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View Full Version : Case Of Gao Rongrong, Tortured Falun Gong



TuskCracker
25-06-05, 02:12
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Anybody give me more on Gao Rongrong, tortured for being a Falun Gong member.


Ms. Gao was an accountant at the Luxun Fine Arts College in Shenyang City. Because she persisted in her practice of Falun Gong, she lost her job shortly after former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin launched the persecution of Falun Gong in 1999. Gao made peaceful appeals in Beijing to call for an end to the persecution and was detained by authorities for several months.

http://falungong.org.uk/images/gaorongrong/rongrong_before_c.jpg

http://falungong.org.uk/images/gaorongrong/rongrong_after1_c.jpg

JackInBox
25-06-05, 15:32
I did a search for this on web. Found in Epoch Times.


Torture Victim Gao Rongrong Rearrested and Murdered
Jun 20, 2005
According to a Clearwisdom.net report, on June 16, 2005, after enduring brutal persecution, Ms. Gao Rongrong, 37, died in the emergency room of the First Affiliated Hospital of China Medical University in Shenyang City, Liaoning Province. Ms. Gaofs body is currently at the Wenguantun Funeral Home in Shenyang City. The authority is pressuring Gaofs family to cremate her body quickly, in order to destroy all evidences of their crimes.... MORE...http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-6-20/29680.html



http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-6-20/29680.html

lexico
25-06-05, 17:24
On October 5, 2005, a group of Falun Gong practitioners courageously rescued Gao, and exposed her photos to the world.There seems to be an error in the date.

2004N105Cuuݐ义lm帮摆E监ցBThe date of rescue was October 5. 2004 acc. to the Chinese article.

These are the people who helped Gao Rongrong escape; now they themselves have become victims. From Help Rescue Gao Rongrong and the Practitioners Who Assisted Her Escape from Imprisonment, Wednesday 01 June 2005 (http://www.falungong.org.uk/article.php?sid=249&PHPSESSID=44178d39303f04943b4acb44a4972e1d)

"The practitioners who rescued Gao Rongrong earlier are now under persecution also."
...
We must stop the persecution of Gao Rongrong and her rescuers.

Information about the situation of the practitioners who helped Ms. Gao escape:

Ms. Dong Jingzhe (32 years old, an advertising designer) is now imprisoned in the Masanjia Forced Labour Camp. She has been on a hunger strike for over two months in protest. After being forced to have an intravenous drip (probably some virulent drug), Ms. Dong's lower limbs have become paralysed. She can no longer take care of herself and she is in critical condition.

Ms. Dong Jingya (an architect), Dong Jingzhe's elder sister, is now under persecution in Masanjia Forced Labour Camp.

Ms. Zhang Lirong was arrested and sent to a local police station. The policemen injected her with an unknown drug that caused her to feel sick and constantly dizzy. She is still being held in Masanjia Forced Labour Camp and suffering ongoing persecution.

Ms. Sui Hua is now imprisoned in Masanjia Forced Labour Camp. When she was in a local police station, the policemen injected her with an unknown drug. After that, her legs have been in constant pain. Currently, she has difficulty walking. Another practitioner, Zheng Shoujun, was also forcefully injected with some unknown drugs.

Mr. Sun Shiyou (33 years old, an advertising company project manager), Dong Jingzhe's husband, has been staging a hunger strike for over 2 months to resist the persecution. He is now suffering abuse in the Masanjia Prison hospital.

Mr. Feng Gang is now suffering persecution in Dabei Prison Hospital.

Mr. Liu Qingming and Mr. Ma Yuping are now imprisoned in the Shenxin Forced Labour Camp, where they are suffering ongoing persecution.Since the report of June 1, Ms. Gao is dead, but the rescuers are still alive. International attention on Ms. could not save her from being arrested for the second time. What about her 9 rescuers: will they survive ? :souka:

TuskCracker
26-06-05, 00:33
What do the Chinese say about this. We can say "Freedom, Did Not Come Free"

lexico
26-06-05, 00:54
Recently Microsoft agreed to install security measures (censorship) in their MSN Blogging Service for users in the People's Republic of China; in other words Bill Gates has agreed to and is supporting the oppressive policies of Jiang Zemin on Falun gong and other 'unwanted elements' in the PRC for a couple of more bucks. :(

I think to challenge any Chinese member on the forum to be responsible for the death of Gao Rongrong and to rise up against their oppressive government is quite unfair as all of them are unarmed and unorganized except through (if they are reluctant members of) the Chinese Communist Party.

It is very unfair because they too are victims unless you can prove that any particular member works for the security branch of the government.

It is also EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to demand an uprising.

How can anyone know you do not represent the CCP or any org. tracking down dissidents ?

Can you be responsible for any Japan Reference member who might comment on this incident and thereby suffer any persecution ?

Please show some respect for the innocent Chinese citizens if you care that much for Gao Rongrong.

It is my firmly grounded belief that the person is not the same as the flag of residence (that would be illogical, wouldn't it ?), nor is the government the same as the flag.

I would very much appreciate your toning down of your post: it comes across as highly arrogant and inflammatory. Please be reminded that you are talking to the victims.

I hear Jiang Zemin's men are all over the globe bribing and terrorizing govenrmental officials and citizens, so you could help by writing to you lawmakers to crack down on PRC security operatives in the US with extreme prejudice, and never to bend the principles stated in the Universal Decalration of Human Rights before any kind of offer or threat from them.

You could also help by writing to Microsoft objecting to their being part of violations of human rights in the PRC.

I thank you on behalf of my friends in China for your genuine concern for their human rights.

RockLee
26-06-05, 01:53
Recently Microsoft agreed to install security measures (censorship) in their MSN Blogging Service for users in the People's Republic of China; in other words Bill Gates has agreed to and is supporting the oppressive policies of Jiang Zhemin on Falun gong and other 'unwanted elements' in the PRC.

I think to challenge any Chinese member on the forum to be responsible for the death of Gao Rongrong and to rise up against their oppressive government is quite unfair as all of them are unarmed and unorganized except through, and if their are reluctant members of, the Chinese Communist Party.

It is very unfair because they too are victims unless you can prove that any particular member works for the security branch of the government.

It is also EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to demand an uprising.

How can anyone know you do not represent the CCP or any org. tracking down dissidents ?

Can you be responsible for any Japan Reference member who might comment on this incident and thereby suffer any persecution ?

Please show some respect for the innocent Chinese citizens if you care that much for Gao Rongrong.

It is my firmly grounded belief that the person is not the same as the flag of residence (that would be illogical, wouldn't it ?), nor is the government the same as the flag.

I would very much appreciate your toning down you post: it comes across as highly arrogant and inflammatory. Please be reminded that you are talking to the victims.

I hear Jiang Zhemin's men are all over the place, so you could help by writing to you lawmakers to crack down on PRC security operatives in the US with extreme prejudice, and never to bend the principles stated in the Universal Decalration of Human Rights before any kind of offer or threat from them.

You could also help by writing to Microsoft objecting to their being part of violations of human rights in the PRC.

I thank you on behalf of my friends in China for your genuine concern for their human rights.I second that ! Chinese people are not only aware of most of these kind of incidents due to the overexagerated use of censorship in the PRC, most Chinese I know don't know about this because they are not given this information ! Only the residents of Hong Kong have a wider range of sources available :souka:

You simple cannot ask to get the Chinese members involved in this, it might put their safety in danger (happened in the past...)

RockLee
26-06-05, 01:56
What do the Chinese say about this. We can say "Freedom, Did Not Come Free"
How can you fight for things you don't even have knowledge about ? If you did your homework you should know about the censorship throughout China.They simply don't know better,and people who want more freedom get punished for that :(

qwertyu
26-06-05, 11:37
Is this site becoming a propaganda-disseminating target for the Falun Gong? The Epoch Times and the NTDTV are both recent media fronts for the Falun Gong movement. Rick Ross, a religious cult watch mentioned on Wikipedia, has quite extensive coverage. I'm all for religious tolerance but the FLG goes far beyond the "normal" religious practices in describing its founder as a sort of god. It's more like the Moonies or the Branch Davidians.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun290.html

Media as a means for the Falun Gong movement



Patsy Rahn reviews Falun Gong and the media -- and says the movement is as much about salvation as it is about protest

Asia Pacific Media Network/January 28, 2005
By Patsy Rahn




As with other special interest groups, and perhaps more than others, the Falun Gong (FLG) movement has developed ways of using the internet and the media to advocate its cause. FLG goals, influenced by their teachings, inform and influence their presentation of information and news.

After it was banned by the Chinese government in 1999, the FLG used press releases to counteract the official campaign against it. Over the years, the FLG evolved into a protest movement and increased its use of internet and media as protest tools. One protest technique is to hijack Chinese television broadcasts. Followers have, on a number of occasions beginning in 2002, cut into Chinese television cable or satellite signals and replaced programming with FLG videos promoting their views. According to Chinese reports, this included an interruption of the 2002 satellite broadcast of the soccer World Cup game and celebrations of Hong Kong's return to China. In October 2003 another FLG interruption broke into coverage of China's first manned space mission. The content of these videos are meant to counteract government accusations and promote FLG views.

In the West, where the group is free to organize and freedom of the press is far greater, the FLG do much advocacy work through the press. In 2004 questions began to arise over whether certain Western-based organizations, such as newspaper group The Epoch Times and New Tang Dynasty Television (NTDTV), are actually FLG organizations. The Chinese government claims they are propaganda tools for the FLG intended to damage the reputation of the Chinese government. The FLG claim they are independent news organizations.

There does appear to be, at the very least, an intimate association between these groups and the FLG. In early 2004, Li Hongzhi, the founder and spiritual leader of the group, gave his one and only interview since the group was banned to the NTDTV. According to a report in the Far Eastern Economic Review, prominent FLG spokespeople serve as a director for NTDTV and on the board of The Epoch Times; both organizations give the FLG prominent coverage. In addition, both organizations are staffed by volunteers, often FLG followers, whose main jobs are unrelated to journalism.

One reason why the group might deny its association with these news organizations is that Li Hongzhi teaches his followers that they must not be political. This was a good survival tactic while the group was still legal in China. However, it now seems at odds with reality while the group functions as a protest movement outside China. Nonetheless, the group continues to maintain this position. This may partly explain why they deny association with these media organizations notable for their distinctive focus critical of the Chinese government.

Regardless of how one views the control/ownership controversy, it is clear that the FLG organization and its members are producing news and information for public consumption. In the past few years, Mr. Li has encouraged his practitioners to establish their own news organizations in order to get their message out. This might have something to do with the group's gradually increasing dissatisfaction with FLG coverage in mainstream press. Initially, the coverage of the group was mostly sympathetic, frequent and reflected the group's views. Over time, however, followers felt the coverage grew inadequate and failed to reflect their concerns about the magnitude and immediacy of their cause. The solution was to create their own coverage.

What are the goals of the FLG and how might those goals influence the information they present? The one with which we are most familiar is to expose the suppression and alleged mistreatment of Falun Gong practitioners in China and force the Chinese government to rescind its ban. A second goal, in the words of Li Hongzhi, is to "clarify the truth" in order to "save sentient beings." The movement holds that a near-future moment of "rectification" of the universe by the Fa (meaning the great cosmic law) will renew and recreate the cosmos, paving the way for Falun Gong to receive its rightful place as the truth and supreme teaching. With this rectification, those who believe in Falun Gong will be saved and those who do not will perish. This fact requires all practitioners to save others by converting them to Falun Gong or at least convincing them to believe that Falun Gong is good. This task is, as Mr. Li described it, "the responsibility and mission history has bestowed upon you in fa-rectification&you are now their only hope of entering the future." Following the beliefs of FLG is no less a task than saving the world's people while also saving yourself.

qwertyu
26-06-05, 11:44
cont'd

In general, American acceptance and support of the group is largely based on its recognition as a human rights movement rather than on Mr. Li's spiritual teachings. As such, the group receives greater acceptance for its political message than for its salvational one -- a disparity that gives rise to some frustration. Talking to his disciples, Mr. Li declared:

When clarifying the truth, have you discovered a problem? They can accept everything when you talk about people being persecuted. Talk about freedom of belief getting trampled, the violation of human rights and so on, and they can accept it all, but as soon as you talk about the truths of the Fa they're blocked.

For the Falun Gong, human rights issues, aside from being vital in their own right, are nevertheless the ones that catch the attention of those needing to be saved. According to Li:

When you're clarifying the facts, if you go above the human principles by just one little bit, people won't be able to accept it. So when you're clarifying facts, you must not talk about high-level things. What you know are things that Gods should know. Those things are what I taught to you, not worldly people. So you shouldn't tell those things to ordinary people. You can only talk about our being persecuted, about our real situation, about our being good people and being wrongly persecuted, about our freedom of belief being violated, about our human rights being violated. They can accept all these things and then will immediately support and express to you their sympathy&Of course, what's going on is, your intention to turn him into a Dafa disciple& [however] Our number one task at this time is to help him learn the truth.

The FLG is also frustrated by what it sees as the "fa|ade of China's economy." They feel that a fascination with China's rapid development and the opportunities it seems to promise are proving so attractive to governments and individuals that China's human rights violations are being ignored. In Li's words: "Why is it that in the international community so many media outlets and governments are all so quiet on this [persecution of FLG], and why are they able to look the other way in the face of this catastrophe? They have a lot of vested interests and a lot to gain wrapped up in this." Falun Gong followers therefore see a growing Chinese economy and the country's rise in international importance as a hindrance to their campaign to gain the support from foreign private individuals, businesses and governments.

The group's use of media therefore, now combines both political and a spiritual goals. The more people who support its cause, the more hope of forcing an end to the ban in China. At the same time, the more who become followers or supporters, the more the group has succeeded in saving the world from the impending final judgment.

Given their goals, what kind of coverage might we expect to see in FLG media? Most importantly, FLG wants to be in the news -- whatever keeps the group highly visible is successful. Reports on the movement's human rights issues seem to accomplish this. FLG also needs to circulate information about the benefits of the group's beliefs and anything that promotes their image as good people in order to attract followers and supporters. A third type of coverage is not so much about the FLG as it is about the Chinese Communist Party -- anything that might convince academics or politicians that the Chinese Communist Party is not worth supporting, even for financial gain, will ultimately help FLG. Finally, they might hope to convince the public that there really is no profit in doing business with China and that the promise of the expanding Chinese economy is but a chimera.

These objectives are all clearly discernible in FLG materials. The recent "Nine Commentaries," published by The Epoch Times Editorial Board, says "The CCP (Chinese Communist Party) rule is the darkest and the most ridiculous page in Chinese history." The reason? The writers say, "Among its unending list of crimes, the vilest must be its persecution of Falun Gong." And the commentaries conclude, "Only without the Chinese Communist Party, does China have hope."

Of course, being a special interest group and trying to get your message across does not necessarily mean the information and news you disseminate is flawed. But, as in any news source, it is helpful to understand the needs and goals of the special interest group producing news and information for public consumption.

TuskCracker
26-06-05, 14:54
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I am not religous, but see the picture. See the torture. Gao Rongrong committed no real crime.

Prove to me the facts are wrong. What was her crime ?

What threat was Gao Rongrong ?

In America we say this; Freedom Did Not Come Free

.

lexico
26-06-05, 16:11
As for turning a personal tragedy into a political agenda, I have mixed feelings. One part of me says it is wrong to use Gao Rongrong's death (torture and murder) for a political end to benefit 1) Falun Gong's cause 2) anti-Chinese interest groups. The other part of me says not to politicize would be a great disservice to Gao Rongrong and other victims like her who were wrongfully accused and mistreated by the PRC's 6-10 Office, National Security Bureau and Public Security Bureau of China since June 10, 1999, that has been persecuting Falun Gong and other dissident groups. Does anyone have the formal charges and interrogation, court, and labor camp details regarding Gao Rongrong ?

As for the conflict between Falun Gong and the CCP-PRC gov't, Wikipedia tries to give an objective account in Falun Gong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong), but I'm very sceptic as to whether that article fulfills that objective with much success; that is not everything is crystal clear. According to wiki,

1) Li Hongzhi who founded the religion in 1992 was embraced by PRC gov'tal org's until April 1999 when a Tianjin Newpaper ran an article criticizing Falun Gong by a Chinese Academy of Science member. Around 1,000 Falun Gong practitioners protested at the local newspaper office demanding a correction and there followed a confrontation involving the police who arrested and brutalized protesters. (Does anyone have the article ?)

2) When on April 25 1999 about 10,000 people gathered at the Central Appeal Office at Foyou street near Zhongnanhai, PRC Gov'tal headquarters, Premier Zhu Rongji promised to resolve the situation within three days. Despite the fact that the practitioners dispersed peacefully, the Chinese media reported that Li Hongzhi's ability to organize a protest in front of the Chinese Communist Party alarmed many senior leaders such as Jiang Zemin.

3) The facts that 'Falun Gong has supposedly 70 million members in China whereas the CCP has only 60 million and that there were practitioners amongst high officials of the government and several high ranking army officers had embraced the practice as well' is also quoted as possible cause of Falun Gong persecution.

4) Since the 2000 Pulitzer Prize willing Ian Johnson Wall Street Journal investigative reports of abuse, the statistics from various sources have been collected:

hundreds of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners detained
more than 100,000 sentenced to forced-labor camps
more than 30,000 documented cases of persecution
2,336 verified cases of death from torture and police brutality as of June 4, 2005

5) As a result of CCP-PRC Govt's persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, the international community condemned in 16 lawsuits in 12 countries charging the former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin and several senior officials with genocide, torture, and crimes against humanity.

6) The support for Falun Gong practitioners' freedoms of speech and religion, however, hasn't been getting unanimous support in the 70 and some countries where it is being practiced. Government reactions range from embracement (United States), to tolerance (Australia), to suspicion (Japan, Indonesia and Singapore), to unconstitutional arrests (France). Arrests in France took place after pressure from Chinese diplomats during Hu Jintao's (China's president) visit to France in 2004. The illegal arrests were later criticized by both French and European politicians. (What kinds of pressures were delivered to France by the Chinese diplomats ?)

7) Response from other religious groups are also mixed; the Roman Catholic Church in Hong Kong is openly sympathetic to Falun Gong. Other churches, however, have accused Falun Gong of being a New Age occult group, and of misrepresenting the teachings of Christianity. (What exactly are the accusations ?)

(source: wikipedia Falun Gong article, in paraphrase)

Although there are controversies as to the specific claims made by Li Hongzhi, is that sufficient cause to detain, brutalize, interrogate, force hard labor on Falun GOng practitioners even unto death ? When some non-Chinese gov'ts are also jumping on the bandwagon to persecute Falun Gong practitioners either through measures strong (arrest, extradition) or mild (discrimination, verbal attacks), how are they justified in these acts ? What can citizens of the unsupportive countries help the victims of conscience in China and abroad ?

qwertyu
26-06-05, 16:34
First of all, you need more than just a bunch of pictures to "prove" anything yourself. I have no idea about this case to comment, but certainly, I won't just take the information from a FLG site and blindly believe it. Maybe Amnesty International has something you can post, and I'm sure there was a brutal crackdown on some FLG members. That doesn't mean that the FLG is a "harmless" organisation without its dark side, without its own agenda, without its own bizarre beliefs and practices different from the hundreds of other taoist/qigong practioners which flourish without problems in China and elsewhere. I read that the FLG first attracted attention when thousands of practioners harassed a scientific journal for calling its beliefs "superstitions". Believe me, to ordinary people, the talk of extra-terrestrials and the founder as an omnipotent god with universal healing powers to be obeyed come across like a cult.

In America, Freedom [whatever it may mean, Religious? Philosophical?] certainly didn't come free, it has cost the lives of 80 adults and children of the Branch Davidians at Waco. If torture really bothers you, since this picture obviously causes you distress, why not stop them in your own backyard where you have a vote in the land of "freedom"? Protest the Pentagon's kidnap-and-torture program known as "extraordinary rendition" which sends thousands of Muslims, most of them innocent of 9/11, to torture centers all over the world. Have you seen THOSE pictures?

Governments have cracked down on cults all over the world, rightly or wrongly, including even the Japanese govt. RickRoss' site is a good resource on those matters. I really don't understand what is served by your thread as I'm not sure what FLG has to do with this site, which is about Japanese affairs. However, many posters quoted the Epoch Times, and from Rick Ross' site, we know it isn't a neutral information disseminator, and others need to know about this biased background.

lexico
26-06-05, 18:59
A Dutch Practitionerfs Experience of Being kidnapped in China, Friday 03 June 2005 (http://www.falungong.org.uk/article.php?sid=250&PHPSESSID=44178d39303f04943b4acb44a4972e1d)
On the morning of the 24th of May, somebody asked me if I had ever heard of Falun Gong.
This person told me that it was difficult nowadays to get a book and he asked whether I knew anything more about it.
I immediately knew that this person worked for the Chinese Government and they were looking for me.
On that day, I thought about leaving immediately.
I hoped I could just take a bus to go anywhere.
But I decided to stay.
On that night, there was a knock on my door.Can anyone verify this account by a Peter Valk from Holland ?
If what he says is true, then whoever is travelling to China better beware; forget everything, everyone you know about Falun Gong before travelling for your safety because someone from the government might want to know what's in your head to arrest you or some more people that you know although they may be totally unrelated to Falun Gong.

RockLee
26-06-05, 21:38
A Dutch Practitionerfs Experience of Being kidnapped in China, Friday 03 June 2005 (http://www.falungong.org.uk/article.php?sid=250&PHPSESSID=44178d39303f04943b4acb44a4972e1d)Can anyone verify this account by a Peter Valk from Holland ?
If what he says is true, then whoever is travelling to China better beware; forget everything, everyone you know about Falun Gong before travelling for your safety because someone from the government might want to know what's in your head to arrest some more people that you know.
Me: Falun Gong???
CH. Government: Yes ! Do you know about it?
Me:Isn't that the religious group who are extremely racist and are a threat to the government?
CH. Government: Yes, that's it !
Me: Nope, never heard of them :?

hehe...well I know I'll have to look out and don't spill everything I know then huh :souka:

TuskCracker
26-06-05, 23:48
Maybe Amnesty International has something you can post, and I'm sure there was a brutal crackdown on some FLG members. That doesn't mean that the FLG is a "harmless" organisation without its dark side, without its own agenda, without its own bizarre beliefs and practices different from the hundreds of other taoist/qigong practioners which flourish without problems in China and elsewhere. I read that the FLG first attracted attention when thousands of practioners harassed a scientific journal for calling its beliefs "superstitions".


In America, Freedom [whatever it may mean, Religious? Philosophical?] certainly didn't come free, it has cost the lives of 80 adults and children of the Branch Davidians at Waco.

Their is something missing here. The "Falun Gong", maybe more cult, than
religion, or spirtual belief. I do not care. And the Branch Davidians, killed police who just tried to arrest someone. It was all public. The two are completely dissimiliar.

The point is the torturing of "Gao Rongrong".

What was her crime ?

What threat was she ?

Are these facts wrong

What are the facts then ?

Why did she die ?

If tortured, are the people who did this charged with a crime ?


_

bossel
27-06-05, 01:31
The point is the torturing of "Gao Rongrong".

What was her crime ?

What threat was she ?

Are these facts wrong

What are the facts then ?

Why did she die ?

If tortured, are the people who did this charged with a crime ?
Yep! Whether FG is good or bad is quite irrelevant to these questions. Justice has to be applied on an individual basis. What has this indivdiual done to deserve such a treatment?

RockLee
27-06-05, 03:36
Yep! Whether FG is good or bad is quite irrelevant to these questions. Justice has to be applied on an individual basis. What has this indivdiual done to deserve such a treatment?
answer : She was a member of Falun Gong.That's the only thing the Chinese government wants to know and is enough reason to do this to her.The government is very afraid of the FG because it could have very bad effects on their little plans.FG is based on a mix of buddistic and Taoist elements.Taoism is something the Chinese governments(during the history of China) don't like.It's a synonym for trouble and rebellion against the authority of the CH. government.It implies that there is no need of a government, that's why they don't like those FG practitioners which could be a possible threat to the government.Afterall, if the people don't want a government, lots of big chiefs will lose their power and jobs. :souka:

qwertyu
27-06-05, 05:46
This case can be any number of hundreds of thousands of cases, if not millions of cases, in the world, of government sanctioned torture from countries ranging from the US, Africa, Latin America, Middle East, Eastern Europe, China, N.Korea, Central Asia, S. E. Asia to Russia. These questions can be asked of millions of innocents who have died or are dying in jails all over. Many of these religious and political groups do not even have the resources of millions of global supporters, sophisticated media organisation or rival superpower backing. Out of sight, out of mind?

There shouldn't be practices of torture in the world, period. It is a serious global problem, and there should be a global effort to eradicate torture. We should then lend our support to Amnesty Intl., the Red Cross, the UN Human Rights Commission and other NGOs to strengthen universal conventions against torture and institute a system of supervision. We should petition our own governments to sign on and end all practices of torture if they practise them.

However, I am wary of specific political agenda to bring down or to blight governments and the dissemination of false information. The FG is engaged in a fight unto death [with hefty support] with the Chinese government and its Epoch Times rhetoric mirrors the CCCP's own efforts against them. It's certainly a vendetta. Is the Chinese govt. uniquely "evil" because of its crackdown on FG as asserted? It is no better than all the other governments, the US, Israel, Egypt, Indonesia, Russia, that practises religion and political repression. In fact, the Epoch Times unequivocally supports Bush and the US wars in Iraq with no mention of US sanctioned torture, many cases of which are harrowing. If the judgement of the cults is irrelevant to how they should be treated, then it is no different with the Branch Davidians. It doesn't mean I agree with their burning, or with the arrest and torture of FG members. I am simply pointing out a universal practice of governments against powerful dissident groups.


There are so many cases of banned non-violent groups and prominent jailed dissidents whose plight should be known. This for example, has more interest, relevance and immediate impact, and it isn't a cult demanding money and loyalty to a god figure:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GF24Df02.html

Should I start threads on them all on the JRef site?

qwertyu
27-06-05, 06:22
My assertion is that all torture should be universally condemned, not just selected cases, and not just particular governments, like China, Russia, N. Korea and Cuba. No government that practises it should be exempt, like the US, Israel or Egypt, simply because they fall on different sides of the political and ideological divide. Otherwise, we are simply partisan hacks playing right along that divide, and our motives are political in nature in targeting specific governments, not universal.

lexico
27-06-05, 08:44
Yep! Whether FG is good or bad is quite irrelevant to these questions. Justice has to be applied on an individual basis. What has this indivdiual done to deserve such a treatment?I second that whole-heartedly. If I may borrow your syntax, whether the PRC, CCP, or the US gov't is good or bad is quite irrelevant in this discussion.
We shall examine individual action in violation of human rights per each victim, per each incident of instigation, per each case of abuse, per each perpetrator; but not in summary or wholesale fashion.
What right do they have to inflict such subhuman treatment on Ms. Gao or any other victim ?
Does anyone reserve the right to deflect attention from Ms. Gao's case ?
We can either prove it pure libel or continue in the absence of such evidence.
I do not believe this has anything to do with China bashing, but if so, should be stopped by all means, for nothing good comes out of a lie. FG, PRC, the US or a forum discussion is no exception imo.

JackInBox
27-06-05, 15:26
Yep! Whether FG is good or bad is quite irrelevant to these questions. Justice has to be applied on an individual basis. What has this indivdiual done to deserve such a treatment?

Can anybody prove these are fake pictures. Can anybody say these facts are wrong for Gao Rongrong.

bossel
28-06-05, 03:22
There shouldn't be practices of torture in the world, period. It is a serious global problem, and there should be a global effort to eradicate torture. We should then lend our support to Amnesty Intl., the Red Cross, the UN Human Rights Commission and other NGOs to strengthen universal conventions against torture and institute a system of supervision. We should petition our own governments to sign on and end all practices of torture if they practise them.
[...]
Is the Chinese govt. uniquely "evil" because of its crackdown on FG as asserted? It is no better than all the other governments, the US, Israel, Egypt, Indonesia, Russia, that practises religion and political repression.

Generally, I can agree with your line of argument here. The problem I have is your strange reaction in this particular case. Because, the same you said now about the PRC government being not alone with using torture & inhumane treatment in its legal system, could be applied to the Japanese government & the question of its treatment of history. Yet, in case of Japan, IIRC, you vehemently argued against any equation.


In fact, the Epoch Times unequivocally supports Bush and the US wars in Iraq with no mention of US sanctioned torture, many cases of which are harrowing. If the judgement of the cults is irrelevant to how they should be treated, then it is no different with the Branch Davidians.
May very well be that the Epoch Times is biased, but in how far does that invalidate the case of Gao Rongrong?

Since you don't trust the E-Times, maybe amnesty will do?
The crackdown on Falun Gong and other so-called ''heretical organizations'' (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA170112000)

The case we discuss here is not included, but you don't want to discuss it, anyway.

qwertyu
29-06-05, 12:24
Because, the same you said now about the PRC government being not alone with using torture & inhumane treatment in its legal system, could be applied to the Japanese government & the question of its treatment of history. Yet, in case of Japan, IIRC, you vehemently argued against any equation.

I would think that the proportion of death and destruction of the Holocaust, in Europe and Asia would set it apart from discourse of "human rights abuses" which include torture, unlawful imprisonment, etc. You can't compare apples and oranges, but apples to apples. I would compare Japan and Germany because of the sheer unprecedented scale of deaths [tens even hundreds of millions in total] and unmatched brutality, which entitle them to be distinguished from other abuses. I would also compare, say, Stalin's excesses with Mao's, but not with Hitler. The context matters.

In no way am I proposing that China's use of torture shouldn't be condemned when they happen. Nor am I suggesting that the FG's spotty record and its leader's shenanigans would nullify their right to demand justice and a fair hearing. This would be the equivalent of those insisting that China cannot protest Japan's revisionism because China's own history texts are less than forthcoming, which is what you are refering to, isn't it?

However, I am questioning why it is suddenly a salient topic on JRef? And I am also raising the point that the FG itself is on a media offensive, and a lot of disinformation and unsubstatiated evidence [eg. China aids the terrorism against the US] are disseminated on Epoch Times. I don't have any problems with them sticking to FG allegations, eg. featuring Cao's and others' stories, but the other "information" appear to be simply no-holds-barred media warfare and propaganda, which to me is highly amusing in its extremity, but who knows, it might work on less skeptical minds. To compare, this current revisionism tirade against Japan is focused specifically on the subject. If the Chinese protestors start straying away from WWII issues and vilify almost everything about Japan, trying to persuade the world how uniquely "evil" it is, I think it should give us some pause about believing everything they claim.

As an illustration, say, I am an American vehemently against capital punishment. Imagine if I were to start a thread about capital punishment in Russia on JRef, posting pictures of a dead female prisoner, her grieving family, etc. demanding why the world would tolerate this brutal practice, while shouting "Freedom!" and denouncing the brutality of the Russian Govt.

The 1st reaction would be, this is a prevalent practice by governments all over, including America's. While it is right to discuss the ignobility of state-sanctioned murder, is the thread really about this or is it to set up Russia as a kind of pinata? I.e., focusing all of our contempt for state-sanctioned murder on one particular country, while ignoring the same in the US, China, Japan, etc.? Also, if I am posting from America and capital punishment bothers me, shouldn't I start doing something I have more influence on in my own country?

And what can I hope to gain from posting this thread, since there are ways to address this through credible international orgs?

If one is objective, this isn't worse than what's happening right now all over the world. In fact, June 26th this year was Amnesty Intl.'s designated day against torture. We should all take a look:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/index.do

qwertyu
29-06-05, 13:14
Can anybody prove these are fake pictures. Can anybody say these facts are wrong for Gao Rongrong.

Can anybody indeed? I read the Epoch Times account. It seems she jumped out of her window after being interrogated and tortured for 7 hours. Could she have sustained her most serious and fatal injuries then, such as the worst bruises in the picture, when she jumped from the 2nd flr? She was arrested at 3.00 May 7th 2004, she jumped in the evening of the same day, but the claim is that her bruises were of electric shocks to her face, when they could very well be bruises from her fall. Also, it is somehow too "convenient" that torturers "shouted" that they were shocking their next victims in their privates so it won't show on the face.

Excuse me for being a bit, um, "anal-retentive", but I was curious enough to google up electrical injuries:

http://www.expertwitness-electric.com/images/images/IFEP_images/Landscape_Jpgs/JPGs_with_Borders/Electrical_Injury%20(SSPathology)_085.jpg

You don't have blood clots on the skin surface in such injuries. Somebody better tell the Epoch Times.

To be absolutely sure, it is better to refer to more credible sources about specific cases. Also, I would take the Epoch Times more seriously if it weren't disseminating a lot of disinformation and extremist nonsense.

Frankly, by asking these series of rhetorical questions, "What right does anyboody have to torture others???", eg., with their obvious answers, the exercise probably isn't to debate but to raise a chorus. My question then, is, towards what end?

qwertyu
29-06-05, 14:37
Sorry, the AI site itself leads with "Torture Day"

http://www.amnesty.org/

I tried looking up more recent cases of FG on AI, but the most recent was in 2002, not exactly the most urgent and salient cause if torture is indeed a problem. There are other pressing global issues, such as war.

I'm out of here. Enjoy the pinata. :-)

qwertyu
29-06-05, 17:20
Ok, just to be sure, I looked up "electric baton" in case the injuries it causes is different from general electrical injury, and isn't it interesting. It seems the electric baton is very popular because NO DISCERNIBLE INJURY can be seen on the tortured. See what I found on an AI site below. If this case really did exist, and strangely enough ignored by all the human rights orgs out there including the ever attentive ones sponsored by the CIA, the leading accusation [Ms. Gao Rongrongfs Face Deformed Due to Seven Hourfs Electric Baton Shocks; n May 7, 2004, Gao Rongrong's face is covered with burns from electric baton shocks.] is false, as the injuries cannot possibly be from electric baton torture. And since this type of torture is so "widespread" according to ET, surely this fact cannot be so mistaken by a source that has heard so many first hand account from the victims. Somebody tell the Epoch Times, please, to review their webpages. This could hurt their credibility!

What about the rest of the story about "thousands dead from persecution"? AI's FG site is a must-read and it indeed documented thousands of arrests, but only 10 deaths in custody [scroll to bottom of report]. Of the 10, with detailed description, names, age, province, etc., at least 1 was a clear boiler room accident [the other 2 FG members present were saved], 2 threw themselves off trains, 1 threw herself off a building, 1 hunger striker died from forced feeding. The rest seem more straightforward torture-induced deaths. Most of this take place from 1999-2000, and AI is at least honest enough to admit that they can't verify that all these allegations by FG are true. That's still unsupportable for 5 possible deaths by torture, but it must be pointed out that there is a great discrepancy between the ET and AI. As for the PCness of banning FG, that's another debate.

I think I am first struck by how "strange" the whole tone of the story sound to be a bit skeptical about its intention, but it really works doesn't it, in triggering the right reaction. Maybe the next "case" presented will have less loop-holes.

It's interesting, though, how ready we are to accept and expect the worse, without question, of the "usual suspects". Remember "the organs harvested from prisoners" hysteria initiated by another prominent Chinese CIA-supported dissident that wasn't? Oh well...


http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/terror_trade_times/ttt_4.htm

"'Stop the beating... electric batons don't leave scars'

"Roberto", a 50-year-old university professor, felt the hail of sticks subside as the Zairian officer commanded his men to stop the beating.

Not because the officer suddenly saw his men were out of control. And not because he had been overcome by a sudden wave of compassion. But because, in the officer's own words, "it will leave scars and we will get complaints from Amnesty International."

Instead, he ordered his men to use an electroshock baton."

Iron Chef
03-07-05, 10:22
Looking back at this thread I saw Qwertyu raise this point:

"However, I am questioning why it is suddenly a salient topic on JRef?"

Just an observation... but it seems to me that you're the one going to great lengths to dismiss, downplay, and deflect this topic from every possible angle. You've already made 9 replies in this thread alone (the last 4 in fact prior to my posting). If you wanted to just let it die... it probably would have done so on its own. 8-)

qwertyu
04-07-05, 07:48
Actually, I don't intend to "kill" it, because unless it veers into a downward spiral of name-calling/bashing, it is worth debating even as to the whys and hows beyond the surface and convention. It always helps to clarify my own thinking/logic and to prompt some googling when challenged and questioned by fellow posters, and I hope I'm returning the same favour!:-) [although at times, a bit too hot-headedly]. I'm curious as to a new slew of much quoted info from Epoch Times, which I mistakenly thought was a comic Taiwan Independence lobby/Jesse Helms/CIA sort of vehicle, and even for myself, it has become a very interesting voyage of discovery, the deeper I dig into the convoluted information about FG, and found links that explained its background and connection to the ET. Such new knowledge is always interesting. Also, although the pictures don't look convincing to me initially because the bruises look more like impact/abrasion, I would never have known that electric batons don't leave scars, but out of curiosity and a challenge from another poster, I looked it up and learned something new about torture from AI.