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Void
08-07-05, 19:26
I`ve decided to open a new thread, since we`ve run off-topic in another



Originally posted by Bramicus


Originally Posted by Void
Those fanatics don`t have the possibilities to produce nuclear weapons.

Once Iran completes its goal of developing nuclear weapons, those fanatics will have the ability to obtain a nuclear weapon.




Originally Posted by Void
As for terrorism, it is outrageous, but it didn`t come from nowhere

I guess we're going away from the original topic here; I'll leave it to the administration whether to move this thread elsewhere now.

As for "where terrorism comes from," it is not hard to find if one doesn't mind speaking politically incorrect truths. In his brilliant book, "Clash of Cultures and the Remaking of World Order," Samuel Huntington speaks of Islam's "bloody borders." There is no Methodist Jihad, there are no Hasidic holy warriors, no Southern Baptist suicide bombers, no Mormon elders preaching the annihilation of members of other faiths. Islam is a warrior religion – the perfect vessel for fanatics, the violence-prone, the envious and haters of all stripes.

But, you might ask, why the recent increase in the level worldwide of terrorist violence? I think the answer to that is clear if you think about it rationally. Al-Qaeda was born not with the birth of Israel, or the intifada, or President Bush's election -- none of those things. Al Qaeda was born when Islamic mujahedin, including Osama bin Laden, drove the Soviet Union from Afghanistan. Of course, they did it with the help of the CIA and other American military support, both covert and overt, but that's not how the Islamic world sees it. They see it as an historic victory over a great nation, harkening back to the fabled days when other great nations fell to Islam. This caused a tremendous revival in religious fundamentalism and in support for what became known as Al Qaeda, that is ongoing today. Every victory against a major nation, every surrender by Western powers, every appeasement, will cause a corresponding increase in the might and ferocity of Al Qaeda and its terrorist allies.

If America abandons Iraq to the international terrorist elements who are besieging it (the great majority of the "insurgents" committing terrorism there are foreign-born Al Qaeda supporters coming in through Syria), then look for a new, more vehement, and much more deadly wave of terrorist acts around the world.




Originally Posted by Void
As for Sep. 11 mentioned in that article I'd say these were not al-Qaeda`s fanatics who committed that


I'm not sure what you mean by that. But if you mean what it sounds like you're saying -- that Al Qaeda did not commit the 9/11 atrocities -- I will take it the same way as if you said "Americans never landed on the moon; it was all a hoax filmed in Hollywood."

Void
08-07-05, 19:33
brief answer to the first part of your post, Bramicus

I think, terrorism was born much earlier. Islamic, probably, at the times of that old man whose name gave us the word "assassin". But it was more likely attitude of one man then the tendency of the religion itself. Maybe, muslim people among JRef can help more on that matter. I don`t know neither Koran, nor history of Islam

As for Christians, they had their terroristic past already - Crusades of all sorts and Inquisition.

after studing some materials i`ll return to that topic

Void
08-07-05, 19:37
I don`t know much about moon, therefore will leave to the scientists to decide. But here some points about Sep. 11 (after rational thinking :biggrin: )

Certainly, only few people can say what really took place back then, and I am not one of them. But what images do we have running in newspapers? Not many of them, and all deal with the consequences of the event, trying to judge it from the point of view glook for the one to whose advantage it wash. Well, let them be, but it is quite unsupported, `cause variouse parties could be found. What else to we have in a media? Again the discription of the consequences, the picture on the surface, which portrays sufferings ot the ones and atrocity of the others.
Every performance has its producer, stage manager, actors, decorations and the viewers. We, surely, know two last ones, but what about the rest. Not much, but we can sketch some of their features after careful analysis of the situation. I`ll try to bring the description of parameters basing it on some works of russian political analyst.

To classify the event – it was the large-scale terroristic special operation.

Void
08-07-05, 19:41
1) Size of operation is determined by a number of participants. What do we have in a situation of Sep. 11? About 20 people directly involved in hijacking the planes (5 per each as minimal efighting entityf). But, obviously, that`s not enough for the entire operation. How many people would make up a eground crewf? Trainers of all sorts, sequrity, suppliers and so on. Maybe, around 100 per group? Maybe, then 400-500 people in general.

That many people can`t keep a secret. Even if they could: they are supposingly al-Queda extremists it would be highly surprising that any secret service didn`t have an informer among them, or even about 5% of agents inside this group

2)Duration. Such operation will take no less than a year to preapare, some say – two. Doesn`t that ring any bell?

The leak in any information system occurs not only because of a big number of participants, but also due to the duration of a signal transmitted. Again, quite, anbelivable, that gthe signalh wasn`t ginterceptedh

3)Quality of operation The most essential part of this analysis.

First
Qualifications of direct actors: that had to be highly intellectual people possessing the skills not only in their gterror`s businessh but also in many other fields – pilotage of airliner (not an geveryday`sh and geveryone`sh job), electronics, IT tech. Btw, one thing to aim a plane at the skyscraper and anothe – at tlhe low building as Pentagon, not a regular job for any airman.
What is the portray of average terrorist-fanatic? Not too old (almost teens), emotionaly unstable, idealistic and not yet learned to treasure any life including his own. Or aged, dissapointed person who does`t care about life anymoe and has nothing left behind. Those are easily turned into religious bigots, but not in professionals described above. OK, imagine that Al-Qaeda had that many of such people, even being fanatical its leaders would certainly find a better use for them than sending to death, `cause to gbreedh them costs much more efforts and money than the terrorists of first type (just go to the nearest village and pick few)
And motives to stop their own (and, probably, successful) lives for these professionals obviously differ from those religionists

Second
What takes it to prepare such people? A long and intensive training, which require joined efforts of many other professionals – psychologists (people with such qualifications are probably all in a list of clandestine organisations), aviators, security staff of all kinds and so on... Al Qaeda has them?

Third
All other people who had to provide the communication, explore the scenes, supply with various goods, hi-tech staff and weapons.

So, one more thing to underline. You can create a training ground in some God forsaken place, shoot there, learn to make bombs, disarm them and such, and stay there unnoticed for quite a long time. But it is impossible to hide when you are planning and preparing operation involving civil aviation. Can anyone say that state`s special servises are that blind at the times when car number can be spotted from the satellite?

Void
08-07-05, 19:49
And one more stroke to the picture.
This was also sort of challenge to Hollywood: well staged and designed show. If you want to bring serious harm you`ll choose different target rather than skyscraper or Pentagon. Modern infrastructure is very vulnerable and enormous area could be brought to the terror and destruction without loss of 20 people. But it wouldn`t be THAT effective.

Islam extremists are not skilled enough in all these fields. Then who? This is very interesting question, but yet without clear answer.

Bramicus
08-07-05, 20:47
Islam extremists are not skilled enough in all these fields [to have carried out the 9/11 attacks]. Then who? This is very interesting question, but yet without clear answer.I'm sorry, but I cannot have an intelligent conversation with someone who seriously believes that the earth is flat, that the moon is made of green cheese, that the Holocaust didn't happen, or (after not only the mountains of evidence, but even their own admission of culpability) that Islamist terrorists didn't plan and execute the 9/11 atrocities.

A couple very good columns by Christopher Hitchens on yesterday's events:
The Anticipated Attack (http://slate.msn.com/id/2122186/) - Thursday, July 7, 2005
WE CANNOT SURRENDER (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15713152&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=07-07--war-on-britain--we-cannot-surrender--name_page.html) - Friday, 8 July 2005

Lacan
08-07-05, 20:51
Do you think the answer could be some major support from a islamic country? :clueless:

Bramicus
08-07-05, 21:03
Of course they (Islamist extremists) have had billions of dollars of financial support from Saudi Arabia and other places (not for specific attacks, but for spreading the Wahhabi doctrine of hate), and possibly plenty of financial support for Al Qaeda itself, but that has nothing to do with whether Al Qaeda committed the attacks, which is as well documented as the fact that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor or that America bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think what Void is alluding to is the conspiracy theories of the Islamist disinformation machine that the real culprits were Israel, George W. Bush, and/or the "International Zionist Conspiracy" (i.e., Jews). It saddens me that there are human beings in the world who would seriously entertain such rubbish.

Lacan
08-07-05, 21:07
When I say "some support", I imply military training facilities and strategists, just like the GIA was supported by the algerian government.

Bramicus
08-07-05, 22:29
Well, we know about the Al Qaeda training facility in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places. But that's a far cry from saying that Al Qaeda didn't do it -- whether they had support from governments or not.

Void
08-07-05, 22:31
I'm sorry, but I cannot have an intelligent conversation with someone who seriously believes that the earth is flat, that the moon is made of green cheese, that the Holocaust didn't happen, or (after not only the mountains of evidence, but even their own admission of culpability) that Islamist terrorists didn't plan and execute the 9/11 atrocities.

nope, the moon is just a pic, painted by some weird artist, there is no cosmos out there, just the trap of your illusions :D

Sorry to disappoint you, but, unfortunately, the world is not just black and white, and to point a finger saing "this is the only threat and this is the culprit!" would be merely naive.
I can plan a lot, i even can get millions of money from some miraculuous source, but even then i can`t bring it to reality if i have no way in and around state`s infrastructure and institutions. Second or third citizen will find me suspicious and...

Don`t bother with this 'christian-zionist' staff, i`d rather believe in masonic plot than that such religious-philosophical mixture is taking place and is taking seriously. :D

It`s more to do with politics and economy, imo, than religion. And in this case you can find the culprit anywhere: starting from Bush and ending with some transnational oil company. Therefore any allusions are empty and unsupported. The question "who does benefit?" gives you no answer, there are plenty of them. Perhaps, we better think where the worlld is going to instead of booing at Al Qaeda, which might be just handy tool.
But people are more comfortable with Al Qaeda threat, `cause it is easily personified and doesn`t take much wit to bother and still lets to follow leaders without asking own questions, being well fed and having warm stall

btw, documents are easily forged :evil:

Bramicus
08-07-05, 23:41
I'm not mad at you for being confused, Void, but whenever I meet someone who believes that kind of ludicrous conspiracy junk, whether it's right wingers worrying about black UN helicopters, leftists thinking GW Bush went to war to help his oil buddies, hate mongers rambling about Zionist plots, or paranoids sure that the Illuminati, neo-Nazis, or the Masons are behind everything (you don't really believe that, do you)... I just have to shake my head. No, nothing is black-and-white, but there are some things that a thinking person who examines the evidence can be sure of.

Ma Cherie
09-07-05, 03:32
I'm not someone who has much knowladge about the subject of terrorism, but you must understand something Void, there had been terrorist attacks long before 9/11. The first terrorist I remembered that happened here in the US was the 1993 bombings in New York, but that attack wasn't all that successful. However, did anyone consider the fact that it was Al-Qaeda? If anyone knew? And if they did know, did anyone care? Then in 1996 Osama Bin Laden declared a holy war on America and the rest of the Western world. And did anyone take the threat seriously? NO! So, 9/11 happened. The wake up call that Al-Qaeda is a real threat. Some of the terrorists lived here in the US, to immerse themselves in our culture. Now, it took eleven years (I'm guessing) to plan 9/11 and that's enough time to learn about the soft spots, the places that would be an easier target. These acts take time and money, and yes they are smart enough to carry them out. I wouldn't think for second that any of this is some sort of a elaborate conspiracy.

jarvis
09-07-05, 07:04
is it true that mohamed considered forein women during war time, booty?

Warlock
19-07-05, 16:19
I think, terrorism was born much earlier. Islamic, probably, at the times of that old man whose name gave us the word "assassin". But it was more likely attitude of one man then the tendency of the religion itself. Maybe, muslim people among JRef can help more on that matter. I don`t know neither Koran, nor history of Islam

As for Christians, they had their terroristic past already - Crusades of all sorts and Inquisition.

well i think the source of the problem is the white supremist of this planet..thats the source of the problem the world seems to ignore or the whites themselves covering up..whether from communism,facism,aparthied,imperialism,colonialism and what so ever, western human beings have always seemed to look down on easterners or humans look down less fairer humans...weaker,uglier and less fortunate..its a characteristic of human nature denied by those who commit them..

even the egyptions pharoahs..the buerocrats seems to be the fairer ones..and the blacks were mere soldiers and slaves..enemies to become slaves..less fortunate ones..some of this unfortunate ones rather battle it out..and fight injustice in this world..this peaplo who dont depend or worshipp gods..only those who are fortunate favour the gods because of their gift and power..for those who are weak just fight you...and fight god and natures unjust ways..


As for "where terrorism comes from," it is not hard to find if one doesn't mind speaking politically incorrect truths. In his brilliant book, "Clash of Cultures and the Remaking of World Order," Samuel Huntington speaks of Islam's "bloody borders." There is no Methodist Jihad, there are no Hasidic holy warriors, no Southern Baptist suicide bombers, no Mormon elders preaching the annihilation of members of other faiths. Islam is a warrior religion – the perfect vessel for fanatics, the violence-prone, the envious and haters of all stripes.

its true islam is just a vessel..they are not muslims but merely using the tool to acomplished what nature has plotted..they do not believe in Allah..only revenge..
why is it some peaplo are choosen to be strong and cunning and to exlpoit others just for entertainment..why are they here for..to be merely ravaged,enslaved and exploited across a momment of time to die for...for others perhaps..humans just keep exlpoiting each other..the weak die and the strong live...this is a rule of nature that hasnt changed at all..and to all those self righteous fools who think so..be they philosophers or scholars all fools...are they just here as a vessel too..or perhaps a decorative objects to be used and expoited..is this the world in which we have lived..there is no morality..

across time..even greeks have looked down on lesser existence..romans and europeans.. even in japan..the fairer the better..geishas are fairer..and in southeast asia..chinese who are fairer than polynesians dominate the economy..and most of all fools who worshipp them..just as the japanese and the asians and the middle eastern and lesser ones look up to the west..why these fools?even in society..peaplo look up to the most beutiful and strongest..and that will be their doom...

as so is DEMOCRACY..you foolish humans pick your leaders to ravage and exlpoit these world..while you sit back an put the blame on your leaders and past just like JAPAN and AMERICA..you will never be forgiven..

Iron Chef
19-07-05, 16:28
Down with Whitey! :wave: Err... sorry, you lost me after that...

Dutch Baka
27-08-05, 00:52
Al-Qaida preparing to attack Tokyo or other Asian city: Financial Times

TOKYO \ France's top terrorist investigator has warned that Al-Qaida is preparing an attack on a big financial center in Asia such as Tokyo, Sydney or Singapore, to undermine investor confidence in the region, the Financial Times newspaper reported Friday.

"We have several elements of information that make us think that countries in this region, especially Japan, could have been targeted," Jean-Louis Bruguiere told the British paper. "Any attack on a financial market, like Japan, would mechanically have an important economic impact on the confidence of investors," Bruguiere said. "Other countries in this region such as Singapore and Australia are also potential targets."

© 2005 Kyodo News. All rights reserved. No reproduction or republication without written permission.

sometimes i wonder how serieus we should take treaths.. cause there are treads coming in everyday... also here in amsterdam, the terrorist from madrid, and the london attacks * istanbull to isnt?* treath amsterdam with attacks on its city transport.. nothing happen yet, but when? it is scary terrorisme, cause you dont know when to expect it, and where...

people say there happy there not living in a war, but isnt the whole world lving in a war at the moment? there is fear everywhere, what is next, the U.S? england, Japan? its sure it will happen again.. just the qeustion is where and when?