Enjo Kosai (or teenage prostitution) OFFTOPIC about legalising prostitution

bossel · Apr 22, 2005

A.A. Lee said:
It's bad because for anyone, anywhere you wouldn't want your mother, sister, or daughter to do it, because people, male or female, are worth more than that.
[...]
I know I do unless that's the woman's only option.

The worth of human beings is up the themselves. If they consider it OK for them to sell sex, it's entirely their own business (unless they have a contagious disease which they deliberately spread).

Prostitution stops when a woman says she's worth more than a few hundred bucks or a LV bag, when she can't be bought.

You don't buy a prostitute. She (or he) sells a service.

If you look down upon them, maybe you should check your own attitude?

A.A. Lee said:
Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.

That depends. If a girl has sex with a guy because he is in a position of power or because he supports her financially, it's not that much different from prostitution.

A.A. Lee said:
The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West.

PaulTB has a point here. It's probably a combination of both a more lax attitude towards sex & of western materialist influences.

A.A. Lee · Apr 23, 2005

"The worth of human beings is up the themselves. If they consider it OK for them to sell sex, it's entirely their own business (unless they have a contagious disease which they deliberately spread)."

I disagree. The worth of human being to other humans is determined by society. If a white man can sell a black man or his children than the black man's worth to people at large is low. Sadly throughout much of history, the population at large were mostly peasants whose lives were worth little compared to the elite. In modern times, though, the common people have more rights and greater worth. A person can estimate his own worth, but if his fellow man can mistreat him without impunity than that degrades his position. I once heard the saying, "Some people's lives are worth more than others." I like to believe that in God's eyes this is NOT true. In society people are simply not equal, but I like to believe that we are moving towards greater equality.

In many Asian coutries, including Japan, women are denied opportunities and better jobs. This is true of the West, too, though to a lesser extent. In Japan there are no laws barring women from these chances, but they are taught to be inferior to men and to occupy a submissive role. Quite frankly a lot of Asian women are raised to have low self esteem. And not just in Japan. My Taiwanese father raised me to have low self esteem. A lot of my Asian girlfriends were raised to have low self esteem. This is sad reality that I have personally observed. If a woman chooses to sell sex it's true that that's her business and her life. I just want to explain that those many young Japanese girls who choose to sell their bodies did not just come up with this on their own and that this is a sympton of a wider problem, the low status of women in Japan.

A.A. Lee · Apr 23, 2005

You don't buy a prostitute. She (or he) sells a service.
If you look down upon them, maybe you should check your own attitude?

A woman who prostitutes herself sells her body. Selling your body is selling yourself even if for just a limited time. It's also said that someone who will do just about anything for money or material wealth can be bought and you don't get much lower than selling your body (except those who would kill for money; of course they're the worst).

I don't go around spitting on prostitutes and persecuting them. If they decide to do what they do, then they do so at their own risk. Some of the risks are pregnancy and stds, but the worse is getting beating or turning up in a river, dump, etc. And don't tell me this doesn't happen to prostitutes in Japan. It happens to women everywhere even to those who aren't prostitutes, but it is much more likey to happen to a prostitute for obvious reasons. I look down prostitutes because what they do is just crazy to me, that the money is worth more than their health and safety. If you think it's okay for a woman or girl to take these risks, then you need to check your own attitude.

A.A. Lee · Apr 23, 2005

"That depends. If a girl has sex with a guy because he is in a position of power or because he supports her financially, it's not that much different from prostitution."

If a women has sex with a guy only because he supports her than in a way he owns her. She is financially dependent on him, which gives him significant power over her. If a woman is married to the man, though, that entitles her to certain rights and privileges in my country anyway. A prostitute earns chump change, but a married woman can take her man to the cleaners. You might think of a woman who marries a man for money as a prostitute, but if she can make a killing off of him or the divorce than the man's the chump!

I wasn't referring to these women, though. I meant women who have sex freely because they want it. The puritans of my country (W's supporters) view them as sluts and whores, but they're not "selling services," so they're not whores. And yes whore is a dirty word for a dirty profession.

bossel · Apr 23, 2005

A.A. Lee said:
A woman who prostitutes herself sells her body. Selling your body is selling yourself even if for just a limited time.

If you see it this way, pretty much all people who work for others are selling their body. You work with your body, you get money for it.

It happens to women everywhere even to those who aren't prostitutes, but it is much more likey to happen to a prostitute for obvious reasons.

Any statistics? I suppose, it depends where & under which circumstances a prostitute works. I haven't heard of that many prostitutes being murdered here in Germany.

If you think it's okay for a woman or girl to take these risks, then you need to check your own attitude.

I tend to the Libertarian point of view. As long as you don't harm anyone without their consent, it's OK.
If you deny people the right to sell their services (as long as those services comply with the ZAP), you're on the wrong side, IMO.

nurizeko · Apr 24, 2005

If a women has sex with a guy only because he supports her than in a way he owns her. She is financially dependent on him, which gives him significant power over her. If a woman is married to the man, though, that entitles her to certain rights and privileges in my country anyway. A prostitute earns chump change, but a married woman can take her man to the cleaners. You might think of a woman who marries a man for money as a prostitute, but if she can make a killing off of him or the divorce than the man's the chump!

thats kinda sad, that in western countries to some women marriage is meaningless apart from lies, cheating and unfair financial gain...

it also reminds me of that japans virgin wives thread where wives aint getting any yet they arnt considoring divorce and love their husbands....i dont think its fair to live in a sexless marriage, but still, much more admirable then the population of western women who marry and steal a blokes cash and in some ways his life.

back on topic, prostitution is weak, ive felt pretty low at times but ive never felt so low that selling myself is an option, granted im a guy, but the principal remains the same, what kind of self confidence and respect stealing condition drives girls down so low that selling themselves for an expensive bag is acceptable?.

you dont need to be a miserable wreck to have no self respect, its just sad.

A.A. Lee · Apr 25, 2005

"If you see it this way, pretty much all people who work for others are selling their body. You work with your body, you get money for it."

No, because the product being sold is not one's body. When someone hires a janitor, he's paying for a clean floor or office. If someone hires a construction worker, he's paying for the finished building. But if someone hires a prostitute, he's paying for that person's body. That's a significant difference.

A very good friend of mine recently started doing nude photos much to my disappointment (but I make a lot of more money than her and I just can't blame a good friend). She said that she could never be a stripper because men touch them and it's so much more degrading. She says that a woman feels violated when someone she doesn't lust after touches her and it takes someone who's messed up in the head to put up with this. Of course, her boyfriend and I are at the shoots to make sure she doesn't get molested.

Also if someone works like 60+ hours for a company, it is said that he's sold his soul to the company and the company owns him.

"Any statistics? I suppose, it depends where & under which circumstances a prostitute works."

Most people in the US don't really care if a prostitute or stripper gets beaten or killed unless she was forced into prostitution, so these events are rarely reported on the news. People who actually do research on it say that a lot of prostitutes are beaten regularly. It's pretty hard to measure how many are killed as many of these people fall under missing persons unless a body if found. But considering how many women do get abducted and killed in the US, I can imagine that it's much worse for prostitutes. World wide women are raped and beaten regularly and it's much worse for prostitutes.

"If you deny people the right to sell their services (as long as those services comply with the ZAP), you're on the wrong side, IMO."

I don't have a problem with denying women the right to prostitute themselves in my town. Most people here don't want them in their towns either. A lot of people don't even want strippers in their precinct. The majority decides how the town is going to be for better or worse.

bossel · Apr 26, 2005

A.A. Lee said:
No, because the product being sold is not one's body.

Ah, you seem to have a complete different understanding of the concept of prostitution. Prostitutes do not sell their body. They sell a service performed with their body. & this is IMO not essentially different from what eg. masseurs, construction workers or craftsman do.

She says that a woman feels violated when someone she doesn't lust after touches her and it takes someone who's messed up in the head to put up with this.

Not really. It depends on the personality, education & social environment whether you want to do this job, or not. Being messed up in the head is not a necessary precondition. I don't know any prostitutes personally, but those I saw on TV gave me the impression that their mindsets & mental health is as varied as in the general population.

Most people in the US don't really care if a prostitute or stripper gets beaten or killed unless she was forced into prostitution, so these events are rarely reported on the news. People who actually do research on it say that a lot of prostitutes are beaten regularly.

Well, this looks to me more like a problem of society than of prostitution. Of course, the legal problems in the US probably worsen the situation regarding maltreatment of prostitutes as well. Since they are unable or unwilling (for legal reasons) to call police for help, there is a greater chance to fall victim to a sexual predator or other criminals.

Here in Germany this is mainly a problem in the illegal setting, where women from Eastern Europe or 3rd World countries are forced into prostitution. For regular prostitutes from Germany or the EU, that is much less an issue.

I don't have a problem with denying women the right to prostitute themselves in my town. Most people here don't want them in their towns either. A lot of people don't even want strippers in their precinct. The majority decides how the town is going to be for better or worse.

This is quite hypocritical, because this simply drives prostitution underground. Which in turn increases the problems you described above.

Sr Pasta · Jun 4, 2005

Bossel's way of seeing this is as repugnant to me as if he was defending slavery.

There's a good law for this in Sweden: selling sex is not criminalized, but buying it is. That way, the scumbags are the ones risking a sentence.

bossel · Jun 4, 2005

Sr Pasta said:
Bossel's way of seeing this is as repugnant to me as if he was defending slavery.

Interesting that you mention slavery in that regard. Shouldn't you have the freedom to decide what to do with your life (or your body)?

There's a good law for this in Sweden: selling sex is not criminalized, but buying it is. That way, the scumbags are the ones risking a sentence.

Well, better than in the US, but still crap. A certain Petra Östergren has quite something to say about the Swedish law.

Quote:
"Until now, the law against buying sexual services in Sweden has lead to:

* Less street prostitution.

* Instead, more prostitution in other ways and places.

* Increased sex tourism to other countries.

* Increased violence, force and compulsion against prostitutes, and more pimp dependence. A worse situation, especially for those who lack alternatives to street prostitution, like the drug addicts.

* Less possibilities to fight forced prostitution and trafficing.

* Less societal control, and less possibilities to help prostitutes and clients.

* A law that can't be implemented, and will diminish either law obedience or legal security. Without getting rid of prostitution. The law is already being ruled out by important legal instances.

* The prostitutes have been run over and humiliated by the politicians. Sex workers now, at last, seem to be on their way to create a union, but the law is already a fact and it will take time before it can be abolished.

* Sweden has made an example to rest of the world - that this is not a good road to follow. The law is a complete failure so far - whatever some politicians may claim on international conferences. "

Sr Pasta · Jun 5, 2005

Well, she's simply wrong. Prostitution is much less of a problem in Sweden than in most countries. I think the most obvious difference that this law has made is that when people mention prostitution in Sweden, they most often understand that they are talking about a form of sexual abuse. When people mention it in Japan or Germany, they don't. Since I came to Japan, I've really come to appreciate the lack of red light districts in Sweden.

bossel · Jun 6, 2005

Sr Pasta said:
Well, she's simply wrong. Prostitution is much less of a problem in Sweden than in most countries.

Well, you obviously simply didn't read the text. She also said: "Sweden has never had much prostitution, compared to most other countries. According to an investigation made by the government in the mid-nineties, Sweden had about 2500 prostitutes, 650 of whom were street prostitutes; half of the latter were on drugs."

Therefore, Sweden didn't even have much of a problem before the new law. & the new law obviously didn't do so much good.

When people mention it in Japan or Germany, they don't. Since I came to Japan, I've really come to appreciate the lack of red light districts in Sweden.

Well, speaking for Germany, I never had any problems with red light districts. I don't even know if the city I live in has one (probably there is one, I just never came across it). I only know one big brothel because it's close to the main station & you can see it from the trains passing by (big numbers on the windows, so that the passengers know which girl to ask for).

People in Germany understand that prostitution is not sexual abuse. Forced prostitution is.

Sr Pasta · Jun 6, 2005

Sure I read it. The point is not that the law changed very much, it is that it has prevented some of the commercialization of sex from reaching Sweden. And that's very important. BTW, Petra Östergren is not exactly a research institute. Her depiction of the law, it's results and it's political dynamics is simply not accurate.

Of course you never had any problems with the red light districts. If you'd been a roman 2000 years ago, you wouldn't have had any problem with the slave markets either.

PopCulturePooka · Jun 6, 2005

bossel said:
People in Germany understand that prostitution is not sexual abuse. Forced prostitution is.

That reminds me. Been meaning to ask you.

What are your thoughts on this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jan/05013106.html

To me this is forced prostitution.

bossel · Jun 7, 2005

FirstHousePooka said:
What are your thoughts on this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml

Exaggerated. The job centre didn't know that it was a brothel that offered the job. They operated under the name of a massage parlour.

German job centres generally do not place people in brothels. They are surely not allowed to force anybody to work there, since there is a German law against that.

The German news story:
http://www.welt.de/data/2003/07/11/132368.html (quite reliable source)

& a German article on the general implications of that law:
http://www.taz.de/pt/2004/12/18/a0077.nf/text (leftist newspaper with a feminist touch)

Sr Pasta said:
Sure I read it. The point is not that the law changed very much, it is that it has prevented some of the commercialization of sex from reaching Sweden.

That sounds quite naive. Prostitution still exists, it's only better hidden now.

BTW, Petra Östergren is not exactly a research institute. Her depiction of the law, it's results and it's political dynamics is simply not accurate.

OK, then provide me with some better sources. Or better yet, tell me what exactly is wrong with her analysis.

Of course you never had any problems with the red light districts. If you'd been a roman 2000 years ago, you wouldn't have had any problem with the slave markets either.

How would you know?
& what is your point?

PopCulturePooka · Jun 7, 2005

bossel said:
Exaggerated. The job centre didn't know that it was a brothel that offered the job. They operated under the name of a massage parlour.

German job centres generally do not place people in brothels. They are surely not allowed to force anybody to work there, since there is a German law against that.

The German news story:
http://www.welt.de/data/2003/07/11/132368.html (quite reliable source)

& a German article on the general implications of that law:
http://www.taz.de/pt/2004/12/18/a0077.nf/text (leftist newspaper with a feminist touch)

:?
I can't read german (very well at all).
But I'll take your word for it, and its the whole reason I asked (considering you're like the only german I currently know online).

So... basically those stories were BS?

bossel · Jun 7, 2005

FirstHousePooka said:
So... basically those stories were BS?

Sorry, but I didn't find an English article that relates to this particular incident.

The story was not completely BS, since the girl actually got that offer. But she wouldn't have been forced into prostitution, neither was she threatened with losing her unemployment benefit.

Sr Pasta · Jun 7, 2005

bossel said:
That sounds quite naive. Prostitution still exists, it's only better hidden now.

Of course it does - I'm simply saying that this law has prevented the problems from increasing, as they tend to do in many countries these years. This goes especially for those countries legalizing the prostitution industry.

This law is also efficient in the long run, since it targets the a******s and marginalizes them in society. Many men in Germany grow up believing that having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you is a normal thing - you can pay someone to "endure" it. Fewer men in Sweden will grow up with those beliefs. That's a good thing.

Let's try a simple rethorical question: I suppose that you agree on forbidding working with asbestos, since it's quite a health risk. I also suppose that you agree that at least some people get very bad experiences with prostiution, for example destroying their sex life. Why do you want to allow "jobs" with that kind of health risks involved? Is it because you suppose your daughter will never work there?

bossel · Jun 8, 2005

Sr Pasta said:
Of course it does - I'm simply saying that this law has prevented the problems from increasing, as they tend to do in many countries these years. This goes especially for those countries legalizing the prostitution industry.

Out of sight, out of mind! Just because you don't see the prostitutes anymore, doesn't mean they are gone.

Some points from the Norwegian report "Purchasing Sexual Services
in Sweden and the Netherlands - Legal Regulation and Experiences" (2004)

regarding Sweden:
"...The police informed us that it is more difficult to
investigate cases of pimping and Trafficking in Human beings
because prostitution does not take place so openly on the streets any
more.
[...]
An unintended effect is that the clients are less visible than previously and that they are less willing to cooperate in bringing to light coercion, Trafficking in Human beings, or underage persons involved in prostitution. Another unintended effect of the fact that women are less visible is they are more difficult to reach by the support system. An unintended effect of the police's "threatening" presence on the streets is that the prostitutes' dependence on pimps has probably increased.
[...]"

regarding the Netherlands:
"Experiences from the police suggest that prostitution has become more transparent and it is easier to impose control with the legal brothels. On the other hand a so-called "grey market" still exists where, to a lesser degree, the police have information and control. It is assumed that the victims of human trafficking are within the "grey market".
[...]
In those municipalities where there has been experience and where good relations have existed between the municipality and the brothel owners, implementation has been successful. The relationship between the prostitute and the brothel owner has varied. Some brothel owners are good employers and some are not. Our impression is that what the municipalities have offered in the way of health, safety, fire provisions etc. have worked well in relation to the prostitutes."

This law is also efficient in the long run, since it targets the a******s and marginalizes them in society.

As I said, quite naive.

Many men in Germany grow up believing that having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you is a normal thing - you can pay someone to "endure" it.

What crappy ideas you have. Any evidence for this?
If prostitutes don't want to have sex with you, they don't need to. Unlike illegal prostitutes, legal ones have rights. If a pimp wants to force them, they can easily sue him.

Let's try a simple rethorical question:

Rhetorical? Then you don't want an answer? Well, I'll respond, anyway.

I suppose that you agree on forbidding working with asbestos, since it's quite a health risk.

Nope. If you take the necessary precautions, you can work with asbestos. Else, all those asbestos-contaminated buildings couldn't be broken down.

I also suppose that you agree that at least some people get very bad experiences with prostiution, for example destroying their sex life.

Could be. But a lot of jobs with high stress levels (& smoking) could destroy your sex-life.
Bad experiences (& higher risks to personal health) can be had in a number of jobs as well. Police, jailers, fire fighters, etc.

The most dangerous jobs in the USA:
1. Truck driver 8. Taxicab driver
2. Farm worker 9. Timber cutter
3. Sales supervisor/proprietor 10. Cashier
4. Construction worker 11. Fisherman
5. Police detective 12. Metal worker
6. Airplane pilot 13. Roofer
7. Security guard 14. Firefighter

You want to forbid them all?

Why do you want to allow "jobs" with that kind of health risks involved?

Why should I prohibit any of the above jobs?

Is it because you suppose your daughter will never work there?

Which daughter? Anyway, if this imaginary daughter for some strange reason decided to become a prostitute, it would be entirely up to her. It's her life. As a father I would still support her.

Just because you don't like something, you would forbid it for everybody else?

BTW, you didn't answer my questions from the previous post:
How would you know?
& what is your point?

lolife · Jun 8, 2005

AngkorianKnight said:
I haven't read the whole thread, just some on the first page, but this clarifies a lot of things up for me. I guess they really want the cash (to buy stuff) so they can at least have what their friends have or something of that nature. I never understood why some people are very materialistic.

I agree. Me neither.

bossel said:
...

I do agree - somewhat - that someone who is absolutely bent on working as a prostitute, even though there are a lot of other options and they knows all the risks, should be free to do so. But I thinks it's pretty safe to say that probably about 99% of the worlds prostitutes do not choose this "profession" because they want to. And also remember - the hidden prostitution and trafficking have existed before aswell! So, I personally believe that especially prostitution, but perhaps also trafficking, have decreased overall since.

bossel said:
Why should I prohibit any of the above jobs?

I would never compare those professions with prostitution. I really don't think it's the physical health that is the most in danger for most prostitutes.

bossel said:
Which daughter? Anyway, if this imaginary daughter for some strange reason decided to become a prostitute, it would be entirely up to her. It's her life. As a father I would still support her.

You say that if your imaginary/future daughter gets involved with prostitution, you will just accept that? Well.. It'll probably be a couple of years before I'll even ponder about getting kids. But I can tell you right now, if any daughter of mine gets involved with prostitution and I find out, and given the circumstances, no way in hell I'll accept that and letting her keep doing that..

I admit, I have not read all posts here, so I might have read this completely out of context. But really...?

kashii:

Just because you don't like something, you would forbid it for everybody else?

The question is, do they like it?

Last.. Sorry if I have taken this out of context, and please correct me if so.

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