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View Full Version : Should Scandinavia leave the EU and form a separate union ?



sgt. Pepper
29-07-04, 16:48
I think that Sween and all nordic countrires should leave EU and NATO and form the Nordic union. Total co-operation between the nordic countries and maybe even a united military! That would be so...great. :-)

Duo
31-07-04, 17:27
I think that Sween and all nordic countrires should leave EU and NATO and form the Nordic union. Total co-operation between the nordic countries and maybe even a united military! That would be so...great. :-)

Wha'ts the point in that ?
If there is already such a union, why form smaller ones that won't have much influence.

sgt. Pepper
01-08-04, 01:05
WEll you know...ehm...because? :?

cross-platform
03-08-04, 00:22
I think that Sween and all nordic countrires should leave EU and NATO and form the Nordic union. Total co-operation between the nordic countries and maybe even a united military! That would be so...great. :-)

I think I heard that there were talks about that. Not necessarily the breaking off from the EU part, but at least forming a union between the Nordic countries. I may be just talking out my behind though, I will see if I can find it.

If the EU becomes a military superpower, it is just going to attract some power hungry people, just like it has in the U.S. I doubt the U.S will collapse at that point, but I think there would be some tension between the two. Really, any type of military superpower is going attract some shady characters.

sgt. Pepper
29-04-05, 22:28
I think I heard that there were talks about that. Not necessarily the breaking off from the EU part, but at least forming a union between the Nordic countries. I may be just talking out my behind though, I will see if I can find it.

If the EU becomes a military superpower, it is just going to attract some power hungry people, just like it has in the U.S. I doubt the U.S will collapse at that point, but I think there would be some tension between the two. Really, any type of military superpower is going attract some shady characters.

Yep, there was talk about that after WW2 (if i remember correctly). But 'certain' countries *coughDenmarkNorwaycough* complicated things and broke the whole plan. And it doesnt' seem like such a union will happen anytime soon, with those coutries joining NATO and all. :(

joel.lindgren
30-04-05, 15:18
Sgt. Pepper, Don't we already have some sort of union here in Scandinavia? It feel like we're sort of buddy nations atleast. I think the semi-lack of language barriers (Norway-Denmark-Sweden) creates a natural union for us. The problem is we're already in EU now. We should have taken the way of Norway and stayed out, then we could have formed a real union. I think the nordic countries are the last ones to go to war or pick up arms against anyone and that would lead to us focusing and spending money on other stuff.

Duo
30-04-05, 16:12
Why would u want to do that ? Being in the EU you have easy access to the rest of Europe; same money, similar economy, maybe even property rights in other more exotic countries such as spain and italy where you could own a little beach house to get away from the barren nordic weather. The benefits of being in the EU totally outweigh the drawbacks. I mean wat can you nordic countries do alone really? You lack the population to get your way alone in the world, by being in the EU europe united can actually start to make a difference and better itself and actually strive for greater things.

joel.lindgren
30-04-05, 16:52
Why would u want to do that ? Being in the EU you have easy access to the rest of Europe;

The EU are trying to close off the borders to the outside, the want us to have fingerprints and data chips in our passports and everything, I don't want a big brother style easy access-for some (Good luck if you're middle-eastern). Like some people have written in the thread, countries look out for themselves. I don't like this development.



same money, similar economy,
Which sucks monkey balls because it hollows out democracy, the capitalist oligarcy is "one dollar one vote", and with the neoliberal border-crossing power in the end the big masses will loose every right to question the conglomorates. I mostly just know how the EU works in Sweden and when it comes to democracy the EU is stripping us of rights more and more. Similiar economy just means more power for fewer people, I strongly oppose the centralism which the EU proposes.


maybe even property rights in other more exotic countries such as spain and italy where you could own a little beach house to get away from the barren nordic weather.

If you have to money yeah, so? I don't base my politics on fundamental egoistical reasons. (well, in a way we all do)


The benefits of being in the EU totally outweigh the drawbacks.

No it doesn't. The prices in most countries are up, because the EU that are supposed to support a free market are closing of for all imports and burning up food supplies, the EU are pushing for an isolationistic policy just like the US has had since the Monroe doctrine days. I believe in internationalism and equal and fair trade. The EU believes in protectionism, racism and money (and fighting inflation).



I mean wat can you nordic countries do alone really? You lack the population to get your way alone in the world, by being in the EU europe united can actually start to make a difference and better itself and actually strive for greater things.

What do you mean what we can do? It's not like Sweden has gained more power in the world since we joined the EU. We only pay the EU alot of money and our politicians do what the EU Parliament tells them to do. I don't see what we can get out of it. It's not like I oppose countries working together but I don't think these kinds of capitalist monetary unions are there for the people. What are these "greater things"? I don't want a new superpower (EU), I think superpowers are only harmful, they are collectivistic by nature and the more land and people they must rule (which is the problem right there) the less insight they can have. And most of all as an internationalist I strongly oppose the way EU treats immigrants. For instance Sweden is after Germany the country in Europe who lets in most non-europeans, and then we are 9 million and they are like 80 million. But the EU are forcing us to change our laws to protect THEM from immigrants, I don't believe in the old one country one people and I want people to be able to move freely around the world (which is something the EU makes HARDER not EASIER if you look at it in a non-racist way), these days we are sending sick, dying and life-threatened children back to poverty and certain death, something we didn't do much of back before the EU. And another thing is that if a person comes to the EU and lands in one country where he is rejected to get residence permit he can't move to the next country and apply, he is sent back to the first country and if rejected he is sent back to his homeland (or put in a cage in some refugee camp far from our comfortable selves).

What can the scandinavian countries do outside the EU, I don't know, but I don't think we can do any more inside the EU, and to be forced into a racist policy and lose our democratic rights i don't feel it's worth it. And the "move freely inside the EU" is just bs. Our scandinavian borders are almost non-existent and have been long before the EU came along. Ofcourse they are more protected nowadays because of bs EU policies.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Skandinavism.jpg
Scandinavianism ^_^

Duo
30-04-05, 19:53
Hmmmm, I guess you do have some valid points, however no matter what there will always be great powers in the world as long as we are divided in factions. Now, you have a choice, take destiny in your own hand or suffer at the hand of someone else. If europe doesn't stand up for itself, then we will be trailing under the current of US or China, or India. If you dont want to be a superpower that's fine, but just realize that someone else will no matter. Furthermore about the immigrants, why should the EU have tolerant policies towards this? There should be qoutas and rules and regulations in emmigrating and actually I feel a lot of Western European countries have done a poor job in choosing their immigrants, they feared eastern europeans, who unlike no other were most similar to most europeans, and have allowed different groups to immigrate who can't assimilate well into the local society. Don't ell me that you dont have such problems in Sweden ? I have had many Swedes complain about how a lot of non-european immigrants are failing to integrate into swedish society. Furthermore, you beleive into free trade but then you're complaining about bad economic conditions, well the EU is seeking policies to give advantage to its economy so that Europe can grow as sycronized economy to promote progress and growth, which is much needed in eastern europe, where ecomical development could really improve many things. Would you rather have your money go to some asian country or whatever or to a fellow European country ? I'm sorry but i would choose the latter; whether people like it or not European countries are related to each other through history and blood. So for me it just makes simple sense that europe be a united continent. Other countries are always looking out for their benefits, so what's wrong with Europe doing the same. Besides if the EU is to be a superpower, it would be totally different, it would lead by the example of a liberal democracy and social ideals and would be a concrete and positive example in the world to inspire further such progress. The EU would be a political and economic power, just necessary enough to stand its ground and influence other gravitating countries into its sphere of influence. The ideals that the EU promotes are extremely positive and we can see the good influence that EU is having in some eastern european countries where the standards of living are increase. Despite that I agree that the EU still faces many problems, however i dont really see the racist thing as an issue, where do you get that from ? Most western european counries have very mixed multicultural urban societies. Turks and Kosovars in Germany, Marrocans and North Africans in France and Belgium and Spain, and many many more..... and all allowed to mantain their cultural traits, not hindered in any way, evening opening mosques and other things........ when was the last time you saw a church in Saudi Arabia? Well there are many mosques in Rome, so I don't see it as you that the EU is a racist union.

sgt. Pepper
01-05-05, 02:49
I agree, the scandinavian countries should leave all unions and organisations and form one of their own. It could be called the Scandinavian Union or something. And why care about not being able to change the world? The Scandinavian Union could look after us Scandinavians, and we would be better off than we are today.

Btw, Joel Lindgren, that Swedish/Norwegian flag sure was sexy. We should take Norway back someday soon...or atleast "persuade" them to join in another union. ^^

Maciamo
01-05-05, 03:09
I agree, the scandinavian countries should leave all unions and organisations and form one of their own. It could be called the Scandinavian Union or something. And why care about not being able to change the world? The Scandinavian Union could look after us Scandinavians, and we would be better off than we are today.

That would only increase the prices of imported products from other EU countries (quite a lot of things), diminish the competitivity of Scandinavian products in Europe (=drops in sales for Ericsson, etc.)...

However we could see Scandinavia as the Canada of Europe. Low population density, colder weather, etc. It's just that the rest of the EU is not at all like the US.

Look at Benelux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelux) countries. They have officially been part of an economic union since 1944, Luxembourg and Belgium shared the same currency (except in name), well before the Euro, and the 3 countries are associated together in the same way as Norway, Sweden and Denmark are (they also share a common history and geographical region). But, although Dutch is the closest language to Scandinavian languages, the Benelux countries were founding members of the EU. Why would Scandinavian be out of the EU ? There could be a Scandinavian Union similar to the Benelux, within the EU. The Benelux still exists.

Miss_apollo7
01-05-05, 16:34
Yep, there was talk about that after WW2 (if i remember correctly). But 'certain' countries *coughDenmarkNorwaycough* complicated things and broke the whole plan. And it doesnt' seem like such a union will happen anytime soon, with those coutries joining NATO and all. :(

Your postulation that Denmark and Norway complicated matters cannot be explained so simply. In fact, the Cold War had a big say, especially the Marshall Plan.

Denmark was one of the least devastated countries in Europe after the collapse of the Nazi regime, thus it can be discussed why the Marshall Plan also included Denmark (and Norway and Sweden). Denmark was already recovering slowly when the Marshall Aid came about, and was not very anxious to becoming a recipient of Aid due to fear of the Russians.
Certainly, Denmark was not interested in participating in anything which could lead to a division of Europe, which was why Denmark had taken a neutral stance after WW2. Like her neighbours, Norway and Sweden, Denmark was very frightened about the Russians, especially because of their close geographical position, and for Sweden, Finnish sympathies created by the Finnish defeat in the war against the Russians in 1939-40.

The Danes were in a dilemma at this stage about recieving Marshall Aid (i.e., becoming an official American ally by becoming a recipient), as the Danish government was considering a Nordic defence alliance as an alternative to NATO. It is likely that this idea of a Nordic defence alliance was a sign of lack of total reliance on the US. The Danes even considered an economic union among the other Scandinavian countries as an alternative to the Western European cooperation.
The US, Britain, and the French governments were very eager to include the Scandinavian countries in the Marshall Plan = European Reconstruction Programme, especially George Bidault, the French Foreign Minister was very concerned that the Scandinavian countries were reluctant and wanted to form their own cooperation.
Hence, after a period of reluctance, Denmark and Norway were convinced by the US government and joined the plan, and Sweden followed as well.

Duo
01-05-05, 16:45
I think that Scandinavian countries shouldn't view the EU as a threat to their independence or what not; I understand that being far up north can make one feel as distant from the rest of Europe, but nonetheless Scandinavia is an integral and important part of Europe, just like on the other end we have the mediterranean countries. We need all the distinct flavors in the EU to fully have a true European spirit blended together.

Miss_apollo7
01-05-05, 16:59
I think that Scandinavian countries shouldn't view the EU as a threat to their independence or what not; I understand that being far up north can make one feel as distant from the rest of Europe, but nonetheless Scandinavia is an integral and important part of Europe, just like on the other end we have the mediterranean countries. We need all the distinct flavors in the EU to fully have a true European spirit blended together.

HEAR, HEAR!!! (yes, I am a pro-EU person!) :blush:

Duo
01-05-05, 17:06
Yeah I that that's just so great, I really get hyped easily about such things, just thinking of how great Europe could be if we just let go of certain stupid things that have hindered us in the past, especially in the Balkan region. I totally get overwhelmed so sorry if I may seem a bit rude to you Euro-skeptics but a united europe would be a great place to be, for me i feel we are living in the best continent :p

MasterGeek
01-05-05, 17:37
sweden defo rulezzz! but nah...terrible idea...european countries should stand united as one...although the EU is doing some pretty weird things at the moment...

sgt. Pepper
01-05-05, 20:42
Naaah...i still like the sound of "Nordic defence alliance". But it seems like we are pumping so much money in to EU, and i don't even get what we are getting in return. Easier trade? Is that all?

lolife
02-05-05, 03:57
I agree with Maciamo, in that we already exist as a natural union inside the EU (well, except Norway, as they're not part of the EU...yet). Even so, I don't think anyone in the EU would stop us from forming any sort of official 'union' inside the EU frame, that would harmonise the societies up here even more. But I kind of enjoy the sort of love-hate relationship we have up here. And in the case that EU becomes very corrupt in some way, or very unkind to our societies, we always have that option then. But for now, I think pretty well of the EU. It's better to be in there and try to affect it's future, then just stand beside and watch. Together in there, we have a strong voice.

:-)

Maciamo
02-05-05, 04:11
Even so, I don't think anyone in the EU would stop us from forming any sort of official 'union' inside the EU frame, that would harmonise the societies up here even more.

That's fine. I don't see any problem with that. In fact, Scandinavia is already seen as a Union of those 3 countries. Same 'name' for the currency (although different currency itself), same airline (SAS), similar flag, similar language, same ethnic group, joint history/roots, etc. Why do you think there is such a word as "Scandinavia" (we could add Iceland too) if it wasn't because of the shared culture and Norse roots of these countries ? In fact, we could almost argue that Scandinavia could be just one country, as the difference between the three language are not more pronounced than the differences between German or Italian dialects, Spain's languages (Catalan, Castillan, Galician...) or especially France's languages (Corsican, Occitan, Catalan, Provencal, Sayoyard, Breton, Alsacian...). If we were to redesign the border of European countries to form EU states, I would divide Spain and France by language area, but would consider unify Scandinavia as one state (probably not, but just to explain that I see it as more homogenous than Spain or France).

lolife
02-05-05, 04:45
Indeed.

Scandinavia was from the beginning only Denmark, Norway and Sweden, because of the tightly shared history beween us, while nordic also included Iceland and Finland. But I guess nowadays it's common to count scandinavia and nordic as the same.

edit: Wikipedia about Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia)

Anyway, Finland and Iceland is definitely part of that brotherhood. All five countries are very similar, society wise. And while Finnish is very unsimilar to any of the other nordic languages, I believe many of them speaks or at least understands swedish aswell (that's three languages, phew).

:-)

And something to think about - why is it that norwegians and danes have no problem understanding swedish, but swedes can have serious problems understanding them?! Huh? Or, this is how I percieve it anyway.

:okashii: :D

joel.lindgren
02-05-05, 11:46
It IS the weirdest thing. Walk up to any norwegian and he's gonna understand 99,9% of what you say, and we understand like 20% (It's much easier in written form).
And the danish is even more harder. ( I like to see it like this. We speak english and the danish are Brad Pitt in Snatch :-) )

Mycernius
02-05-05, 12:26
There was a union between the Scandinavian countries. It was called the European Free Trade Agreement. The UK was part of it until we joined the EU. I am not sure if it is still in existance since Sweden and Finland have also joined the EU. There have been calls in Britain to leave the EU and have closer ties to the US. The country is stiil skeptcal about the EU. In some ways it is good for Europe, in other ways Brussels are a bunch of idiots with stupid rules.

lolife
05-05-05, 08:13
In some ways it is good for Europe, in other ways Brussels are a bunch of idiots with stupid rules.

:okashii:

And so you wanna have closer ties with the US?

:D

I'm just kidding. But it's a little funny though.

sgt. Pepper
06-05-05, 00:12
I agree Lolife.

And that thing about understanding sure is weird, i think that Swedish is a much more comprehensible language than Norwegian and Danish. So if there shall be a Scandinavian country, the danes and norwegians will have to give up their languages and start learning Swedish. :)

Ok, that last part wasn't serious.

Mycernius
06-05-05, 17:07
I agree Lolife.

And that thing about understanding sure is weird, i think that Swedish is a much more comprehensible language than Norwegian and Danish. So if there shall be a Scandinavian country, the danes and norwegians will have to give up their languages and start learning Swedish. :)

Ok, that last part wasn't serious.
I thought you had all given up your own languages and were learning English? :D

RockLee
06-05-05, 19:50
There was a union between the Scandinavian countries. It was called the European Free Trade Agreement. The UK was part of it until we joined the EU. I am not sure if it is still in existance since Sweden and Finland have also joined the EU. There have been calls in Britain to leave the EU and have closer ties to the US. The country is stiil skeptcal about the EU. In some ways it is good for Europe, in other ways Brussels are a bunch of idiots with stupid rules.

You rather would like to join Retard n1 in the world Bush than stay in the EU?

Hey yeah, let's all leave the EU !! That would be so smart !! *note sarcasm*

Mycernius
06-05-05, 22:39
I did say some people. (sarcasm noted) It is pretty sad really to see that there are some people who would willing do this. We have closer links to Europe than the US despite what our re-elected pratt of a PM thinks (I didn't vote for his party). I can remember reading something a long time ago about England and Wales being the 51st state. Some Sci-fi novel written in the mid 80s when the UK really disliked the EU.

Cyprusm
07-05-05, 15:09
Naaah...i still like the sound of "Nordic defence alliance". But it seems like we are pumping so much money in to EU, and i don't even get what we are getting in return. Easier trade? Is that all?


I think you have a good point there in saying that.

My country has just joined the EU in 2004 and alot of us feel like that.

BUt that is how EU works. Richer countries must help the poorer countries.

Mind you, EU has alot of problems nowadays, and most come from the free trade with China.

Cyprusm
07-05-05, 15:11
I did say some people. (sarcasm noted) It is pretty sad really to see that there are some people who would willing do this. We have closer links to Europe than the US despite what our re-elected pratt of a PM thinks (I didn't vote for his party). I can remember reading something a long time ago about England and Wales being the 51st state. Some Sci-fi novel written in the mid 80s when the UK really disliked the EU.

Actually isnt that true? UK is the 51st state of the US. Politically wise, UK has been supporting the US interests for ages, not the EUs.

Sensuikan San
11-05-05, 05:52
There was a union between the Scandinavian countries. It was called the European Free Trade Agreement. The UK was part of it until we joined the EU. I am not sure if it is still in existance since Sweden and Finland have also joined the EU. There have been calls in Britain to leave the EU and have closer ties to the US. The country is stiil skeptcal about the EU. In some ways it is good for Europe, in other ways Brussels are a bunch of idiots with stupid rules.

Yes ... the UK could, I suppose, quit Europe and tie with the US ....

... then you could become, perhaps a member of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement).

...I think you'd experience a sense of "dėja vue" !

.... Guess who seems to 'call all the shots' between the US, Canada and Mexico ...... ?

Just a thought ...

sgt. Pepper
12-05-05, 22:29
I thought you had all given up your own languages and were learning English? :D

Pffft, never! But we all speak english more or less fluently. :)

ichigo daifuku
18-05-05, 00:50
I think it would be an error. Also if now it doesn't look like, EU is a great opportunity for all european countries. I hate the actual government of my country also because of its frequent opposition to EU in favor of US.

Duo
18-05-05, 10:10
I think it would be an error. Also if now it doesn't look like, EU is a great opportunity for all european countries. I hate the actual government of my country also because of its frequent opposition to EU in favor of US.


You have a point there, but is not like the opposition or should I say oppositions there are that much better, bunch of average socialist politicians together with old era communists who if had their way would have turned Italy back into the stone age.

ichigo daifuku
18-05-05, 13:21
You have a point there, but is not like the opposition or should I say oppositions there are that much better, bunch of average socialist politicians together with old era communists who if had their way would have turned Italy back into the stone age.

The real problem in my opinion are the communist (rifondazione comunista and comunisti italiani) because their ideas are out of the time but they have a 10/15 % of electors and they always have too much power inside a left wing government. Anyway, it's impossible to have a government worse than the actual.

Duo
19-05-05, 00:43
The real problem in my opinion are the communist (rifondazione comunista and comunisti italiani) because their ideas are out of the time but they have a 10/15 % of electors and they always have too much power inside a left wing government. Anyway, it's impossible to have a government worse than the actual.

Yep they are always over represented, but talkin about the current government there are some fairly good people there, Fini seems pretty moderate and clever on most things.

Miss_apollo7
21-05-05, 01:15
The Nordic Council was formed in 1952, and it strengthened the cooperation between the Nordic countries, and made free movement among Nordic nationals in Nordic countries and travel without passport.

There were in fact talks of widening the cooperation to something which can be seen today with the European Union in 1970 with NORDEK, however, Denmark chose to become a member of the European cooperation instead in 1972, along with Britain.

Finland chose not to sign the Nordic treaty due to the Soviet threat.

Personally, I am in favour of the EU instead of the Nordic cooperation, as I believe EU has a great future lying ahead.

Duo
21-05-05, 02:10
The Nordic Council was formed in 1952, and it strengthened the cooperation between the Nordic countries, and made free movement among Nordic nationals in Nordic countries and travel without passport.

There were in fact talks of widening the cooperation to something which can be seen today with the European Union in 1970 with NORDEK, however, Denmark chose to become a member of the European cooperation instead in 1972, along with Britain.

Finland chose not to sign the Nordic treaty due to the Soviet threat.

Personally, I am in favour of the EU instead of the Nordic cooperation, as I believe EU has a great future lying ahead.

Miss Apollo, you always have the right thing to say :wave: