to school, year after year, graduate, go to a bigger school, and graduate, and then you will get a job, maybe get married, have some children maybe, and see them grow up. So I don't think I'm going to die right away. Only after all these things happen, and then I might think about dying. 'Shall I die now, or later ?' So don't you worry. It still far ahead of you, and I'll be around you."

I looked into his eyes, and he seemed satisfied. I wasn't expecting that question, but was glad that I could come up with a reasonable answer without too much trouble. So to I_Say_Hello, I think you will have to do so many things before leaving earth and everyone behind. About half the 10,000 members will have to be dead before you can even qualify. I think first you will have to grow stinking old to make the ultimate jump into the netherworld. But your imagination is quite cute and lively. That life is so strong in you, I think even a major Tsunami in the North Atlantic couldn't kill you. Woudln't you say ? :-)

Doc
19-03-05, 08:50
Because it IS: The world will just keep on turning and everyone will keep on living, but I'll be.. nothing. The world is.. I can't imagine it without me, since ME is my point of view... (I don't make sense) And I know I won't be done living when I die - there'll be lots and lots of things I still wanna do and won't have time doing cause I'll be dead...
I don't want that at all. *cries* I don't wanna become fertilizer!

I'll never age and never die. I decided.

How could anyone NOT be scared of dying!?

*cries*

Death is a fickle thing. It is something we can never escape. In the cycle of life everything must end at one point or another for new things to be reborn. It is a way of life, and the way God intended it. I guess you could say that's why man will never cure all the world's diseases because of death. Death can be a scary thing, but not because of death itself. It's also not because you're afraid you'll never get to do the things you always want to do. It's because of the unknown relam of what comes after death. That's what scares the living hell out of people. Do we go to heaven? Do we go to hell? Do we go to a sort of limbo? Do we just watch over humanity? Do eventually cease to exist even as an enity? Do we get reborn? Is it just nothing be darkness? What happens exactly?

That's what scares everybody, and in every right should scare people. However, at the same time that fear should develop into something else; love. What I mean is, love for life. Live life everyday and live it the way want to. You never know when you're going to die, so live life now. Sometimes your time will come when it's not supposed to, and other times it will. We are all born with an experation date. That's why you should live life to the fullest. Even if you do, you'll still be unsatified. That what is a good thing. It makes you cherish life that much more. For if you have everything you wanted and did everything you wanted, there is no point in living anymore.

My advice to you isayhello is to live life to the fullest, and don't let the thought of death get you down. Doing so will leave you with apathy in the next life. Most people should be pissed when they die, but if you do when you're doing something you love to do, then there's no reason to be upset. Instead you should embrace your fate, and be prepared to see what's out there in the next life. As Tom Hanks once said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get."

Doc:(:bawling::(

TheKansaiKid
19-03-05, 09:40
I don't know if there is a heaven or hell after death, but I have the distinct feeling there is something. On the chance that there is a heaven I try to do as much good with the hand that's been dealt me as I can. Now before you call me an ignorant hick for believing in an afterlife let me tell you what I base my oppinion on. I have 3 children and moments after they were born I had the chance to hold them in my arms. It may be my overactive childish imagination, but from each of them just moments after birth I sensed the most wonderful.... well for lack of a better word lets call it energy. I got the distinct feeling that more than just a random collection of molecules organized by a chance combination of DNA, I was holding a being with its own unique energy. We all know from 5th grade science that energy is neither created nor destroyed, I have to think the beings that are my children will continue to exist in some way shape or form after the bodies they inhabit now are dust. Boy, I just reread what I wrote it sounds very cheesy, but thats how I feel.


it's just my oppinion

I could be wrong

smoke
20-03-05, 14:27
I don't know if there is a heaven or hell after death, but I have the distinct feeling there is something. On the chance that there is a heaven I try to do as much good with the hand that's been dealt me as I can. Now before you call me an ignorant hick for believing in an afterlife let me tell you what I base my oppinion on. I have 3 children and moments after they were born I had the chance to hold them in my arms. It may be my overactive childish imagination, but from each of them just moments after birth I sensed the most wonderful.... well for lack of a better word lets call it energy. I got the distinct feeling that more than just a random collection of molecules organized by a chance combination of DNA, I was holding a being with its own unique energy. We all know from 5th grade science that energy is neither created nor destroyed, I have to think the beings that are my children will continue to exist in some way shape or form after the bodies they inhabit now are dust. Boy, I just reread what I wrote it sounds very cheesy, but thats how I feel.


it's just my oppinion

I could be wrong
i believe there is no such thing as a 'wrong' opinion. As i've said before, i believe that opinions have more worth than fact (in some cases).
good post!

smoke
20-03-05, 14:34
Death is a fickle thing. It is something we can never escape. In the cycle of life everything must end at one point or another for new things to be reborn. It is a way of life, and the way God intended it. I guess you could say that's why man will never cure all the world's diseases because of death. Death can be a scary thing, but not because of death itself. It's also not because you're afraid you'll never get to do the things you always want to do. It's because of the unknown relam of what comes after death. That's what scares the living hell out of people. Do we go to heaven? Do we go to hell? Do we go to a sort of limbo? Do we just watch over humanity? Do eventually cease to exist even as an enity? Do we get reborn? Is it just nothing be darkness? What happens exactly?

That's what scares everybody, and in every right should scare people. However, at the same time that fear should develop into something else; love. What I mean is, love for life. Live life everyday and live it the way want to. You never know when you're going to die, so live life now. Sometimes your time will come when it's not supposed to, and other times it will. We are all born with an experation date. That's why you should live life to the fullest. Even if you do, you'll still be unsatified. That what is a good thing. It makes you cherish life that much more. For if you have everything you wanted and did everything you wanted, there is no point in living anymore.

My advice to you isayhello is to live life to the fullest, and don't let the thought of death get you down. Doing so will leave you with apathy in the next life. Most people should be pissed when they die, but if you do when you're doing something you love to do, then there's no reason to be upset. Instead you should embrace your fate, and be prepared to see what's out there in the next life. As Tom Hanks once said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get."

Doc:(:bawling::(

Doc,
you said everything that i was going to say to 'isayhello' and just generally about life. this is a great way to look at life!!!

i think there is a lot of confusion as to how to 'live life to the fullest'. I think a lot of people think that to live your life to the fullest you have to travel the entire globe, bungee jump, sky dive, get obliterated on alcohol, have copious amounts of sex with as many people as possible...and so on.
I think as life is such an individual thing, to live YOUR life to the fullest you have to do what makes YOU happy.
if you take great contentment from sitting on your ass playing video games and having a couple of smokes then you are living YOUR life to YOUR fullest.
to other people that may be deemed a waste of life...but who cares what others think, after all...it is your life.

isayhello
22-03-05, 23:13
Oh darling Isayhello, lot's of people fear death. Don't let the fear of death get to you. Okay dear? :-)

*moved* Wow. Thanks. I'll try. But thinking about it makes me fear it. The trick is not thinking about it at all... *tries not to think about it*

smoke
23-03-05, 21:57
*moved* Wow. Thanks. I'll try. But thinking about it makes me fear it. The trick is not thinking about it at all... *tries not to think about it*
oh, btw...sorry for making you cry! :sorry:
only think about death if you have choice in it!

isayhello
24-03-05, 14:11
Death is a fickle thing. It is something we can never escape. In the cycle of life everything must end at one point or another for new things to be reborn. It is a way of life, and the way God intended it. I guess you could say that's why man will never cure all the world's diseases because of death. Death can be a scary thing, but not because of death itself. It's also not because you're afraid you'll never get to do the things you always want to do. It's because of the unknown relam of what comes after death. That's what scares the living hell out of people. Do we go to heaven? Do we go to hell? Do we go to a sort of limbo? Do we just watch over humanity? Do eventually cease to exist even as an enity? Do we get reborn? Is it just nothing be darkness? What happens exactly?

That's what scares everybody, and in every right should scare people. However, at the same time that fear should develop into something else; love. What I mean is, love for life. Live life everyday and live it the way want to. You never know when you're going to die, so live life now. Sometimes your time will come when it's not supposed to, and other times it will. We are all born with an experation date. That's why you should live life to the fullest. Even if you do, you'll still be unsatified. That what is a good thing. It makes you cherish life that much more. For if you have everything you wanted and did everything you wanted, there is no point in living anymore.

My advice to you isayhello is to live life to the fullest, and don't let the thought of death get you down. Doing so will leave you with apathy in the next life. Most people should be pissed when they die, but if you do when you're doing something you love to do, then there's no reason to be upset. Instead you should embrace your fate, and be prepared to see what's out there in the next life. As Tom Hanks once said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get."

Doc:(:bawling::(

*has just read this post, missed it before*
:bawling: WOw, I'm soo moved!! *cries* Thats really nice! And well said too! (with a quote and everything...) And I guess you're right. I SHOULD embrace my fate and live my life to the fullest!!! *is filled with new fighting spirit* I'll do that! *rises from chair* I'll go out this very moment and meet life! *is getting to emotional* I'll... :?

Thanks for the good replies, Doc and Smoke... I really appreciate them! :cool:

Problem is, and I think I'm not the only one feeling this way, it's hard to realize your life is important as it is. I (and hopefully someone else) keep on dreaming about achieving something better, and it's hard accept ones life as it is, without whishing you had a better one. I keep on thinking, "if I do this, if I go there, if I do that.. THEN I'll be happy with my life and won't be afraid of dying"... Even if you told me to see that as something positive, not having all you want and not having done everything you want, I find it pretty hard doing so. But I'll try, because I find it would help me a great deal!

isayhello
24-03-05, 14:56
oh, btw...sorry for making you cry! :sorry:


No worry! :cool:

Doc
24-03-05, 20:56
Crying can be a good thing anyway. It helps you release you troubles.

Doc:ramen::happy:

Sensuikan San
25-03-05, 06:14
I'd like to think that I would find myself being held up by the ankles, smacked across the ass, and crying !

.... with a complete, full memory of everything that had gone before .... !

Regards,

W

Dutch Baka
31-03-05, 22:37
well i dont know if i believe in flying away, and see my own body, and see the light coming towards me ( the light that coming towards you is that your brain stop working, so you eye site get down, so a light comes,, mmm i dont know excatly how it was, i saw a really nice docu about it...to bad i can not remember everything... )

i think when i die, i will be reborn as somebody else, human, or animal.

EnzoHonda
02-04-05, 08:32
The ultimate question that can never be answered. Depending on the day, my opinion will change, but the following could sum up my feelings.
Things can not be created, can not be destroyed, they can only change form. I have to wonder if the human "spirit" is any different. By spirit I mean our ideas, hopes, opinions, thoughts, etc. They didn't come from nowhere, so how can they go to nowhere?

life
13-04-05, 15:13
Honestly , i also feel scared. maybe because i feel i'm not yet ready to leave the ones i love. But since death is inescapable, I'd like to cling to the Christian belief that after the physical death, we'll all have eternal life with God.

Pararousia
16-04-05, 19:07
One of my favorite, all time quotes was from an old friend of mine, who was a Jewish man who believed in Jesus, who used to say, gEvery body talks about Heaven, but nobody wants to go!h That line still makes me chuckle because itfs so true!

At the risk of sounding suicidal or like I have a death wish, I do indeed look forward to the next life very, very much. We tend to get tunnel vision here in this world, I think, perhaps because the physical things of this world wrap around us, smothering us, and veiling our eyes from spiritual realities.

My personal Christian beliefs do include an assured heavenly abode for both my physical body and soul/spirit where I will be in the presence of my Savior forever, free from sin, corruption (death is one form of corruption), and suffering. It wonft be Heaven because Ifll be alive again, or because my relatives may be there, or because it will be beautiful. It will be Heaven because there will no longer be barriers between me and my Creator/Father God.

Pachipro
29-04-05, 20:49
I may be ridiculed or flamed for this, but it is backed up by my own research these past 30 years. It is why I do not fear death. This is quite long. So grab a drink, relax, and enjoy. You can discount it if you want, but it is a true story.

I have read all the posts here and there is just too much for me to quote and comment on, but let me give you my opinion based on my research as this is a subject that has interested me ever since I had what is called an "SOBE" (Spontanious Out of Body Experience) some 30 years ago.

Background: I was visiting my sister in New York back in the 70's on vacation from university in Japan. We had stayed up for the better part of the night talking and imbibing in some alcohol. Around dawn we all went to bed. I was feeling good, but I was not stoned drunk.

I remember laying in bed on my left side in the fetal position. Suddenly I had distinct visions, like movie clips, of my life up till then. Very clear and very precise. Without warning I was suddenly above the bed looking down on my body! My first thought was that I had died. I thought the feeling was pretty cool. I was not afraid, or angry, or anything. I just thought, "Wow, I'm dead. Cool." I made the motions of putting my palms up to my face to look at my hands and said to myself, "I have no hands!" I then "looked" down like I was trying to look at my legs or lower body and said to myself, "I have no body!"

I thought this was really cool and started floating around the room. I said to myself that I wanted to pass through the walls into my sisters bedroom to see if they were there. Without any effort I was suddenly there looking down on my sister and her husband in bed. I then thought that I was really dead. But the feeling I had was the best I had ever felt in my life. I cannot explain it in words.

I then thought about my own body in the other room and suddenly I was there looking at myself on the bed. I then floated near the window and said to myself, "If I am dead I guess I'll try and visit my friends in Japan and see what they are doing." At this point I felt a strong tug and was "pulled" back to my body. "No! I don't want to go back! This feels too good!"

As much as I tried to resist I couldn't. I watched my body get closer and closer and without warning I opened my eyes, sat up in bed and said, "What the hell was that? That was no damn dream!"

Now, some may say that was just a dream or my imagination. But to them I say, do your research first on OBE's and NDE's (Near Death Experiences) before you make a statement like that. Through my research I have come to discover that I had what is coinsidered a very normal thing and was not a dream.

Since that experience I also started doing research into death and reincarnation. So what does happen to you at the moment of death?

Death: You are suddenly above your body looking down on the accident, or hospital bed, or wherever it was that you died. If you drowned, it was probably a rewarding experience as those that have nearly drowned say that the experience is phenominal. You are concious much as you would be in the physical body. If you selected to feel pain at the time of your death it will be quickly passed and forgotten about.

Remember, you have selected your time period, your parents, your gender, your country, your race, and your death based on what you need to learn in this existance.

You look around and see a light or tunnel and you gravitate towards it. (Anyone see the movie "Ghost" or "What Dreams May Come"?) The colors are indescribable. The feeling is one that you have never experienced before. It is "true love." As you travel down the tunnel of light you see loved ones and pets waiting for you on the other side welcoming you warmly. If it is not your time and you are only severly injured, say, you are told that it is not your time yet and you must go back to "complete your mission" whatever that may be.

If it is indeed your time you "cross over" to the afterlife. You meet with your loved ones and pets and are then given a life review of your most previous reincarnation. Every single microsecond of your life is reviewed and relived. However, it is not relived from your perspective, it is relived from the perspective and feelings of everyone you ever came in contact with in this existance.

If you caused pain and/or suffering to someone you will feel that pain and suffering from their perspective and feelings. In other words you will feel what they felt as you did it to them. If you caused good to someone you will also feel that good you did from their perspective and feelings.

There is no "time" as we know it on the physical plane, there is no heaven or hell and one is not punished for the bad deeds they comitted in the physical life as life is a learning experience. Here you learn from your mistakes. You are then allowed to view your "akashic records" which is a permanent record of every life you have ever lived.

You can then choose to be reborn or remain on the "other side." The choice is up to you. However, in order for the soul to advance more quickly, life on the physical plane is the fastest way. No one enters the physical world if one doesn't want to.

Therefore, the life you are living is the one you selected. (Are you listening isayhello?) Your parents are the ones you selected and you also selected your death. You have selected every experience, whether good or bad, that you will experience. It is up to you decide what decision to make when the time comes.

In previous lives you may have been your mothers brother or your fathers sister. Everyone changes roles throughout their lives on this plane. For one to believe that they have no soul or that life just ends and it is "lights out" they, based on my research, are just young souls who have not gone through enough lives to know the truth inside themselves. It is said that the "old souls know" the truth inside themselves.

This is why I do not adhere to any particular religion because they are holding back the truth in order to control the populace. To believe that this is the only life we will ever have and if we do not accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are condemned to hell is beyond me as that is NOT what Jesus taught! Based on this I guess my wife and I are going to hell because she is Japanese and believes otherwise and so do I.

If I were to follow any religion or teaching it would probably be the Buddhist teachings as theirs is the closest to what I have researched so far.

For more info on my research and life after death please check out these sites and click around. I think it will be an eye opening experience:

Dr. Raymond Moody, Phd (http://www.lifeafterlife.com/), Life After Life

Death is not the Final Chapter by Dannion Brinkley (http://www.dannion.com/main.htm) and

The Twilight Brigade (http://www.thetwilightbrigade.com/) on how to deal with your own death and the death of loved ones.

I firmly believe that death is not an end but a beginning. If I am wrong, well, hell I won't know the diffrerence anyway right? It'll be just like going to sleep and never waking up. However, I have the funny feeling that this is not the case.

"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You," or you may wind up in their shoes in the next life. Kind of true and scary if you think about it.

Pararousia
30-04-05, 01:42
To believe that this is the only life we will ever have and if we do not accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are condemned to hell is beyond me as that is NOT what Jesus taught!

Pachipo, back up this statement please. If you read the Bible, you'll find that it is what Jesus taught. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

Peace.

Doc
30-04-05, 10:02
I may be ridiculed or flamed for this, but it is backed up by my own research these past 30 years. It is why I do not fear death. This is quite long. So grab a drink, relax, and enjoy. You can discount it if you want, but it is a true story.

I have read all the posts here and there is just too much for me to quote and comment on, but let me give you my opinion based on my research as this is a subject that has interested me ever since I had what is called an "SOBE" (Spontanious Out of Body Experience) some 30 years ago.

Background: I was visiting my sister in New York back in the 70's on vacation from university in Japan. We had stayed up for the better part of the night talking and imbibing in some alcohol. Around dawn we all went to bed. I was feeling good, but I was not stoned drunk.

I remember laying in bed on my left side in the fetal position. Suddenly I had distinct visions, like movie clips, of my life up till then. Very clear and very precise. Without warning I was suddenly above the bed looking down on my body! My first thought was that I had died. I thought the feeling was pretty cool. I was not afraid, or angry, or anything. I just thought, "Wow, I'm dead. Cool." I made the motions of putting my palms up to my face to look at my hands and said to myself, "I have no hands!" I then "looked" down like I was trying to look at my legs or lower body and said to myself, "I have no body!"

I thought this was really cool and started floating around the room. I said to myself that I wanted to pass through the walls into my sisters bedroom to see if they were there. Without any effort I was suddenly there looking down on my sister and her husband in bed. I then thought that I was really dead. But the feeling I had was the best I had ever felt in my life. I cannot explain it in words.

I then thought about my own body in the other room and suddenly I was there looking at myself on the bed. I then floated near the window and said to myself, "If I am dead I guess I'll try and visit my friends in Japan and see what they are doing." At this point I felt a strong tug and was "pulled" back to my body. "No! I don't want to go back! This feels too good!"

As much as I tried to resist I couldn't. I watched my body get closer and closer and without warning I opened my eyes, sat up in bed and said, "What the hell was that? That was no damn dream!"

Now, some may say that was just a dream or my imagination. But to them I say, do your research first on OBE's and NDE's (Near Death Experiences) before you make a statement like that. Through my research I have come to discover that I had what is coinsidered a very normal thing and was not a dream.

Since that experience I also started doing research into death and reincarnation. So what does happen to you at the moment of death?

Death: You are suddenly above your body looking down on the accident, or hospital bed, or wherever it was that you died. If you drowned, it was probably a rewarding experience as those that have nearly drowned say that the experience is phenominal. You are concious much as you would be in the physical body. If you selected to feel pain at the time of your death it will be quickly passed and forgotten about.

Remember, you have selected your time period, your parents, your gender, your country, your race, and your death based on what you need to learn in this existance.

You look around and see a light or tunnel and you gravitate towards it. (Anyone see the movie "Ghost" or "What Dreams May Come"?) The colors are indescribable. The feeling is one that you have never experienced before. It is "true love." As you travel down the tunnel of light you see loved ones and pets waiting for you on the other side welcoming you warmly. If it is not your time and you are only severly injured, say, you are told that it is not your time yet and you must go back to "complete your mission" whatever that may be.

If it is indeed your time you "cross over" to the afterlife. You meet with your loved ones and pets and are then given a life review of your most previous reincarnation. Every single microsecond of your life is reviewed and relived. However, it is not relived from your perspective, it is relived from the perspective and feelings of everyone you ever came in contact with in this existance.

If you caused pain and/or suffering to someone you will feel that pain and suffering from their perspective and feelings. In other words you will feel what they felt as you did it to them. If you caused good to someone you will also feel that good you did from their perspective and feelings.

There is no "time" as we know it on the physical plane, there is no heaven or hell and one is not punished for the bad deeds they comitted in the physical life as life is a learning experience. Here you learn from your mistakes. You are then allowed to view your "akashic records" which is a permanent record of every life you have ever lived.

You can then choose to be reborn or remain on the "other side." The choice is up to you. However, in order for the soul to advance more quickly, life on the physical plane is the fastest way. No one enters the physical world if one doesn't want to.

Therefore, the life you are living is the one you selected. (Are you listening isayhello?) Your parents are the ones you selected and you also selected your death. You have selected every experience, whether good or bad, that you will experience. It is up to you decide what decision to make when the time comes.

In previous lives you may have been your mothers brother or your fathers sister. Everyone changes roles throughout their lives on this plane. For one to believe that they have no soul or that life just ends and it is "lights out" they, based on my research, are just young souls who have not gone through enough lives to know the truth inside themselves. It is said that the "old souls know" the truth inside themselves.

This is why I do not adhere to any particular religion because they are holding back the truth in order to control the populace. To believe that this is the only life we will ever have and if we do not accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are condemned to hell is beyond me as that is NOT what Jesus taught! Based on this I guess my wife and I are going to hell because she is Japanese and believes otherwise and so do I.

If I were to follow any religion or teaching it would probably be the Buddhist teachings as theirs is the closest to what I have researched so far.

For more info on my research and life after death please check out these sites and click around. I think it will be an eye opening experience:

Dr. Raymond Moody, Phd (http://www.lifeafterlife.com/), Life After Life

Death is not the Final Chapter by Dannion Brinkley (http://www.dannion.com/main.htm) and

The Twilight Brigade (http://www.thetwilightbrigade.com/) on how to deal with your own death and the death of loved ones.

I firmly believe that death is not an end but a beginning. If I am wrong, well, hell I won't know the diffrerence anyway right? It'll be just like going to sleep and never waking up. However, I have the funny feeling that this is not the case.

"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You," or you may wind up in their shoes in the next life. Kind of true and scary if you think about it.

Here's a question: what if the life you live now is cut short? What I mean is, if we're all here for a particular mission, what happens if we don't fulfill that mission?

Doc:ramen::happy:

Pachipro
01-05-05, 21:13
Quote:
To believe that this is the only life we will ever have and if we do not accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are condemned to hell is beyond me as that is NOT what Jesus taught!


Pachipo, back up this statement please. If you read the Bible, you'll find that it is what Jesus taught. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

Peace.
Let me preface this here by saying that I do not, nor will I ever put down, anothers faith and religion and what they believe in. We are all free to believe what we feel is best. I am only looking for honest, intellectual debate, not another war over religion.

The Bible was written by humans. These humans said they were quoting Jesus. We do not know for sure that is exactly what Jesus said. Now, in my point of view, I believe there was indeed a man named Jesus who lived back then and he was a very spiritual person. He taught us the golden rule to love others and to do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

Now, am I to believe that if I do not accept him I am condemned for all eternity? Or to be forbidden entry into the kingdom of heaven if there is one? Is my wife, who is not a christian condemned because she believes in another faith? My children (if I had any) too? Why? Because of that one statement in a book written by humans? To me that is not the love that Jesus taught. Jesus taught uncoditional love. To love regardless of whether he was accepted or not. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

"I am the Way, the Truth, the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."
If this quote is the love and teachings of him and his father than that is not love to me. That seems to be hate and spite and Jesus did not teach to hate and spite. But if I am to believe this quote, that is exactly what he is teaching. It seems like he is saying, "Accept me or I will spite you for all eternity by forbidding you entry into the kingdom of the father." I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that.

It seems to be much like the hate and spite of the God of the old testament. Wasn't it God who supposidly gave us the ten commandments? Wasn't one his commandments "Thou shalt not kill"? Wasn't it God, in the old testament, who destroyed all of mankind with the great flood? He broke his own commandment and does not have unconditional love in my thinking. In fact it is stated that he even made a mistake by creating humans. I thought God was perfect and didn't make any mistakes! A true, loving God would not destroy his own creations.

It's contradictory things like these that forced me to look elsewhere and within myself for the answers and to question the teachings of the church. I believe that regardless of what is written in the bible, that Jesus and his father would accept any and all persons, regardless of their beliefs, into the kingdom of God, if there is one.

Pachipro
01-05-05, 22:22
Here's a question: what if the life you live now is cut short? What I mean is, if we're all here for a particular mission, what happens if we don't fulfill that mission?
From what I've researched no one dies before his/her mission is completed. What that mission is no one knows until after death.

Doc
01-05-05, 23:04
I have another question for you Pachipro. If we are nothing more than entities that go through life to life learning, does that mean that there is still a concept of a deity (God) due to the fact that we as humans had to still be brought into existence? Furthermore, could it be possible that the angels that we as humans believe to exist to help us are really souls who have stayed on the other side, but have intervened when deemed necessary?

Doc:ramen::happy:

Pachipro
02-05-05, 07:14
If we are nothing more than entities that go through life to life learning, does that mean that there is still a concept of a deity (God) due to the fact that we as humans had to still be brought into existence?
From what I've read (and I have read alot on the subject) their is a concept of a diety, if you want to call "him" that, but not in the sense we are led to believe. He is an all omnipotent being that is pure light and pure love. We are supposed to be here, going through these various lives, with their various trials and tribulations, to learn unconditional love. It is said that God, for lack of a better word, is within us all as we were created from Him. Not our physical form, but our essence, our soul, was created from Him.


Furthermore, could it be possible that the angels that we as humans believe to exist to help us are really souls who have stayed on the other side, but have intervened when deemed necessary?
Again, from what I have read, the answer is yes. They are higher souls who supposidly intervene when necessary in order that we may complete our mission. Whatever that may be.

Some may ask then why do babies and young children die? Well, they also had a mission and it was completed. It has been said that maybe a baby dies because the mother or father, or both had to learn something from it. It could be handling a crisis, controlling ones emotion and not comitting suicide again, accepting it instead of blaming themselves or someone else. It could be any countless number of things that one has to learn from the death of a child.

However, this is all theory and no one knows for sure save for those who claim to have died and come back and those that claim to be in touch with the spirit world. It is interesting though to read about it.

Pararousia
02-05-05, 17:41
Pachipro:

I am only looking for honest, intellectual debate, not another war over religion.

I'm cool with this too.

You said: " To believe that this is the only life we will ever have and if we do not accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are condemned to hell is beyond me as that is NOT what Jesus taught!" And then you said, "
The Bible was written by humans. These humans said they were quoting Jesus. We do not know for sure that is exactly what Jesus said. " How is it you can claim Jesus says something but then dismiss it as being written by humans when it doesn't jive with how you want it?


It's contradictory things like these that forced me to look elsewhere and within myself for the answers and to question the teachings of the church. I believe that regardless of what is written in the bible, that Jesus and his father would accept any and all persons, regardless of their beliefs, into the kingdom of God, if there is one. In all kindness, let me say that the only contradictions are those you have created. You have to read any book within it's context. Let me explain more fully now some of the questions you raised:

I. The Economy of the Day was Different
A. Godfs standard for remission of sin was clearly declared—the Hebrew sacrificial system under the Law of Moses. gWithout the shedding of blood (blood of sacrificial animals), there is no remission of sin.h
B. The Kingdom of God (in Old Testament times) broke into the world of nations at a time when national and political entities were viewed as the creation of the gods (little g) and living proof of their power. Thus the Lordfs triumph over the Canaanites testified to the world that the God (singular, big G) of Israel is the one true and living God, Whose claim on the world is absolute.
II At just the right time, Jesus came and shed His blood for the permanent remission of sins for those who believe on Him.
A. He (Jesus/God) declared at that time that gFor God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already.h
B. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
III Reading the Bible in CONTEXT.
A. Pulling one or 2 verses out of a book of over a 1000 pages is dishonest to truthful interpretation.
B. God has blinded the eyes of those who will not believe. God knows who will and who wonft, so it is impossible for some to understand. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
IV. God is the Sovereign Creator and chooses whom He will:
A. God made a covenant with certain ones in the Old Testament to protect and multiply them, for example, Abraham and David, and make His glory manifest through them.
B. He declared His intentions plainly regarding those He would bless and those He would curse. gJacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.h He is the Sovereign Creator and therefore has the RIGHT to gmake the rulesh.
C. As Sovereign God, nothing in all creation is hidden from Godfs sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to Whom we must give account.
V. We have the right to choose.
A. Surrounding nations in Old Testament times were witness to the might and glory of God and many individuals became members of the Israelite community. gYour people will be my people and your God my God.h
B. In todays time, it is your option to believe or turn away. If you believe, God extends eternal salvation to you. gFor the wages of sin is death, but the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.h This Gift you can accept or reject, as you can any gift. God forces no one to believe in Him.
C. The consequences of disbelief is spiritual death or separation from God eternally. Today is the day of salvation, harden not your hearts.

***
Ifve only briefly made statements here without a great deal of elaboration or explanation. If you sincerely want an honest discussion about these things, I am willing to explain further these things, but I will not have ganother war over religionh as you said either.

Peace.

Pachipro
02-05-05, 23:14
Pararousia, you make some valid points based on your beliefs and I cannot, and will not, argue with you over them. Being raised a Roman Catholic I also was taught and had believed what you have mentioned above until I started exploring "outside the box" so to speak and contradictions arose. Each is entitled to believe what he/she truely believes in his/her heart.

You have expressed your opinion and I have expressed mine and, like the debate over abortion, there is no middle ground. I guess I am cursed in that I can usually see the validity of both sides in any debate.

Thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading them from someone so passionate. :wave: